IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #11

[BethInAK]

Respectfully BBM

Now, that's a native New Yorker [not a transplant].

haha!! Kidnapper Syd is actually from Brooklyn originally, but it was a different world then, I think.

 

[BethInAK]

Sapphire wasn't far off on this one. It's my story she was reacting to. This man stood in a pool, never swam. He never took his eyes off of us. Eventually, my older son and I moved to the hot tub. Only then did the man move and he came closer to us. He's still in the pool, standing, watching us. I kept looking toward the pool to check my younger children and he was always in my eye line. My son got out of the hot tub and within a minute the man came and got in with me. (My Olympic-jump over the side as he came down the steps was my feat for 2012.) I walked over to faux speak to my children and he got back out, took the same position against the end of the pool and proceeded to stare. So we left.

My son is 12 and, while polite and smart, is usually not surveying the area for perps. However, today he was the one who noticed the man first and it made him feel uncomfortable.

I don't think anyone is saying to avoid all males. My kids are mannered and will chat and be friendly. But in my quiet little town, there is one sex offender out of a long list who assaulted an adult. The rest were on children. Many of their profiles are inaccurate as to where they live and work. One is a woman, all the rest are men. And many, way too many, come here directly from Hunstville. I'm not sure why. We're a big tourist spot and if you were to visit, you'd never think RSO or unsafe town.

So while we're not rude, we're very aware. And if we feel creeped out, we're not staying.

It sounds like the guy had a crush on you and wanted to get to know you, maybe, and not your kids.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Never travel to Russia, GrainneDhu. It is not considered to be rude in Russia to stare at people.

I think my travelling time is over but I thank you for the warning.

Oddly enough, having to use a wheelchair when in public (not always, it depends on the day) has had an anti-staring effect.

My theory is that most people don't want to be caught staring at someone who is so obviously different, so they over-compensate.

There's very little that is so bad that there is no good to it.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Here is another case where ONE man managed to lure and abduct two girls.
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/p/pallett_cinda.html

Just clicking around on links from that page, that guy seemed to have a preference for two victims at once.

He was also a suspect in the case of Carlene Brown and Christy Gross, friends who disappeared at the same time.

 

[GrainneDhu]

This is HORRIBLE.
Horrible and sexist. To treat a man who likes children as a pedophile is horrible.
I am thankful i live in a city where if my husband and i start up a conversation with a child we don't know in the cart in front of us at the supermarket, the mother smiles

Oddly enough, my husband has no particular interest in children (raising one cured him of it!) but he must exude something that attracts children. Whatever it is, it also attracts dogs and cats. He never approaches children but they are drawn to him like iron filings to a magnet.

Like you, I'm glad we live in a small town where no one gets warped out of shape if their small child runs up to talk to my husband. Kids tell him all kinds of stuff, it's amazing.

Well, maybe I do know what it is about him. To me, he has always simply reeked of trustworthy, from the very first time we met online (we met online back in 1994, when it wasn't very common). So I shouldn't be surprised if children sense it as well.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Regarding Evansdale and its relation to Waterloo:

Waterloo is a city of 68,000 It's not not super dense like Hong Kong, but it's not as spread out as some places either. Again, I don't know exactly, but I would guess, just going by what's happened with a lot of larger towns and cities in Iowa that as Waterloo and other towns in the area have grown due to urban and suburban sprawl they now abut each other directly. So say thirty years ago, if you wanted to get from Waterloo to any of the surrounding towns, you got on the road and drove fifteen or twenty minutes through cornfields. Now, you hop on the interstate highway and go from downtown Waterloo to the River Forest Road exit leading into Evansdale in say five minutes.

I don't know about Evansdale in particular but I do know that there are a few Iowa cities that developed suburbs because potential property owners didn't like the property taxes in the city. So a smart developer would buy land, build houses and incorporate real quick, so the larger city couldn't swallow it up.

Voila! Instant suburb and property tax haven.

 

[HeinekenMan]

Oddly enough, my husband has no particular interest in children (raising one cured him of it!) but he must exude something that attracts children. Whatever it is, it also attracts dogs and cats. He never approaches children but they are drawn to him like iron filings to a magnet.

Like you, I'm glad we live in a small town where no one gets warped out of shape if their small child runs up to talk to my husband. Kids tell him all kinds of stuff, it's amazing.

Well, maybe I do know what it is about him. To me, he has always simply reeked of trustworthy, from the very first time we met online (we met online back in 1994, when it wasn't very common). So I shouldn't be surprised if children sense it as well.

We have a few things in common. First, I met my wife online in 1998. You have me beat, which is quite an achievement. There weren't many people online at all in 1994. I found an old website with links to webpages built by friends I met back then on Yahoo Chat. Almost every website is no longer working, and they're all built with the most basic HTML code.

Secondly, I'm very approachable and people don't seem to have much hesitation in talking to me. I guess I seem innocent and non-threatening. And that's pretty much the case. I don't know how people pick up on that. Sometimes, I think I'd have more luck in certain situations if I could convince people that I'm a tough guy.

 

[GrainneDhu]

In the us, a man cannot get arrested for looking at kids in a public place. Trust me I do it all the time. I even befriend kids in a public place. When my kid was away with my parents (in your fair country) I talked to kids all the time, because I missed my own.

And if that was a "more innocent time" then the Beaumont kids wouldn't have dissapeared.

I DO appreciate people looking after my kid and his safety. All people, men and women. however, it's my job, and i take it pretty seriously. but that doesn't include thinking every friendly male wants to kidnap or molest him.

Teaching a child that all strangers are bad (or all adult males are bad) can seriously affect that child's ability to seek out help when needed.

I remember one lost child search where the dog handlers became puzzled because the child's movements were strange. The behaviour of victims usually follows predictable behaviours and this child just wasn't displaying any of these behaviours.

In fact, the child's track as revealed by the dog seemed to indicate the child was actively trying to avoid searchers.

And yep, that was exactly accurate. The dogs weren't mistaken. When they finally managed to trap the child, he told searchers that even though he was hungry, thirsty, lonely and just wanted his parents, he'd been taught never to approach a stranger. Since the searchers were strangers, he avoided them.

Similarly, I'd hate to think of a child who'd been captured by an abductor afraid to approach me or my husband in public for help because we're strangers.

I will say that I've intervened for children of mothers having a meltdown in public and never been rebuffed but I think it's because I start out by expressing empathy for the mother first. I say something like "oh my, sometimes children can be just the last straw... can I watch your child so you can have a moment of peace?"

Invariably, the mother who had been screaming, threatening or borderline for handling too roughly (strictly in my opinion) bursts into tears while I entertain the child and give her a chance to pull herself together. A few times, I've ended up with a child holding onto my leg and the mother on my shoulder.

If I lived in a larger city, I suppose I'd be running a risk of being seen as a potential abductor.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Not funny. I do drive a white van, a high top chevy van. But I have a handicapped son, so it has a wheelchair lift on the side. Its white yet grey .

I felt a bit defensive too, since I used to have a white minivan.

When you posted that you were going to go over to Evansdale, I started having this funny fantasy of two amateur sleuths in town at the same time ending up sleuthing each other because to each, the behaviour of the other seemed so strange.

I even thought "wouldn't it be funny if they were amateur sleuths on two different web forums? There could be two web forums with hot discussions going on about the creepy person sighted in Evansdale!"

But it sounds like you may have spotted a truly creepy person, that RSO.

 

[GrainneDhu]

:fence:

No she went home and looked at ALL of the RSO's in the area of Waterloo and Evansdale and picked him out by his photo. Then called police.

This is not intended as criticism of anyone, least of all cindersoot. I don't even know how cindersoot conducted her look through the RSO photos, so this cannot possibly be aimed at her. This is just informational.

There is research that shows that witnesses are more likely to identify someone in a photo or in person lineup if they are presented as a group rather than one at a time.

Just saying that the perp might not be in the group is not enough.

The best procedure is to present each photo or individual separately and not to tell the witness in advance how many photos or individuals there are in the group. The ideal presenter is someone who does not know which photo or individual is the suspect.

When photos or individuals are presented in a group, witnesses tend to look for the photo or person who resembles most closely the one in their memory. By looking that way, the witness is almost certain to pick someone out of the photo or live lineup.

But if the photos or individuals are presented one at a time, the witness can only compare them to the image in their memory and not to each other.

Cindersoot's experience just brought that to mind. It's interesting to me that something seemingly so simple and minor can make such a difference to results.

 

[GrainneDhu]

It took me awhile to find this video again. Thought I'd share it here. I had mentioned it before but didn't have the link handy. Seems relevent again now as we are talking about RSOs. LE sure cleared those 200+ RSOs very quickly. This video also addresses the effects that meth can have on users.

Abduction fear grows for missing Iowa cousins (w/ JVM)

Abduction fear grows for missing Iowa cousins - YouTube

There are about 200 RSOs in the Waterloo/Cedar Falls metro area. I'm not certain that LE cleared all of those in one weekend.

There are only about 10 RSOs in Evansdale itself. I can easily believe LE cleared them in a weekend because the time period in question was during normal working hours. Most or all of them would have been at work and so would have had easily verifiable alibis.

 

[GrainneDhu]

We have a few things in common. First, I met my wife online in 1998. You have me beat, which is quite an achievement. There weren't many people online at all in 1994. I found an old website with links to webpages built by friends I met back then on Yahoo Chat. Almost every website is no longer working, and they're all built with the most basic HTML code.

Secondly, I'm very approachable and people don't seem to have much hesitation in talking to me. I guess I seem innocent and non-threatening. And that's pretty much the case. I don't know how people pick up on that. Sometimes, I think I'd have more luck in certain situations if I could convince people that I'm a tough guy.

Firstly, congratulations! You and your wife are coming up on 14 years together (that's 4 Hollywood marriages, as my family jokes).

I think you and my husband must be very similar. I see it over and over--people, particularly children, are just drawn to him.

 

[nikb]

Firstly, congratulations! You and your wife are coming up on 14 years together (that's 4 Hollywood marriages, as my family jokes).

I think you and my husband must be very similar. I see it over and over--people, particularly children, are just drawn to him.

OMG I swear we're twins. Even the time spent in the wheelchair(s) and our husbands' personality types. It was actually freaking me out! Are you following me? lol

Sorry back to the girls...

 

[writer7]

We have a few things in common. First, I met my wife online in 1998. You have me beat, which is quite an achievement. There weren't many people online at all in 1994. I found an old website with links to webpages built by friends I met back then on Yahoo Chat. Almost every website is no longer working, and they're all built with the most basic HTML code.

Secondly, I'm very approachable and people don't seem to have much hesitation in talking to me. I guess I seem innocent and non-threatening. And that's pretty much the case. I don't know how people pick up on that. Sometimes, I think I'd have more luck in certain situations if I could convince people that I'm a tough guy.

Aw! Good for you.

I'm the girl TSA always pulls out for random checks. I wondered if I looked too much like an IRA member, but one lady actually said to me, "You seem so laid back that you looked like you wouldn't complain about it"

Kids chat with me, cats follow me, and recently two fawns have come out of the woods to watch and play nearby while I walk my dogs in the evenings. I'm not kidding! Approachable? Uh-huh

Unfortunately, I'm also a total magnet for creepy stalkers. Especially schizophrenic ones who think we are together (two of them so far, one who tried to literally kidnap me from an all-night diner... with my 6'3" 265 lb fiance right there!). Count your blessings that creepy stalkers are much less often women or children

 

[writer7]

OK, back to the girls. I keep hearing folks say that the timeline is too tight with the cyclist's siting of the bikes. I think the girls really may have been through the gate, and either in the brush naturally or even hiding because they knew it was a restricted area.

That opens up the timeline considerably.

I don't think they biked around more, but I do wonder how long they stayed by that secluded part of the park?

I think that someone already at the park might have noticed them and had time to think of a plan. IMHO, he probably moved his vehicle from a normal parking spot to the hidden spots by the bikes.

My other theory remains that it could have been a neighbor by the lake or someone else who happened upon them naturally riding to the secluded part that day and saw them from a road. If they often turned around on Lake, maybe the person is even the one who directed them to that spot by the lake (to fish, paddle boat, whatever -- a lure).

So I think it could have been a chance thing. I don't think it could have been a complete stranger to the area. That hidden car path alone indicates that the person knew the lake well. Unless he could have pulled up on the grass and not been noticed. I don't know how possible that is?

 

[nikb]

OK, back to the girls. I keep hearing folks say that the timeline is too tight with the cyclist's siting of the bikes. I think the girls really may have been through the gate, and either in the brush naturally or even hiding because they knew it was a restricted area.

That opens up the timeline considerably.

I don't think they biked around more, but I do wonder how long they stayed by that secluded part of the park?

I think that someone already at the park might have noticed them and had time to think of a plan. IMHO, he probably moved his vehicle from a normal parking spot to the hidden spots by the bikes.

My other theory remains that it could have been a neighbor by the lake or someone else who happened upon them naturally riding to the secluded part that day and saw them from a road. If they often turned around on Lake, maybe the person is even the one who directed them to that spot by the lake (to fish, paddle boat, whatever -- a lure).

So I think it could have been a chance thing. I don't think it could have been a complete stranger to the area. That hidden car path alone indicates that the person knew the lake well. Unless he could have pulled up on the grass and not been noticed. I don't know how possible that is?

sorry to get so off track and thanks for reminding us about what's most important. I so badly want to see these girls home.

 

[GrainneDhu]

OK, back to the girls. I keep hearing folks say that the timeline is too tight with the cyclist's siting of the bikes. I think the girls really may have been through the gate, and either in the brush naturally or even hiding because they knew it was a restricted area.

That opens up the timeline considerably.

I don't think they biked around more, but I do wonder how long they stayed by that secluded part of the park?

I think that someone already at the park might have noticed them and had time to think of a plan. IMHO, he probably moved his vehicle from a normal parking spot to the hidden spots by the bikes.

My other theory remains that it could have been a neighbor by the lake or someone else who happened upon them naturally riding to the secluded part that day and saw them from a road. If they often turned around on Lake, maybe the person is even the one who directed them to that spot by the lake (to fish, paddle boat, whatever -- a lure).

So I think it could have been a chance thing. I don't think it could have been a complete stranger to the area. That hidden car path alone indicates that the person knew the lake well. Unless he could have pulled up on the grass and not been noticed. I don't know how possible that is?

I think much the same as you, except that I don't think the girls ever went through the gate in the fence.

According to Ollipop, before the lake was drained, the distance between the lakeshore and the fence varied from about a foot to several feet. If I recall correctly, at the gate, the available ground to walk on was only about a foot wide.

The only easy thing to do from the gate would be to walk out to the little jetty built over the drainage/sluice from the lake.

Otherwise, walking (or tiptoeing) along the lake side of the fence would carry a high risk of stepping off into the water. Which was actually quite shallow at that point but infested with leeches. Leeches are not uncommon in Iowa, particularly in surface water without current or with very low current.

Even when I was an exploratory, definitely not a girly-girl kid, leeches were right off my list of acceptable conditions for adventure. I was willing to risk the rats said to live inside the storm drain system but not leeches. I can't imagine any kid being willing to risk sticking body parts into leech infested waters.

I keep thinking that it was probably the spot that had been selected, rather than the victims. The traffic pattern was good--according to Ollipop, before this happened, the traffic on the bike path was probably 5-10 people an hour, counting both directions.

That's enough frequency to choose from but enough time between users to give a predator a chance to strike without being seen.

I do think the girls were probably back in the trees and underbrush when someone else went by (either TG or some other user). But I think that rather than hiding, they were terrified into silence.

 

[TGIRecovered]

When I was a kid, my sister and I played in our front yard quite a bit. When we saw someone walking down the street toward our house or a car about to drive by, we would run and hide behind the bushes on the porch. It started out as make-believe it was bad guys after us, but truly we were a little bit scared and it was fun to see who could hide the fastest. Maybe we were weird, I know we were much less worldly-wise than kids today.

I wonder if the girls felt spooked out, riding through the secluded section of the path? If they saw or heard TG coming on his bike, maybe they ditched their bikes and hid from him. Maybe when they were hiding, someone else found them.

MOO

 

[webaddict]

sorry to get so off track and thanks for reminding us about what's most important. I so badly want to see these girls home.

for whatever it is worth, i kinda enjoyed those moments "off track!" this has been so intense for everyone. we ALL so desperately want to see those little girls come home.

i, too, am married to one of those men children are drawn to. our first year of marriage, neighbor kids used to come to my door and ask me if he could come out and play with them i think they just liked having someone else to "turn" the jumprope!

i also wanted to comment on the lady who offers a moment of peace to moms having meltdowns with their kids in the store. i tried to find it back but i am currently on bedrest, surfing the internet flat on my back (see how desperate i am to see these girls found?!) so i'm not going back to each page to quote it. i just wanted to say that is so cool of her to do that. talk about random kindness! if more women did that, instead of giving those moms glaring looks for not having their kids under control, it would be such a blessing to all involved! kudos to you!

praying for the girls.....and reminding myself to never buy a white van :floorlaugh:

 

[TGIRecovered]

:seeya:I see we have 11 guests here this morning. Hello!

If anyone is local to the Evansdale area, you should think about signing up so you can post.

This is a very friendly forum and the mods do a wonderful job of keeping us in line. Our Terms of Service Rules include being respectful of victims and their families, respectful of other's opinions, and documenting facts with a mainstream media link or official law enforcement source, so we don't get bogged down with rumors and gossip. Anyone wishing to post local information or as a family member or friend of a victim can post without a msm link by asking to be verified. (They just check your info to be sure that you are who you say you are but you still use your nickname on the forum, no one else gets your private info.)