IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #17

[CN2Souls]

I'm going to ask this once again. Would the dogs detect the girls scent if the girls weren't at the lake but the perp (who has the smell of the girls on him from grabbing,or carrying them) be detected by the dogs? If the perp did stage the bikes.

I think a SAR's person may have an answer to this,

However, I know here at our sheriff’s office,

There have been cases where if a victim has sweat or been in great anguish a perpetrator had walked through that area where the victim had been assaulted and tracked the victims scent for another 20 yards.

In addition, they have dogs that can pick up scent of fear or anguish that a victim might be experiencing at the site of abduction or crime scene. And the handler and LE can tell “somewhat “ what the victim was feeling…

Like if a little girl was abducted and the dogs are brought to the spot she went missing from, the dogs would be able to know if the little girl was not afraid and went willing think something good was going to happen or she knew the person, or if she was afraid and it was a stranger

the dogs would be able to smell that.



MOOO

 

[GrainneDhu]

Thanks for this article, HeavenLeigh! Lots of info here that's new to me.
BBFox -

NEW & DETAILED ARTICLE!
On a recent Wednesday afternoon, as the case of two missing cousins entered its third week, officers descended on an Elk Run Heights home.

Marked sheriff’s office squad cars pulled up with two nondescript passenger cars in tow. Uniformed deputies took up positions around the house. Plainclothes detectives and FBI agents knocked at the door.

They talked with the resident and checked in an old camping trailer in the backyard.

Then the lawmen left. The whole episode took about 45 minutes."snipped" <re-snipped by FoxB.>

Since the resident and house number are unidentified in the article, I hope it's acceptable for me to comment and/or ask questions here. What does "two...passenger cars in tow...." indicate to you guys? Might the PD have been returning cars which they had taken into station to search? I wish the article had mentioned if the PD left the two towed cars at the residence when they left.

The subject article also mentions that a "trained team" recently scoured a wooded area along Elk Run Creek. Does anybody know if there were search dogs on site? If there were, I wonder what their search specialty is.

As of a couple years ago, I know Black Hawk County Sheriff's Department had two dogs, both cross trained for SAR and HRD.

I don't know if the dogs were on site for that particular search.

 

[hambirg]

What and who.
Something wascimportant enough to Lyric that made her want to haul butt.....even though she knew she and Lizzy had to be home soon.
When I look at it this way, a 10 year old girl.....would rush to meet a boy, :what::moo:

Sorry, I'm still trying to catch up. I keep seeing this and I'm wondering how we know Lyric was interested in boys. My youngest is 10 and she isn't interested in boys at all yet. I don't think my oldest was at the age either. . .closer to 12ish IIRC.

Anyway, I just don't want to assume that is true, because I still think 10 is a little young. Maybe when Lyric was out with her older cousins, but I can't see a boy being the lure when she was out with an 8yr old. However, I can see it being something else. . .a phone, IPad, puppy, etc.

MOO

ETA_ I'm still favoring that the girls didn't rush to the lake and they were taken somewhere close to Brovan. It sounds like Lizzie was a talker. I think they could have been watched, then approached and lured over to a van. What if after a short convo someone offered to help them with their bikes. . .I'll adjust your seat for you, tighten your breaks, etc. Just come over here to my van where my tools are. . .. ??

It's just a thought.

 

[GrainneDhu]

This is very true. I am married to an alcoholic, 19 years sober, who went to rehab once and never relapsed.

When I asked him why he thought he was able to get sober with, according to him, less effort than he imagined it would take, he said "Because I was sick of being sick and I wasn't doing it because someone said I had to."

He said that waking up each morning and not vomiting was most of the motivation he needed to never take another drink.

I know it's different with everyone, but for him, the time was right and the decision was his.

I'm old enough that I can remember a time when it didn't raise an eyebrow for a parent to start their child smoking, which is how my husband began smoking (he was born and raised in California).

I knew he was a smoker before we met and I never pressured him to quit. I knew he'd tried to quit several times before we met and he had never succeeded. When any of our friends or families told him directly or indirectly he should quit, I said something along the lines of STFU, it is none of your business.

A few years ago, he was finally ready and confident enough to quit, so I steered him to his doctor for a prescription and told him that I'd be happy if he'd quit and I'd be just as happy if he didn't quit because I love him.

He quit, it was relatively painless and he hasn't smoked since.

For some people, attempts to shame or guilt them into quitting their addiction just backfire. Giving them the room to attempt and fail without recriminations is what is most helpful for some people.

Different people are, well, different.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Yeah...another new article! This one is dated today. Looks like things are starting to pick up on this brd.

If I understood your comment correctly, then I want to add that it's been my understanding over the years that cadaver dogs can tell the difference between "animal" and human remains. (I am not saying that cadaver dogs have been brought into the search for our two little girls.)

Yes HRD dogs can and yes they have (starting 14 July).

 

[CN2Souls]

In addition, I might add...
Dog can also pick up were a struggle might of happened with the victim and perpetrator.
Because person drop 10,000 pieces of scent per minute these are dead skin cells, hair follicles, etc. and that drop daily on a normal basis.
However, in a struggle, more than 500,000 pieces can be dropped and a dog would also pickup on this.

 

[hambirg]

Poor Misty. She doesn't have the psychological or social resources to deal with this situation. I don't know how I could do it and I don't have to to struggle with addiction and divorce. I think I would be looking, pushing LE, asking for help from people like Adam Walsh (like Misty did).

Another case I followed a few years back (that has never been solved) is Melinda and Trenton Duckett. I'm guessing that some of you followed that. Melinda did kill herself, horribly. Are there other examples of mothers who could not withstand the grief and horror (or possibly the guilt)? Are there cases that were solved?

I keep thinking about Trista Reynolds, Ayla Reynolds mom. She was/is in a similar situation, dealing with an addiction and a missing child. She seems to have pulled it together and become stronger. I almost wish Misty and Trista could have a good long chat. It would probably be good for her to talk to someone who is right where she is.

 

[foxbluff]

Thanks for this article, HeavenLeigh! Lots of info here that's new to me.
BBFox -


As of a couple years ago, I know Black Hawk County Sheriff's Department had two dogs, both cross trained for SAR and HRD.

I don't know if the dogs were on site for that particular search.

Thanks, GrainneDhu. I happened to go to the Evansdale PD site online sev. days ago. I was actually looking to see how many officers were on that force and noticed that they have a German Shepherd search dog name Sila.

 

[threecrazykids]

very helpful video from local Edale person
Evansdale bike trail - YouTube

I think the one thing that bothers me the most about this video is that it is CLEAR to me why no one saw these little girls go missing. This videographer encountered how many people during this video that could have MAYBE been witness to a crime? One or two max. I saw a couple cars drive by, but the entire time she was down closer to the lake I saw one bike rider (which by the way seemed to just be riding around and not really heading anywhere, almost appeared to evade the person with the camera if I'm being honest...maybe just cut off too quick on the editing).

And the part next to the pump house/Maiden Lane doesn't seem nearly as accessible as I thought it was by earlier pics. This persons video seems to make it appear it's not a place that could be an easy place to "hide" a vehicle without it being VERY obvious that something was way out of place. Again...ONLY if someone came along in the time they would be there.

Anyway...this is blatantly obvious that it is entirely possible no one else saw a single thing happen to these girls.

 

[palaminodee]

I think the one thing that bothers me the most about this video is that it is CLEAR to me why no one saw these little girls go missing. This videographer encountered how many people during this video that could have MAYBE been witness to a crime? One or two max. I saw a couple cars drive by, but the entire time she was down closer to the lake I saw one bike rider (which by the way seemed to just be riding around and not really heading anywhere, almost appeared to evade the person with the camera if I'm being honest...maybe just cut off too quick on the editing).

And the part next to the pump house/Maiden Lane doesn't seem nearly as accessible as I thought it was by earlier pics. This persons video seems to make it appear it's not a place that could be an easy place to "hide" a vehicle without it being VERY obvious that something was way out of place. Again...ONLY if someone came along in the time they would be there.

Anyway...this is blatantly obvious that it is entirely possible no one else saw a single thing happen to these girls.

that portion of the trail is very secluded, I agree, easy to see how no one noticed, plus if they actually took the trail vs. the actual streets it is quite remote in some spots, with fences blocking the view from homes....very mature trees and lots of shady spots.
As to where they might have had a vehicle, it was hard to tell how the grassy area butted up next to the woods....Ollie's photo showed LE parked in this area, hard to tell if it was in this video.

 

[Beyond Belief]

That video of the trail was excellent. Its a beautiful trail how horrible it has been ruined for people by a monster.

I keep wondering if there was a struggle but I would have excepted a flip flop to get left behind which we know didn't happen.
I keep thinking a knife was used to threaten one and controlled the other.

Thanks for the video.

 

[Thespyma]

I think the one thing that bothers me the most about this video is that it is CLEAR to me why no one saw these little girls go missing. This videographer encountered how many people during this video that could have MAYBE been witness to a crime? One or two max. I saw a couple cars drive by, but the entire time she was down closer to the lake I saw one bike rider (which by the way seemed to just be riding around and not really heading anywhere, almost appeared to evade the person with the camera if I'm being honest...maybe just cut off too quick on the editing).

And the part next to the pump house/Maiden Lane doesn't seem nearly as accessible as I thought it was by earlier pics. This persons video seems to make it appear it's not a place that could be an easy place to "hide" a vehicle without it being VERY obvious that something was way out of place. Again...ONLY if someone came along in the time they would be there.

Anyway...this is blatantly obvious that it is entirely possible no one else saw a single thing happen to these girls.

It is a great video for clearly seeing what lies in the area for those of us who live far away. I just wish it had been filmed at a time closer to 12-1 so the traffic and number of people who would normally be out at that time would be more evident. This was taken at a far different time judging from the shadows falling very long on the ground. Noonish would have small shadows from the sun being above. There was likely more traffic and more people closer to noon than this. IMO of course.

 

[CHERIE.T]

I know LE likes to maintain silence these days in many cases...but really, two little girls disappear in a small town, and people are just expected to go along as though nothing happened, not a word from their paid officials, in over a month? No reassurance, no call for help, nothing?

b b m
I totally agree.
That sums up exactly what I was trying to convey here yesterday.

 

[foxbluff]

Yes HRD dogs can and yes they have (starting 14 July).

Thank you again. I had suspected they were being quietly used, but hadn't known that "we" knew about it. It's always so sad to think about, but when LE doesn't know "who, what, when, and where" early in a case it makes sense to use more than one kind of search. I always have to remind myself that this type of search does not mean the LE has given up on there being a good outcome to the case. <fingers crossed for a good outcome>

 

[Beyond Belief]

That biker looked like a child. They probably turned around because they saw someone in the woods. Our photographer is lucky the police didn't show up.

 

[CHERIE.T]

What evidence is there going to be? It's not like it's a crime scene where someone was shot or stabbed right there... a perp is not going to leave much, if any trace evidence by snatching two girls off their bikes. He may not have even touched the bikes, for that matter.
As for not naming a POI, that doesn't mean they don't have one, or even several. They are usually pretty careful about not making that public until they're pretty sure they know who it is, for liability issues. Sometimes we never know until an arrest makes the news. Not naming anyone means nothing, IMO.

<modsnip>

possible evidence-
tire tracks
shoe tracks
cigarette butts
cloth fibers
drink cans
foliage bent or broken





IMO

 

[dotr]

Yeah...another new article! This one is dated today. Looks like things are starting to pick up on this brd.

If I understood your comment correctly, then I want to add that it's been my understanding over the years that cadaver dogs can tell the difference between "animal" and human remains. (I am not saying that cadaver dogs have been brought into the search for our two little girls.)

Thanks Foxbluff, you caught my "drift" exactly!

 

[JaimeInLA]

very helpful video from local Edale person
Evansdale bike trail - YouTube

This video was incredibly helpful for me!!

I just realized that what I have been missing when visualizing the area previously is the AUDIO. I was struck by how astonishingly QUIET it is there! In the Maiden Lane part, you can hear the traffic on the freeway. But in all the other scenes, you can actually hear nothing at all except birds and crickets chirping. If I walked outside right now, I would hear traffic and airplanes and car stereos and probably people talking as they walk -- there seems to be much more background noise here. But Evansdale seems almost SILENT. I now think more than ever that the girls went with someone they knew. Any struggle would have surely been heard by someone in one of the houses.

Also -- that old school completely gave me chills. I instantly got a sinking feeling when I saw it. Don't know why.

 

[CHERIE.T]

You are so correct!!! The thanks button was not enough.... suicidal people NEED to know they are cared about and loved and needed. Sometimes it can work wonders. A bouquet of flowers could do more good than a month in rehab.

b b m
I absolutely disagree.

 

[JaimeInLA]

Oh, and one more thing. I am also more convinced than ever before that Maiden Lane was NOT used. The video makes it pretty clear that any ordinary car or white van could not easily make it back there. The girls were snatched closer to home, and the bikes were put at the gate to make people think they drowned. And it worked. It bought the perp 1 full week to clean up whatever he did. IMO.