IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #19

[nikb]

Sorry nikb. I was just stating my opinion which is what I think elmom was referring too. -:blushing::moo:

No apologies needed at all. Actually I'm sorry, I just re-read my post and I can see how it could've come across as a little blunt, but I didn't mean to be at all.

:grouphug:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Mentioning that along with a description of physical features of the girls that could be important-- definitely made me sit up.
I know and respect that some here think the 6 points were only generic statements.

I'm considering the 6 points more literally.

The girls were abducted.
Abducted by someone known to Edale.
The girls may have changed their physical appearance.

IDk those sound pretty darn specific to me.
imho

And me.

You can take it two ways, I guess.

Either LE are a bunch of bumbling fools who have absolutely zero clue what happened to the girls or

LE are keeping a lot of stuff quiet but releasing carefully selected information designed to prod witnesses...or people who may not know they are witnesses.

The latter would imply LE has a workable theory which they are building into a case.

I know there has been a lot of rubbishing LE and their tactics, but I for one subscribe to theory 2.

 

[CHERIE.T]

No apologies needed at all. Actually I'm sorry, I just re-read my post and I can see how it could've come across as a little blunt, but I didn't mean to be at all.

:grouphug:

No prob we're good. I felt like I caused confusion....wouldnt be the first time. lol

 

[GrainneDhu]

Grainne, I wonder if the witnesses got their days mixed up. :waitasec:

The Innocence Project has found that over 75% of their exonerations involved mistaken eyewitness testimony.

I don't think that means that eyewitness testimony is useless but I do think it means that eyewitness testimony should be backed up by some sort of forensic evidence. There are just too many ways for an honest eyewitness to make a mistake.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Does anyone know if there is a lot of harvesting of corn and beans in Evansdale area?

I don't know about Black Hawk County in particular but statewide, 10% of the corn harvest is in. Normally, the corn harvest would not even have started so early but farmers are worried that the corn stalks are brittle from the drought, which would lower yields even further.

Further bad corn harvest news: they've already found aflatoxin from some fields. There had been some hope that with the drought aflatoxin would not be a problem this year.

Soybeans will probably start within the next 2 weeks.

Off topic: please say a prayer for farmers or send good intentions or whatever you feel has some power for comfort. For we Iowans surely need it this year.

 

[nikb]

The Innocence Project has found that over 75% of their exonerations involved mistaken eyewitness testimony.

I don't think that means that eyewitness testimony is useless but I do think it means that eyewitness testimony should be backed up by some sort of forensic evidence. There are just too many ways for an honest eyewitness to make a mistake.

BBM... wow, that is frightening.

 

[Marilynilpa]

The Innocence Project has found that over 75% of their exonerations involved mistaken eyewitness testimony.

I don't think that means that eyewitness testimony is useless but I do think it means that eyewitness testimony should be backed up by some sort of forensic evidence. There are just too many ways for an honest eyewitness to make a mistake.

One of the first things I learned in a college journalism course was just how unobservant we are, even when we think we are paying attention. This lesson involved having someone run into the classroom, grab the instructor's briefcase, and run out of the room. Versions of this exercise abound. In my class, no student correctly described the intruder. There were various descriptions of his clothes, height, physical appearance, facial hair, etc. How so many people could honestly describe the same person in such varied way has always amazed me.

With today's heightened security, this type of exercise is probably not done anymore.

 

[Jax49]

Thanks for the link. Hm. Is this the same poster that originally had Lyric at 5'11"? I think it is, it looks familiar. It's weird to me that such specific details (girls' height, time last seen) are/have been so far off.

Actually, its a different poster. Here's the one that used to say 5' 11".

http://www.iowaonline.state.ia.us/mpic/Controller.aspx?cmd=personDetailCommand&id=29696

 

[artzypantz]

I dont know if this article has been posted before, i just came across it, and it was a little different than the other articles speaking out about the same time that the 6 points article came out..........

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...official-says?odyssey=obinsite&nclick_check=1

In the eight weeks since the girls disappeared, investigators say they’ve found few clues that may lead to Lyric’s and Elizabeth’s whereabouts.

“It is almost certain that the person or persons involved in this abduction used a vehicle to arrive and depart from the area, and it is believed that surveillance video is likely to have recorded that vehicle,” Charis Paulson, assistant director of the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation wrote in an email to law enforcement officials and state employees.

“Regardless of whether the person(s) responsible for taking Elizabeth and Lyric reside, work, or have acquaintances in the area, or possibly came to the area to commit a crime, it is virtually impossible for any person to live, travel, or exist in a vacuum,” Paulson wrote. “Someone knows something that might be valuable to law enforcement.”

Officials continue to follow up on a large number of leads, including watching hours of surveillance footage collected from businesses, homes and elsewhere in Evansdale, according to Paulson’s email.

 

[nikb]

Actually, its a different poster. Here's the one that used to say 5' 11".

http://www.iowaonline.state.ia.us/mpic/Controller.aspx?cmd=personDetailCommand&id=29696

Ah this is it. Thank you!

Just jumping off from your post, I know it's been asked 100 times by now but how on earth are the "last seen" times so varied? Is it 11:30, 12:00, 12:05, 12:15, 12:20, 2:00, 2:30...??? The last one noted by LE seems to be the surveillance camera at 12:15-ish, but there have been so many times thrown out there. So confusing.

 

[artzypantz]

Sorry this is kindof off topic.......Another iowa white van incident......

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/vi...e-van-sought-by-police-in-northwest-Iowa?News

SPENCER, IA. — Spencer police are searching for the driver of a white van who tried to make contact with some students at a playground in Spencer.

Police say a man in his 60s stopped at an elementary school Tuesday afternoon and motioned for the students to come over. Some teacher aides came outside and the man left.

I hope to God there were Teacher Aides or other school adults that were already outside with them! They arent supposed to be alone outside or inside!
MOO

 

[Marilynilpa]

Sorry this is kindof off topic.......Another iowa white van incident......

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/vi...e-van-sought-by-police-in-northwest-Iowa?News

SPENCER, IA. — Spencer police are searching for the driver of a white van who tried to make contact with some students at a playground in Spencer.

Police say a man in his 60s stopped at an elementary school Tuesday afternoon and motioned for the students to come over. Some teacher aides came outside and the man left.

Yikes! Let's hope this turns out to be a misunderstanding of some sort!

 

[artzypantz]

I dont post much because my computer is old and freezes up when i log in, or even coming to the WS site causes it to slow down a whole lot.

Just wanted to say i lurk here daily and appreciate all of you here, who are trying to help work this case out & bring these children home to their families!

ArtzyPantz

 

[Jax49]

Sorry this is kindof off topic.......Another iowa white van incident......

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/vi...e-van-sought-by-police-in-northwest-Iowa?News

SPENCER, IA. — Spencer police are searching for the driver of a white van who tried to make contact with some students at a playground in Spencer.

Police say a man in his 60s stopped at an elementary school Tuesday afternoon and motioned for the students to come over. Some teacher aides came outside and the man left.

I hope to God there were Teacher Aides or other school adults that were already outside with them! They arent supposed to be alone outside or inside!
MOO

Again? Wish they would have gotten a tag number.

 

[CHERIE.T]

Sorry this is kindof off topic.......Another iowa white van incident......

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/vi...e-van-sought-by-police-in-northwest-Iowa?News

SPENCER, IA. — Spencer police are searching for the driver of a white van who tried to make contact with some students at a playground in Spencer.

Police say a man in his 60s stopped at an elementary school Tuesday afternoon and motioned for the students to come over. Some teacher aides came outside and the man left.

I hope to God there were Teacher Aides or other school adults that were already outside with them! They arent supposed to be alone outside or inside!
MOO

:what:That's frightening!

 

[GrainneDhu]

BBM... wow, that is frightening.

It is scary.

I can't say I've never committed a crime (I grew up in the late 60s/early 70s!) but I can say I've never done anything to hurt another human being. Even so, I value my constitutional rights because innocent people have been convicted before and many of them on the basis of eyewitness testimony.

I believe it was Katydid on one of the previous threads who witnessed a fatal accident. She saw it in motion before the actual impact, so she was careful to take note of all the details. She made a statement that day to LE for the investigation. Even so, at trial, camera footage revealed that she had gotten some of the details wrong.

When people say "it could never happen to me because I don't have anything to hide" all I can think of "then you'd better hope no one around you ever makes an honest mistake."

And that is why I think that any of the people who have come forward may have made a mistake of some sort. I don't think any of them are deliberately trying to conceal the truth but it is just so easy for someone to make an honest mistake.

 

[GrainneDhu]

One of the first things I learned in a college journalism course was just how unobservant we are, even when we think we are paying attention. This lesson involved having someone run into the classroom, grab the instructor's briefcase, and run out of the room. Versions of this exercise abound. In my class, no student correctly described the intruder. There were various descriptions of his clothes, height, physical appearance, facial hair, etc. How so many people could honestly describe the same person in such varied way has always amazed me.

With today's heightened security, this type of exercise is probably not done anymore.

Marilyn, what a great exercise!

I hope they are still doing it. I think it would be possible with some tweaks so that the students would know it wasn't an emergency situation; people are no more observant during emergencies than they are outside of emergencies. It's just that an emergency is such a shock that it feels more vivid to the observer.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Sorry this is kindof off topic.......Another iowa white van incident......

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/vi...e-van-sought-by-police-in-northwest-Iowa?News

SPENCER, IA. — Spencer police are searching for the driver of a white van who tried to make contact with some students at a playground in Spencer.

Police say a man in his 60s stopped at an elementary school Tuesday afternoon and motioned for the students to come over. Some teacher aides came outside and the man left.

I hope to God there were Teacher Aides or other school adults that were already outside with them! They arent supposed to be alone outside or inside!
MOO

It could be that the playground monitors have been trained to stay with the children, no matter what.

My mom was a volunteer at an elementary school for over 35 years and she said that was what they taught at that school. That no matter what a monitor or chaperone saw, their primary responsibility was to stay with the children, no matter what. If there was an emergency that the monitor could not handle on their own, they were supposed to send two older children into the school together to get help.

There was a situation where there was a car fire down the hill from the school and one of the two monitors got in trouble because she left the playground to call 911 herself. She meant well but she was abandoning her primary responsibility.

 

[hambirg]

But one said east and one said the girls were going west.:banghead:
which was it? scratching head

This is how I read that. . .

TB is in the parking lot asking if anybody saw the girls and describing the bikes. The runner comes forward (or is approached by TB) and he says, "Yes, I saw them(meaning he saw the bikes) going that way (East)." Remember at that point, it was just someone asking about the girls, and I don't think anybody had the forethought that this was going to turn into an abduction case. I think when this runner talked to LE the details were clarified. . .he had seen the bikes and assumed the girls were there somewhere by the bikes.

MOO

 

[TeenyTaurus]

This is how I read that. . .

TB is in the parking lot asking if anybody saw the girls and describing the bikes. The runner comes forward (or is approached by TB) and he says, "Yes, I saw them(meaning he saw the bikes) going that way (East)." Remember at that point, it was just someone asking about the girls, and I don't think anybody had the forethought that this was going to turn into an abduction case. I think when this runner talked to LE the details were clarified. . .he had seen the bikes and assumed the girls were there somewhere by the bikes.

MOO

I agree. Considering LE has never acknowledged any witness seeing the girls after 12:15, I tend to read this person as the same one Breault referred to in "“There was a gentleman who regularly runs around the lake. He didn’t see either one of the girls ... but he did see their bikes and he was able to pinpoint the time of the day that he saw the bikes. Small details like this are really important to the investigation,” she said."
The "east" part was probably simply in an easterly direction from the westerly access from the park, imho.
In the CNN transcript from July 16th, there is a part where Daniel Morrissey stated he was told the bikes were FACING west when they were found.