IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #18

[otto]

To my mind, there is.

I am merely sleuthing here. Following my own personal logic.

I remember when LE first asked for the driver of the white van sighted at Caseys to contact them. The language they used was very strong. I regret not copying and pasting this (the articles have since changed) but they said the driver DOES have knowledge that will help them.

Not that he may know something, or that he may be a witness, or they want to eliminate him, but that he "has information".

The strong language may indicate their belief at the time that a white van was used, or at the very least the driver of that white van was in a place at a time that he was almost guaranteed to have seen something...but it turns out, he didn't.

I also factor in the potential staging of the bikes. It follows to me that a van of some sort was used, to easily transport them. This was a quick abduction, so no stuffing two bikes in one car, tying the boot closed, bouncing along the road with two bikes hanging out, just pick up and go. A van fits.

I believe this was extremely well planned, and that is one of the reasons we have no answers as yet. The perp thought of EVERYTHING.

:banghead:

:cow:

"Agents released surveillance photos of a man and a white van they were searching for on Wednesday evening."

http://www.kcci.com/news/central-io...15935448/-/v255tnz/-/index.html#ixzz259iqheko

I don't recall investigators claiming that the man they were seeking absolutely had information about the disappearance of the children. In fact, without knowing who the man was, they could not have made a statement that he had information about the girls. As it turned out, he knew absolutely nothing about the abduction.

All we know is that police requested that the owner of a specific van speak with them ... he did, and he is not a suspect.

Police have not released any information about the type of vehicle used in the abduction.

 

[Sunlight]

Lyric's height was given as 5'11" on one of the posters. That wasn't police trying to mislead people, that was error on someone's behalf. Similarly, it wouldn't surprise me if the time on the poster should read 12:15, but instead it says 12:05. One poster claims that the girls were last seen at 12:15 and at 2. Both can't be true. In my opinion, it's simply someone being sloppy, as there is simply no advantage to stating that Lyric is 5'11" or that the girls were last seen at two conflicting times.

It seems to me that none of the errors in height or time would trip anyone up.

I guess we'll see if there is any indication that stories morph to accommodate changing timelines. As for the height and timing...I find it hard to believe that in such a high profile case involving the lives of two young girls, that the posters would not have been checked for accuracy..however, at this point, I suppose nothing surprises me anymore..MOO

 

[nikb]

<snipped for space>

I remembered being surprised reading here earlier today about MCM (CNN transcript where she's trying to tell why family doesn't know exactly what the girls were wearing) implying that Lyric "left with Gma" that day to go to the other house. Soooo, if Lyric didn't ride her bike over to Elizabeth's that day, then Gma had to load Lyric's bike in her car???

Without going to a lot of trouble, could somebody tell me how far apart the two homes are? TIA

Sorry if this is a repeat answer, I'm catching up. I believe the bikes were kept at the Collins' home in E'dale. I also know I've read and could find it again that Lyric pretty much lived with G'ma, so if G'ma was going to the Collins home every day it would make sense to leave Lyric's bike there. Maybe Waterloo's not as good of a place to ride, or she didn't have people to ride with, or they just didn't want to have to move bikes back and forth?

 

[nikb]

Sheriff Abben bless his heart :hug:

BUT is it just me or is he serious that they have NO clue what the girls were wearing,
<snipped for space>[/B]

I agree completely! But I don't think it's his 'fault' per se. He can only work with the information he gets from the people who saw them and what those people remember. I would imagine he's as frustrated as we are. Even the family seems pretty frustrated they can't remember/don't know.

 

[nikb]

I think you're right.

Yes, a phone without the SIM card can still dial 911. It would have to have the battery power to be on in order to do so, but it works. I donate my old phones to a local women's shelter every so often. As I understand it they give them to women who they worry may be in danger, mostly from domestic violence. I usually keep the SIM cards, though. I know nothing about how the whole "pinging" thing works though.

 

[nikb]

<snipped for space> Abduction whilst moving could be done by knocking one or both girls bikes down with a truck or car. This is what happened to Mickey Shunick. I guess you could also deflate the tyres of a bike
whilst one or both girls are stopped and distracted. You could maybe puncture tyres somehow.

I don't think that this has happened in this case though because law enforcement found the girls bikes and didn't report any damage.

BBM... IIRC they didn't report on the condition of the bikes much at all, though. In other words didn't report any damage, but also didn't report no damage. They were variously reported as laying across the trail, laying neatly, and leaning against the fence (or gate? can't recall which). I still think the bikes may have never been moved once they got to the lake, just people describing it differently, but I could be wrong of course.

All along we've been asking amongst ourselves if the bikes were scratched, damaged, had gravel in the tires, punctured tires, etc. but I haven't seen it reported either way.

Related to the previous question, how? I think the easiest would be to get them to stop their bikes for any number of reasons. Threatening - "Stop NOW!" by someone who looks like an authority type figure, or even easier IMO would be some sort of story that friendly, innocent children would go with. Someone somewhat familiar pulls over to say hi, they're distracted talking to the person, then they're gone, either with that person or someone who grabbed them while they were distracted. Someone's on the ground "hurt" and needs help, they stop to help. All kinds of possibilities.

Personal antecdote, I'm reminded of a time a couple of years ago and I should know better! I was Christmas shopping and walking to my car when I heard a woman sobbing. She was wandering around near her car and on and off her cell phone with obviously upsetting calls. She was aimlessly saying "please someone help me" but she was in a weird part of the parking lot, pretty dark, no one else was probably even within earshot. I got somewhat near her and asked her if she needed help or wanted me to call someone. She immediately went into this long story about how she and her son got into a fight, he was on drugs, he threw her dog ("my baby") into traffic and she didn't know if her dog was hurt or killed. I think her son was just being a <expletive> and told her that on the phone trying to get money from her for "vet bills" (ahem, drugs), but anyway... I felt so bad for her. The more she talked the closer I got until we were a few feet from each other behind her car. I asked if she wanted to move somewhere better lit with more people around since she seemed afraid of her son, but she said "no, I don't want people to see me like this." In between incoherent sobbing she kept thanking me for being there and listening to her.

I talked to her quite awhile in that dark, isolated part of the parking lot. I could've easily been grabbed by someone if they wanted to. I even offered to drive around with her to try to find her dog - me driving, her in my car, but what would it take? 10 seconds for her to go from sobbing to evil and well, yikes. Once she calmed down some I gave her a hug before I left. How easy would it've been for her to grab me and throw me in her car? I either wasn't "their type" or she was sincere - I prefer to believe sincere - but if I heard the same story as a kid and I didn't have a car? I don't like to think it, but I might've gone with her to help her.

 

[nikb]

Elizabeth was home schooled until last year. She attended school last year in Evansdale. Lyric attended school in Waterloo. Lyric would probably be unknown to other Evansdale kids, but home schooled or not, other kids would probably know Elizabeth. Regardless, I have not heard of any sightings reported by other kids.

I haven't either, but I tend to think anything LE might've heard from other kids is being guarded very closely. Look at how much scrutiny some of the adults have been under. Protecting any kids who came forward is really important IMO.

 

[Truman]

To my mind, there is.

I am merely sleuthing here. Following my own personal logic.

I remember when LE first asked for the driver of the white van sighted at Caseys to contact them. The language they used was very strong. I regret not copying and pasting this (the articles have since changed) but they said the driver DOES have knowledge that will help them.

Not that he may know something, or that he may be a witness, or they want to eliminate him, but that he "has information".

The strong language may indicate their belief at the time that a white van was used, or at the very least the driver of that white van was in a place at a time that he was almost guaranteed to have seen something...but it turns out, he didn't.

I also factor in the potential staging of the bikes. It follows to me that a van of some sort was used, to easily transport them. This was a quick abduction, so no stuffing two bikes in one car, tying the boot closed, bouncing along the road with two bikes hanging out, just pick up and go. A van fits.

I believe this was extremely well planned, and that is one of the reasons we have no answers as yet. The perp thought of EVERYTHING.

:banghead:

:cow:

I don't not have enough time to go back and link right now, but as I remember it (correct me if I'm wrong) the white van at Casey's only seemed to come into play because there seemed to be a rash of "attempted abductions" in nearby towns involving white vans. The way I interpreted it was that LE had no idea which direction to go in, heard the reports about white vans, so went back and reviewed security footage for white vans that had been in the area, but then figured out the guy wasn't involved.

I will add links later, but if anybody remembers differently, please feel free to correct me!

 

[nikb]

Credit to WS user Reannan - I saw this on the thread about Gabbiee Swainson (currently on the "missing" forum). If you haven't seen these interviews wow, it's pretty powerful and amazing.

Elizabeth Shoaf story:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23522127/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/#.UD1yddZlRvA

If you scroll down you'll get to the first of the intereviews. They're broken up into sections. "Morning of the Abduction" describes just how easily a child can be taken. And this little girl was 14, probably even more 'aware' and skeptical than Lyric and Lizzie would be.

It's awful but on the other hand, she's alive and seemingly well, so there's always hope.

 

[foxbluff]

I think restraining the girls would not really be a problem. Luring them would not be a problem. I, too, have a problem with why on earth wouldn't the perp(s) just keep on driving and get out of the area rather than risking being seen...or leaving car tire evidence for example. Doesn't add up. Delaying the "search" because of the presumption of drowning...hasn't really changed the outcome...they have disappeared. If LE is not following up on something they have...then, the case is in deep, deep trouble. MOO

Don't hit me anybody but...hey...for all I know the perps were bike riding when they met up w/the girls on their bikes...invite the girls to ride to where they're staying. Things get way out of hand...perps can't risk the possibility that the bikes will be found anywhere near where they're living and/or temporarily staying. They own an automobile (I'm not thinking boat at this point) which is used to dump the bikes. <fox ducking>

 

[Sunlight]

Don't hit me anybody but...hey...for all I know the perps were bike riding when they met up w/the girls on their bikes...invite the girls to ride to where they're staying. Things get way out of hand...perps can't risk the possibility that the bikes will be found anywhere near where they're living and/or temporarily staying. They own an automobile (I'm not thinking boat at this point) which is used to dump the bikes. <fox ducking>

Sounds possible. One of my theories actually.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I don't not have enough time to go back and link right now, but as I remember it (correct me if I'm wrong) the white van at Casey's only seemed to come into play because there seemed to be a rash of "attempted abductions" in nearby towns involving white vans. The way I interpreted it was that LE had no idea which direction to go in, heard the reports about white vans, so went back and reviewed security footage for white vans that had been in the area, but then figured out the guy wasn't involved.

I will add links later, but if anybody remembers differently, please feel free to correct me!

I believe the white van was being kicked around on fb before the request for white van man to come forward...the reported "abduction attempts" were all discussed at the time too.

All the links with the unusual wording from LE have now been updated, but I have managed to find one direct quote, thanks to our brilliant websleuthers.

From the article linked above ^

"An FBI spokesperson says the person is not a witness, but "someone who may have information about the abduction."


The phraseology has now vanished but there was a discussion on the language used back on thread 11.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180618&page=2

There can only be two possible explanations for the questioning of the white van guy - they were either suspect of him, or of his van. They specifically say he was NOT a witness...which leaves only a suspect IMO.

A suspect driving a white van. Now we know he is no longer a suspect, but white vans are still indicated.

Again, my opinion only.

:cow:

 

[SapphireSteel]

BBM... IIRC they didn't report on the condition of the bikes much at all, though. In other words didn't report any damage, but also didn't report no damage. They were variously reported as laying across the trail, laying neatly, and leaning against the fence (or gate? can't recall which). I still think the bikes may have never been moved once they got to the lake, just people describing it differently, but I could be wrong of course.

All along we've been asking amongst ourselves if the bikes were scratched, damaged, had gravel in the tires, punctured tires, etc. but I haven't seen it reported either way.

Related to the previous question, how? I think the easiest would be to get them to stop their bikes for any number of reasons. Threatening - "Stop NOW!" by someone who looks like an authority type figure, or even easier IMO would be some sort of story that friendly, innocent children would go with. Someone somewhat familiar pulls over to say hi, they're distracted talking to the person, then they're gone, either with that person or someone who grabbed them while they were distracted. Someone's on the ground "hurt" and needs help, they stop to help. All kinds of possibilities.

Personal antecdote, I'm reminded of a time a couple of years ago and I should know better! I was Christmas shopping and walking to my car when I heard a woman sobbing. She was wandering around near her car and on and off her cell phone with obviously upsetting calls. She was aimlessly saying "please someone help me" but she was in a weird part of the parking lot, pretty dark, no one else was probably even within earshot. I got somewhat near her and asked her if she needed help or wanted me to call someone. She immediately went into this long story about how she and her son got into a fight, he was on drugs, he threw her dog ("my baby") into traffic and she didn't know if her dog was hurt or killed. I think her son was just being a <expletive> and told her that on the phone trying to get money from her for "vet bills" (ahem, drugs), but anyway... I felt so bad for her. The more she talked the closer I got until we were a few feet from each other behind her car. I asked if she wanted to move somewhere better lit with more people around since she seemed afraid of her son, but she said "no, I don't want people to see me like this." In between incoherent sobbing she kept thanking me for being there and listening to her.

I talked to her quite awhile in that dark, isolated part of the parking lot. I could've easily been grabbed by someone if they wanted to. I even offered to drive around with her to try to find her dog - me driving, her in my car, but what would it take? 10 seconds for her to go from sobbing to evil and well, yikes. Once she calmed down some I gave her a hug before I left. How easy would it've been for her to grab me and throw me in her car? I either wasn't "their type" or she was sincere - I prefer to believe sincere - but if I heard the same story as a kid and I didn't have a car? I don't like to think it, but I might've gone with her to help her.

I hope you realise you were her angel that day. The milk of human kindness. Well done!

:tyou:

:takeabow:

 

[Jax49]

OT

Two more attempts to abduct children reported.

http://www.kfvs12.com/story/19430677/poplar-bluff-police-investigate-attempted-child-abduction

Police are saying shortly after noon on Friday, a white van with a male Hispanic driver pulled up to three girls on Thomas Street.
Police say the driver motioned for the girls to get into the van.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48865184

Police say a mother was walking with her two-year-old daughter in the 8400 block of Franklin Avenue around 9:00 when the incident happened. The mother told police she and her daughter were walking along a row of garages and her daughter was a few feet in front of her when a man reached out and grabbed the child.

 

[otto]

I believe the white van was being kicked around on fb before the request for white van man to come forward...the reported "abduction attempts" were all discussed at the time too.

All the links with the unusual wording from LE have now been updated, but I have managed to find one direct quote, thanks to our brilliant websleuthers.

From the article linked above ^

"An FBI spokesperson says the person is not a witness, but "someone who may have information about the abduction."


The phraseology has now vanished but there was a discussion on the language used back on thread 11.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180618&page=2

There can only be two possible explanations for the questioning of the white van guy - they were either suspect of him, or of his van. They specifically say he was NOT a witness...which leaves only a suspect IMO.

A suspect driving a white van. Now we know he is no longer a suspect, but white vans are still indicated.

Again, my opinion only.

:cow:

Maybe the van was seen behind the auction shop and again at Caseys around 2 pm. Maybe investigators were hoping that the driver noticed something unusual ... he was not sought as a witness, but perhaps as someone that could provide a tip. The cyclist was not a witness and not a suspect, but he had a tip.

"Authorities have released a surveillance photo of someone they believe may have information about the abduction of two Evansdale girls.

The FBI released two photos that show a white Astro van and a person believed to be the driver at the Casey's gas station in Evansdale on July 13. That's the day that 9-year-old Elizabeth Collins and 10-year-old Lyric Cook went missing in Evansdale.

An FBI spokesperson says the person is not a witness, but "someone who may have information about the abduction."

http://www.wxow.com/story/19174087/...hite-astro-van-in-missing-girls-investigation


From the same article:

"There has been speculation on social media sites about the involvement of a white van in the abduction of Lyric and Elizabeth, but as of last week, law enforcement involved in the investigation said there's no evidence to support those rumors."

 

[Jax49]

I don't remember seeing this photo of Lyric before. Sorry if everyone has already seen it.

http://altoonaherald.desmoinesregis...7220057/FBI-believes-missing-Iowa-girls-alive

 

[otto]

Heads up ... You might want to delete that, as any link that is filled with *************** is not valid and not allowed.

 

[Sunlight]

I don't remember seeing this photo of Lyric before. Sorry if everyone has already seen it.

http://altoonaherald.desmoinesregis...7220057/FBI-believes-missing-Iowa-girls-alive

Another time reference...

"Lyric Cook-Morrissey and her younger cousin Elizabeth Collins left Elizabeth’s Evansdale home for a bike ride at about 12:15 p.m. on July 13 and haven’t been seen since. "

 

[nikb]

I don't remember seeing this photo of Lyric before. Sorry if everyone has already seen it.

http://altoonaherald.desmoinesregis...7220057/FBI-believes-missing-Iowa-girls-alive

I hadn't seen it, and the article to go along with it is good and something I hadn't seen either. Thanks for posting it!

 

[GrainneDhu]

The fact is that the children could have been abducted near the Collin's home and the bikes staged at the lake, or they could have ridden their bikes to the lake where they were abducted. There is absolutely no reason to assume that a van of any color was used, or needed, during the abduction.

I am only going by my personal impressions, I'm not about to go digging up the stats to figure it out.

It seems to me that vans and SUVs are about 50/50 with passenger cars for vehicles these days. If I'm right, then there's a 50% chance that some type of larger than passenger car vehicle was used.

Plus, again in my uninformed opinion, older vans and SUVs don't hold value the way passenger cars do. With the economy right now, people who are better off want a vehicle that gets better mph. Older vans and SUVs suck gasoline like there is no tomorrow, so are usually cheaper to buy.

If I were looking to abduct a young girl or two, I'd buy a beater van and stop driving it after the crime for a period of time. If it were a beater, I could just tell anyone who asked that it wasn't running right and I was driving my (better) vehicle until I could get the beater fixed.

Then again, I'm writing as a sneaky person who has a normal fear of consequences (and total lack of interest in committing a crime). The perp in this case may well not feel any need to conceal the vehicle they used.