IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #24

[otto]

But Mr. C said Lizzie stopped and talked to people along the way, IIRC. So that makes it more likely, IMO, that he would have recognized her.

ETA: Here's a quote from Mrs. C:

“I broke down for the first time because I was so used to, especially Elizabeth, seeing her every night ride her bicycle and she always stopped and talked to people. She was a friendly little girl,” Marcella Carpenter said. “You know, it’s hard when you’ve got a grandchild the same age.”

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...-missing-Iowa-girls-after-their-disappearance

His wife talked about a young girl that rode her bike along Lake Avenue every night and who stopped and talked with people on the street. When they heard that Lyric and Elizabeth were missing, they assumed that the missing children were the same girls that they had seen riding bikes on Lake Avenue every night. We haven't heard anything from the family that confirms that Elizabeth rode her bike on Lake Avenue (more than a mile from home) and that she visited with strangers on that street every evening.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Did LE show them a picture of Elizabeth and they name her? Or did police show them a picture and ask then if they had seen Elizabeth? It's easy to say her name when it has been told to you and it's on the news. It'd be pretty easy to convince yourself that is who you had seen and talked to before and that is who you saw that day.

That's something I've wondered about. LE was asking about the girls, but I don't know whether they were actually showing pictures of the girls to anyone at that time.

 

[Marilynilpa]

His wife talked about a young girl that rode her bike along Lake Avenue every night and who stopped and talked with people on the street. When they heard that Lyric and Elizabeth were missing, they assumed that the missing children were the same girls that they saw riding bikes on Lake Avenue every night. We haven't heard anything from the family that confirms that Elizabeth rode her bike on Lake Avenue (more than a mile from home) and that she visited with strangers on that street every evening.

Very true, we have no confirmation of anything.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I just want to say that everyone posting new thoughts and ideas is great, even though we don't have any new information, going over the old and looking at various scenarios is great.

I'm enjoying the new ideas, too. I hope those who are just lurking will join us and add their ideas into the mix.

 

[otto]

snipped by me

Am I interpreting that photo correctly? Maiden Lane intersects the bike path?

When the bike path was built, the private land around Maiden Lane was fenced off and Maiden Lane now stops just inside the fenced area. There is an access gate to that private land just East of the Meyers Lake drainage pipe gate ... somewhere around the middle of the treed area.

These photos of Maiden Lane were taken by Ollipop

 

[iamnotagolem]

So let's say that Elizabeth DID routinely ride her bike with her friends down to the lake without her parents knowledge or permission. Did she do so of her own initiative or did Tammy give her permission? If Tammy gave her permission (which I assume is the case for the one instance that we know of that Elizabeth rode to the lake with her neighbors) why would she do so without Heather and Drew's knowledge?

If Elizabeth rode her bike to the lake every day with her friends, then where we're her friends this day? How did she convince Lyric, her older cousin, to run off to the lake when she knew that if she wasn't back when grandma was ready to leave that she would be in trouble?

 

[chelsea6]

I recall Tyson being mentioned. Does it have shift work that changes around that time of day? I'm sure a lunch break would give enough time but I'm thinking some perv got off work and did this on his way home.
And with Maiden Lake being a former party spot, the killer likely was raised in the area. He may have known who the girls were but never talked to them. Just knew them from living in the area for so long.

It has 1st, 2nd, and 3rd shifts as well as some part time workers. Actually, it's not even Evansdale, sorry. It's address is Waterloo, but on this side of Waterloo, we just go on Dubuque rd. past Evansdale, then make a left go down a ways and there it is, so I always thought the address was Evansdale. That's the way I drove when I worked there.

 

[Beyond Belief]

I've been thinking about how fast they were riding those bikes in the film clip. Like they were chasing after someone. That and the quick exit leaving unfinished drinks on the counter. Does the house have a window view of any busy street that they could see a truck or van that they recognized? Maybe someone they made friends with that was giving them, say, junk food off the truck.

 

[SoBeCzar]

It looks like a vehicle would leave impressions in the grass and surrounding trees.

 

[Marilynilpa]

So let's say that Elizabeth DID routinely ride her bike with her friends down to the lake without her parents knowledge or permission. Did she do so of her own initiative or did Tammy give her permission? If Tammy gave her permission (which I assume is the case for the one instance that we know of that Elizabeth rode to the lake with her neighbors) why would she do so without Heather and Drew's knowledge?

If Elizabeth rode her bike to the lake every day with her friends, then where we're her friends this day? How did she convince Lyric, her older cousin, to run off to the lake when she knew that if she wasn't back when grandma was ready to leave that she would be in trouble?

BBM

I haven't seen it reported that Lizzie rode her bike to the lake every day. I believe Mr. C said that Lizzie usually rode to the end of the block and turned around.

If it was Lizzie who convinced Lyric to ride to the lake, it might have something to do with their "sisterly" relationship. A lot of fussing and fighting, according to Heather and Drew, but at the end of the day they wanted to spend the night together. I can see a situation in which Lizzie says she's been to the lake and Lyric hasn't, in a taunting kind of way like sisters sometimes do, and Lyric says she could go to the lake if she wanted to, Lizzie says prove it, and off they go.

The above is total speculation on my part, of course. I don't know whose idea it was to go to the lake, or if they even WENT to the lake that day.

 

[Squeeze]

Thanks for the info.

Ha.. goes to show how regional differences come into play so much more than we'd think. Where I live in July 83 degree max would be like "YES! Finally a day cool enough to go outside!" In other places including Waterloo I can see how that'd be a hot day. I can recall going to Canada and wearing coats/sweaters when the locals were in swimsuits/shorts. I think that's why local insight is so helpful in these cases.

Have to disagree. This was one of the better days of the summer. Most of the summer was hot, and 83 is pretty much perfect. Might have been slightly humid because of the raining the morning.

 

[otto]

I haven't really thought out a theory, I just have always thought it odd that more than one Casey's has been involved in this investigation over various situations. Today was the first time that I noticed that the Casey's on Lafayette is directly across the street from the post office the girls rode their bikes at. So I looked to see where the others mapped out. Prior to that someone mentioned a delivery driver and I got to thinking.

When I lived in a rural area that was plentiful with Caseys I would see the same delivery guy at several of them in our county, it was not uncommon for me to be traveling from my town, to a town 20 miles to work where there was another Casey's. There were two other caseys that I would pass if I took alternate routes from home to work. I would see the same delivery guy at all four of those Casey's.

It's interesting to see the Casey stores mapped out, because the three make a loop on a fairly major road and then it's straight north to where the children were found. Is the delivery truch a 5T truck or a van? Would a 5T truck be noticed on 270 Street travelling towards 7 Bridges Park?

 

[Marilynilpa]

bbm

The possible implication of this just hit me.

Stranger danger anyone?

If she actually was as friendly as Mr. and Mrs. C said, the neighbors would be "friends" in Lizzie's eyes, I suppose.

LE has most likely ruled out everyone in that area, but what if someone had a friend/relative visiting once in a while who noticed Lizzie.

Just another idea to kick around.

 

[otto]

It looks like a vehicle would leave impressions in the grass and surrounding trees.

There were tire tracks and 3 pop cans in the area - per Ollipop when he photographed the area.

 

[otto]

BBM

I haven't seen it reported that Lizzie rode her bike to the lake every day. I believe Mr. C said that Lizzie usually rode to the end of the block and turned around.

If it was Lizzie who convinced Lyric to ride to the lake, it might have something to do with their "sisterly" relationship. A lot of fussing and fighting, according to Heather and Drew, but at the end of the day they wanted to spend the night together. I can see a situation in which Lizzie says she's been to the lake and Lyric hasn't, in a taunting kind of way like sisters sometimes do, and Lyric says she could go to the lake if she wanted to, Lizzie says prove it, and off they go.

The above is total speculation on my part, of course. I don't know whose idea it was to go to the lake, or if they even WENT to the lake that day.

The lawn watering man's wife is the one that said a young girl rode her bike there every evening and visited with people on the street.

"“I broke down for the first time because I was so used to, especially Elizabeth, seeing her every night ride her bicycle and she always stopped and talked to people. She was a friendly little girl,” Marcella Carpenter said. “You know, it’s hard when you’ve got a grandchild the same age.”

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...-missing-Iowa-girls-after-their-disappearance

 

[SoBeCzar]

I was firmly believing the girls were abducted where the bikes were found. After looking at the maps and reading some of the posts I now am leaning towards them meeting up with someone and willingly loading up their bikes. Of course after they got in everything changed and the bikes were dumped. Someone bribed them to go.
Some of the comments that changed my mind were that they were riding fairly fast and the one comment about them appearing to be on a mission. Also they did not have time to ride there before Grandma"s appt.

eta: they may have had time to ride there but knew of the appt and would not have tried.

 

[SapphireSteel]

So let's say that Elizabeth DID routinely ride her bike with her friends down to the lake without her parents knowledge or permission. Did she do so of her own initiative or did Tammy give her permission? If Tammy gave her permission (which I assume is the case for the one instance that we know of that Elizabeth rode to the lake with her neighbors) why would she do so without Heather and Drew's knowledge?

If Elizabeth rode her bike to the lake every day with her friends, then where we're her friends this day? How did she convince Lyric, her older cousin, to run off to the lake when she knew that if she wasn't back when grandma was ready to leave that she would be in trouble?

Maybe Lyric encouraged Lizzie.

IIRC it was Lyric who'd disappeared with another older cousin, shortly before this incident, but they turned up.

 

[Squeeze]

That is correct. But in addition to that, Mr C also said he was familiar with Elizabeth because she would ride her bike to the end of his street, turn around, and wave at him -- frequently.

This brings to mind the movie Cousin Vinnie where the witness swears they saw the car or the guys. Only they didn't have their glasses on. Maybe Mr C was mistaking Elizabeth for someone else??? Or someone else for Elizabeth.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I was firmly believing the girls were abducted where the bikes were found. After looking at the maps and reading some of the posts I now am leaning towards them meeting up with someone and willingly loading up their bikes. Of course after they got in everything changed and the bikes were dumped. Someone bribed them to go.
Some of the comments that changed my mind were that they were riding fairly fast and the one comment about them appearing to be on a mission. Also they did not have time to ride there before Grandma"s appt.

Based on what we've been told.

It's quite possible that's not exactly how it went.

:cow:

 

[Marilynilpa]

It's interesting to see the Casey stores mapped out, because the three make a loop on a fairly major road and then it's straight north to where the children were found. Is the delivery truch a 5T truck or a van? Would a 5T truck be noticed on 270 Street travelling towards 7 Bridges Park?

I don't know the answer to that question, but it brought to mind something I've seen many times near my neighborhood. There is a rather large park, one road in/out. Often I'll see delivery trucks, vans, etc. sitting there. Maybe the drivers are taking a lunch break, or checking messages, or whatever, and prefer to do it off of a main road where there isn't much parking available, I don't know. But I do see them there quite often, even larger trucks/vans.

Anyway, although Seven Bridges is out of the way, if someone had half an hour or more between appointments/deliveries and wanted a quiet place for a bite of lunch or somewhere to check voicemail messages or send texts or whatever, maybe they would park there. Especially if it was mid-way between delivery points.

Yet another idea to kick around.