IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #22

[jstwondering]

No offense but I didn't conduct my research on home invasions. I'm aware of what type of case this is. And as I stated it was based on information I've read stastically presented by Criminal profilers, who work with LE on abduction cases.

Examples... the Greone case (two children, one perp); A case in GA back in February where two children were abducted by a single perp; two teen girls were abducted and sexually assaulted in Los Angeles several years ago by Roy Ratliff before cops shot him, to name a few. I'm sure there are cases of more than one perp abducting multiple children but my research was done in response to several posters who were wondering if it was possible for one perp to have abducted both girls.

Cary Staynor abducted (and killed after holding them for a while) an adult woman and her daughter (15) and friend (16) with little problem. He used manipulation (threats to the others) to make all the victims do what he wanted.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/stayner/index_1.html

 

[iamnotagolem]

I came to the realization this morning that after 5 heart wrenching months of wondering and worrying, that these parents will now have to plan a funeral for these beautiful little girls. I'm not sure why it took me 2 days to realize that, but it was painful to think about. My heart goes out to the families.

 

[cindersoot]

Do we know for sure the girls had on the same clothes as they wore the day they went missing?
Also if they were killed right away in the same clothes and
NOT out in the elements does that mean that they were kept in a refrigerated area?? then dumped later???

We don't know any of this yet.

 

[LucyOso]

I hadn't thought about the accident angle, but I would think if they were injured on the bike, bike damage would have been mentioned. Good thought, though! I'm going to ponder that a bit more...

We know little about the condition of the bikes. But, kids also often ditch their bikes and go exploring on foot. If one tried to cross the road on foot and got hit by a car or got hit by someone on a bike while walking it could lead to an eventually fatal injury. People do panic and make a series of poorer and poorer choices. If it was something that spiraled out of control, hopefully, by LE keeping closed-lipped the person will eventually come forward out of guilt, etc. If it is a witch-hunt, the person may bury the secret. :twocents: Just trying to think of all angles...Because the bodies were found together and really not that far apart considering how vast the open areas of land are and kind of close to the crime scene (considering how big the USA is) it seems like someone familiar with the area.

 

[lishac23]

In hoping that I'm not the only one (as this is my CHEERS), I'm finding myself very disturbed and "hurt" at the possibility that these girls were kept alive for some time and murdered recently. I've followed this case from the beginning and I've always hoped and prayed that they were still alive and now knowing the outcome....I hope and pray they weren't. Sounds confusing and weird, but having a hard time with this one.

 

[LisaB]

MSM article from about a week after the girls went missing. Interesting, since this is inconsistent with child abduction statistics;

Bumped from : 07/21/2012 6:23 pm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...missing-iowa-girls-still-alive_n_1691989.html

Authorities searching for two missing Iowa cousins have information that leads them to believe both girls are still alive, an FBI spokeswoman said Saturday.

FBI spokeswoman Sandy Breault said authorities "feel strongly" that 10-year-old Lyric Cook-Morrissey and 8-year-old Elizabeth Collins have not been killed. She refused to say what led authorities to that conclusion, but urged anyone with information about their disappearance to contact law enforcement.

"We believe these girls are alive, and we are not discouraged by the passage of time since their disappearance," Breault said.

IIRC, they subsequently clarified that statement saying that since they had no concrete evidence that the girls were NOT alive, they had reason to think they WERE alive.

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

Lucyoso, I totally get what you are saying. And I can see that happening quite easily. That is a great new angle! And one I hadn't considered before. An accident involving maybe a prominent community member who didn't want their rep tarnished. Or a young person who just panicked...

 

[GrainneDhu]

Celebration of life for Elizabeth

http://www.facebook.com/#!/events/523849624306926/


Sadly some things are playing out that are dividing the family.

I feel like I may be asking a stupid question but I don't understand what you mean. What is dividing the family?

 

[LisaB]

I agree. I don't believe that LE would say "bodies" instead of "remains" to be sensitive to the family. In the Jessica Ridgeway case, the entire country knew that she was "not intact" and I don't remember anyone criticizing LE for being disrespectful for letting that information be released.

If the girls were kept alive until recently, what caused them to be killed?

If more than one person was holding them, and the "alpha" was arrested, the other perp may have feared he'd be unable to sustain the charade alone, and did away with them. As I recall, Philip Garrido was imprisoned for a short time and his wife cared for Jaycee in his absence. There was another case that I can't put a name to where the wife cared for the hostage during her husband's absence. But if the second person was apprehensive from the start about the abduction, they might have WANTED to release the girls, but realized they would be caught if they did. Maybe if it was a male/female pair, the woman felt jealous/threatened by the man's interest in the girls and took advantage of his absence to get rid of them.

 

[tlcya]

Exactly. They can make a tentative ID based on certain things at the scene. Clothes, orthodontics, cavities, bone fractures/injuries in medical charts, earrings, etc. I am sure they are not "bodies" in a sense of recently deceased. But, if the parents have no need to see them, then they are most likely pretty decomposed.

Has anyone wondered if this could have been an accident that got out of control. Maybe one girl was hit by a car in the road or by a bike on the bike path and seriously injured and someone panicked and killed both, dumping them where they knew they would eventually be found out of guilt. If one was injured, the other would obviously get in a vehicle to go to the "hospital". I guess we will have to see what comes out in the autopsy reports. However, I am sure that will not be shared if there is a clue to cause of death, etc that only the perp would know. :-(

Now that is some outside the box thinking. This is one of many reasons I love this site. I had never considered that angle. Food for thought.

 

[not_my_kids]

Lucyoso, I totally get what you are saying. And I can see that happening quite easily. That is a great new angle! And one I hadn't considered before. An accident involving maybe a prominent community member who didn't want their rep tarnished. Or a young person who just panicked...

It's also an angle that is brought up in almost every case of this type, and it is never (to my recollection) the way that the case went down. It's easier to consider because it leaves open the possibility that no one meant to kill these two beautiful little girls, but it's not very likely. JMO.

 

[tlcya]

I feel like I may be asking a stupid question but I don't understand what you mean. What is dividing the family?

Cant even get the page to load properly. It just takes me to my own FB page so I couldn't figure out the family divide reference either.

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

I couldn't figure the family divide reference either. Unless it was because it was in celebration of Elizabeth's life and not Lyric's? I have no clue.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Not to be disgusting, but mummification only last for so long before certain bugs reduce the body to bone. Usually occurs at about 50 days...give or take. I've seen a mummified corpse and you wouldn't be able to tell what the person looked like.

Ollipop, a verified local with family connections to the families, said that he had been told that their clothes were found with the bodies. I think the combination of location, physical size of the bodies that were found and the clothes made it close to 100% that these are Elizabeth and Lyric.

Whatever testing they are doing (dental records or DNA) is just closing that infinitesimally small gap to 100%. Which has been typical of this investigation from the very beginning. On Monday 16 July, Abben said that LE was close to 100% certain that the girls were not in Meyer's Lake but that the lake would be drained anyway just to be absolutely sure.

That's just the way this department rolls. They're careful and they go the extra mile to make sure there are no doubts remaining wherever they can.

This department seems to me to be doing a great investigation. If this is a solve-able crime, I am certain they will do it.

 

[LucyOso]

It's also an angle that is brought up in almost every case of this type, and it is never (to my recollection) the way that the case went down. It's easier to consider because it leaves open the possibility that no one meant to kill these two beautiful little girls, but it's not very likely. JMO.

I agree with you on that. I also thinking not focusing on the "usual suspects" like druggies, RSO's, etc helps. It could be anyone...but...what stands out to me is the person most likely knew the lake would be drained taking time, staged the bikes, placed the bodies in a close area, etc. It seems pretty organized to me in some ways. Thought and effort was put into the crime. I guess, I try to give the benefit of the doubt, because sometimes, that can lead to a greater perspective of the situation.

 

[GrainneDhu]

MSM article from about a week after the girls went missing. Interesting, since this is inconsistent with child abduction statistics;

Bumped from : 07/21/2012 6:23 pm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...missing-iowa-girls-still-alive_n_1691989.html

Authorities searching for two missing Iowa cousins have information that leads them to believe both girls are still alive, an FBI spokeswoman said Saturday.

FBI spokeswoman Sandy Breault said authorities "feel strongly" that 10-year-old Lyric Cook-Morrissey and 8-year-old Elizabeth Collins have not been killed. She refused to say what led authorities to that conclusion, but urged anyone with information about their disappearance to contact law enforcement.

"We believe these girls are alive, and we are not discouraged by the passage of time since their disappearance," Breault said.

I thought at the time and I still think it was just the old LE reasoning of "we don't have any evidence the missing person is dead, so we'll say we think they are still alive."

Been there, read that in too many cases to easily believe such statements without any offering of actual evidence to back them up.

 

[Joe Friday]

This statmen mystified me then and still does today.

I wonder if we will ever know what lead them to believe that. I guess if it turns out the TOD of the girl does not add up to the time since abduction then they will have been right.

If the girls were killed right after their abduction we may never now what made the FBI suspect otherwise.

If LE received a ransom note after the girls went missing that might give them the false impression that the girls were still alive. It might also explain why LE was so quick to label the case as a kidnapping.

The same thing was said about Samantha Koenig when text messages were received from her phone after her disappearance. We know know that she had been killed only hours after her abduction.

JMO

 

[GrainneDhu]

Thanks for the computer tip ... regarding the location of the girls bodies, I read the transcripts last night after reading here that JVM covered the story.

"The second key point is the theory right now is that this was the dump site. That they are looking for the primary murder scene. In other words, where the bodies were found is not where these two little girls were killed."

"A couple of things that we know. I`m told by police sources that they were able to make an eyeball identification, meaning looking at the bodies and knowing in their heads that it was these two girls, very, very quickly. I`m told is that it didn`t appear that the bodies had been out exposed to the elements for the four or five months since they went missing. That`s No. 1.

I`m also told that there was some articles of clothing belonging to these two girls found at that scene, as well. "

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1212/06/ijvm.01.html

Given the source of the info, I'm not expecting it to be borne out by LE.

I think that yes, the girls were visually identified at the scene but I believe it was a combination of the size of the bodies, the location and the clothing found that enabled the identification. That's consistent with what Ollipop, a verified local who is related by marriage to the families, posted.

I'm saying I'll believe Ollipop over some reporter who flew in for their TV show.

 

[not_my_kids]

I agree with you on that. I also thinking not focusing on the "usual suspects" like druggies, RSO's, etc helps. It could be anyone...but...what stands out to me is the person most likely knew the lake would be drained taking time, staged the bikes, placed the bodies in a close area, etc. It seems pretty organized to me in some ways. Thought and effort was put into the crime. I guess, I try to give the benefit of the doubt, because sometimes, that can lead to a greater perspective of the situation.

I'm with you on that. There are a lot of people focusing on the potential meth angle, but I'm not feeling that one, because I don't see a methhead or even a meth cook being this organized.

 

[Confusion]

I don't mean to be insensitive because I know just thinking about the deaths of the girls is extremely hard on a lot of people, so I apologize if I come across that way. It sounds like there was some decomposition, or they would most likely have just had the parents identify them. At the same time, it doesn't sound like they were entirely decomposed or they'd more likely have said remains rather than bodies.

It was considered (I believe by a reporter) that the bodies may have been frozen until recently, and brought there recently for some reason. I wonder if they had been kept in a large freezer normally used for venison, etc. They may not have been removed to make room for meat from hunting, but hunting season may have been a time to be in an out of the way place without looking suspicious. Perhaps the person who did it was out there early in the season, or even before the season with an ATV to "set up a blind" using materials which also covered the bodies on it in case he was seen. He could have brought the bodies out there, left, and actually hunted somewhere else. Or maybe not.