IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #24

[georger]

The linked article in the National Geographic explains the facts surrounding the mummified body.

I am an anthropologist, by training.

 

[georger]

I think the police were at a disadvantage at the start of the investigation. Because this sort of thing doesn't happen in a place like Evansdale, I think that investigators initially gave the benefit of the doubt in assessing the situation and assumed that the girls had wandered off after parking their bikes at the SE tip of the lake. Crime scene tape was added on Saturday morning. It's possible that the bikes and area immediately surrounding the bikes were not preserved. More than 1000 people searched the areas around the lake and, when the girls were not found, investigators looked in the lake. Police stopped vehicles in the area, which I think was a really good thing. It's quite likely that the person that did this was in the area to see what police were doing. I'm sure that they already have the name of the guilty party, but I doubt they know who it is.

I doubt that police have any idea what happened. I think that the investigation was complicated, slowed down, because police decided to explore the drug angle. I suppose that's all they had to work with, but I think it's rather farfetched to believe that an angry druggie would stalk a 10 year old child (that lived with her grandmother) to another city, where she was visiting her cousins, and then abduct both the 10 year old and her 8 year old cousin. That, to me, seems like complete fantasy. Why wouldn't an angry druggie abduct the 16 year old child that lived with the father if the angry druggie wanted to lash out at the father?

Now that the bodies have been found, police can probably narrow down their focus. Assuming it is true that the children were murdered shortly after they were abducted, then I think that the focus should turn to a sexual predator. I think that everyone in the areas between Evansdale and 7 Bridges Park should review what they were doing on the weekend of July 13, and anyone that was out of town should have a good look at any family members that remained at home. Someone had business in Evansdale that morning and that person was not accountable to anyone for a few hours in the afternoon.

Even with both avenues (sex vs drugs) there aren't that many people to
look at. Complications set in if this was a random event involving someone
outside the known network. And a massive search of 100 houses at random
isnt reassuring. But that was before any forensics or case development of a
meaningful kind? Hopfully things are now more focused. (Lots of agencies
crawling over each other - hope case management has narrowd that down).

The problem for us is we wont be told anything - so for us it is very
nearly a random 'needle in a whole bunch of haystacks'. Could be this,
could be that, maybe, what-ifs, relying on the evening News or Iowa
Public Radio ... and heresay.

The locals are our best source. Any discussion relies on facts. Without
that .... ?
:banghead:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Even with both avenues (sex vs drugs) there aren't that many people to
look at. Complications set in if this was a random event involving someone
outside the known network. And a massive search of 100 houses at random
isnt reassuring. But that was before any forensics or case development of a
meaningful kind? Hopfully things are now more focused. (Lots of agencies
crawling over each other - hope case management has narrowd that down).

The problem for us is we wont be told anything - so for us it is very
nearly a random 'needle in a whole bunch of haystacks'. Could be this,
could be that, maybe, what-ifs, relying on the evening News or Iowa
Public Radio ... and heresay.

The locals are our best source. Any discussion relies on facts. Without
that .... ?
:banghead:

But it wasn't "random". It was one set group of 110, close together. Helicopters, infrareds and door to door, one night in late October.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I am an anthropologist, by training.

Awesome!!!!

If you get that verified, we can have our very own anthropologist on site!

That would be excellent

:seeya:

 

[georger]

But it wasn't "random". It was one set group of 110, close together. Helicopters, infrareds and door to door, one night in late October.

All I am saying is, it was a "sweep" due to the lack of specific facts,
versus going in three houses or two businesses or 1 place. That is the
sense of 'random' I am using.

All listed sex predators vs. one or two.

Known drug buddies and network of named known people in these people's
lives vs. checking out the whole drug network in Eastern Iowa etc ...

The FBI originally said "possible out of State connection". How specific
that was we dont know, but it suggests a large network which is a lot
more than one or two people in Waterloo - for all we know this could
involve a whole cartel going clear down to Columbia! Who knows?

Those are the senses of random vs. specific I am coming from.

Frankly, I dont know which it is. Im just guessing based on what facts
I hear ... which purport to be facts.

 

[georger]

Awesome!!!!

If you get that verified, we can have our very own anthropologist on site!

That would be excellent

:seeya:

Not interested in that. Dont have the time in any event. I am just John Q
Public here, like everyone else. Like everyone else I want to see these
girls' case get solved, for everyone's sake. I am an Iowan! Thats all that
needs to be said ... Im just a spectator like everyone else.

When the attempted abduction by two people in a white van in CR occurred
just after the disappearance of the girls, I was hoping there was a connection
and that would solve this.. evidently not. I just have an aching feeling something
important is being missed in this case, something that would have solved it quickly
but now time has accumulated to the point I am uneasy there is an easy solution,
and I ask myself why? Something simple that apparently is not known ? I know
people are trying! Lots of well trained dedicated people! I know that in my heart.
The people in law enforcement are trying - seriously trying. But some link is missing,
or we would already have a solution. That's what my instincts tell me -

My personal frustration is nothing compared to the family's frustration and loss,
and that of law enforcement as well ... I wanted the girls found and returned
in the first place!

BTW, many posters here impress me. Or I wouldnt be here. Just thought I should
throw that in - and "no" Im not on any other internet blog or website et cetera giving
daily opinions blah blah blah ... just here like others here. Lets continue ... please!

 

[SapphireSteel]

Not interested in that. Dont have the time in any event. I am just John Q
Public here, like everyone else. Like everyone else I want to see these
girls' case get solved, for everyone's sake. I am an Iowan! Thats all that
needs to be said ... Im just a spectator like everyone else.

When the attempted abduction by two people in a white van in CR occurred
just after the disappearance of the girls, I was hoping there was a connection
and that would solve this.. evidently not. I just have an aching feeling something
important is being missed in this case, something that would have solved it quickly
but now time has accumulated to the point I am uneasy there is an easy solution,
and I ask myself why? Something simple that apparently is not known ? I know
people are trying! Lots of well trained dedicated people! I know that in my heart.
The people in law enforcement are trying - seriously trying. But some link is missing,
or we would already have a solution. That's what my instincts tell me -

My personal frustration is nothing compared to the family's frustration and loss,
and that of law enforcement as well ... I wanted the girls found and returned
in the first place!

It wouldn't mean extra work, you don't have to identify yourself or be anything other than just another poster, but it would mean people pay attention when you post opinions as an expert, like you did earlier.

 

[Marilynilpa]

It wouldn't mean extra work, you don't have to identify yourself or be anything other than just another poster, but it would mean people pay attention when you post opinions as an expert, like you did earlier.

And, georger, you'd have the added benefit of not having people like me asking for a link to an article or publication to back up your opinions. As a verified expert, we're allowed to accept your expert opinions/comments at face value!

ETA: I just remembered that you are also in physics. Maybe you could be verified in both??

 

[otto]

~sbm~

BBM

Respectfully, I'm kind of tired of hearing that LE have no idea.

The 110 house blitz only 8 weeks ago means that they have some excellent ideas and are actively working this investigation in a particular direction.

The assumption that this is a sexual predator is also pretty much baseless. We don't know how the girls died or how they were treated before hand.

Life isn't a CSI show...these things aren't often wrapped up in an hour, or even a day.

LE may well have an excellent idea as to who has done what, (in fact, Thompson has pretty well confirmed that to me with his "we are speaking to people" speech) but providing sufficient evidence for an arrest and a conviction court of law is a whole other ball game.

:cow:

Police went door to door in the area near the SE tip of Meyers Lake looking for leads, information and asking if anyone had seen anything. They also stopped traffic near the lake a couple of times to interview drivers in the area. I have no doubt that investigators are trying to solve this abduction and murder, but if they're going door to door asking people if they saw anything, that suggests to me that they have nothing.

With sexual predators, children are abducted and murdered shortly after the abduction - usually within a couple of hours. That's probably what happened here. I can't think of anyone other than a sexual predator that would abduct two young girls and leave them 20 miles away in an area where they would either not be found, or it would be a stroke of luck that they were found. What other type of person would do that?

It is definitely a "whole other ball game" having enough evidence to charge someone with a crime. Until there is enough evidence, police may have nothing, or they may have some suspicions. At this time, it looks like there is not enough evidence to charge anyone. It's also clear that there was not enough evidence for investigators to know what happened to the girls, or where to find them. So far, they've come up empty handed. The discovery of the bodies may give them a clue to follow, but after 5 months, that questionable.

 

[otto]

Even with both avenues (sex vs drugs) there aren't that many people to
look at. Complications set in if this was a random event involving someone
outside the known network. And a massive search of 100 houses at random
isnt reassuring. But that was before any forensics or case development of a
meaningful kind? Hopfully things are now more focused. (Lots of agencies
crawling over each other - hope case management has narrowd that down).

The problem for us is we wont be told anything - so for us it is very
nearly a random 'needle in a whole bunch of haystacks'. Could be this,
could be that, maybe, what-ifs, relying on the evening News or Iowa
Public Radio ... and heresay.

The locals are our best source. Any discussion relies on facts. Without
that .... ?
:banghead:

I haven't been able to come up with a logical connection between Elizabeth, her home and drugs. This abduction is connected only with Elizabeth's house. Lyric was a guest at her cousin's house, which is in a different city than where she lived. Her parents lived elsewhere, with Misty either in a halfway house or living at her mother's house. Some people have tried to connect Lyric's father with drugs and a drug related abduction, but that doesn't make any sense. Surely there were easier ways to abduct just Lyric if she was the target, and surely it would have seemed more effective to abduct the child that lived with the father than the child that lived with a grandparent.

What sort of drug connection is there to Elizabeth and her house?

 

[otto]

But it wasn't "random". It was one set group of 110, close together. Helicopters, infrareds and door to door, one night in late October.

So ... were police thinking that the children were alive and being kept in one of those houses? If so, their thinking was so far in the wrong direction that it's sad.

 

[otto]

Not interested in that. Dont have the time in any event. I am just John Q
Public here, like everyone else. Like everyone else I want to see these
girls' case get solved, for everyone's sake. I am an Iowan! Thats all that
needs to be said ... Im just a spectator like everyone else.

When the attempted abduction by two people in a white van in CR occurred
just after the disappearance of the girls, I was hoping there was a connection
and that would solve this.. evidently not. I just have an aching feeling something
important is being missed in this case, something that would have solved it quickly
but now time has accumulated to the point I am uneasy there is an easy solution,
and I ask myself why? Something simple that apparently is not known ? I know
people are trying! Lots of well trained dedicated people! I know that in my heart.
The people in law enforcement are trying - seriously trying. But some link is missing,
or we would already have a solution. That's what my instincts tell me -

My personal frustration is nothing compared to the family's frustration and loss,
and that of law enforcement as well ... I wanted the girls found and returned
in the first place!

BTW, many posters here impress me. Or I wouldnt be here. Just thought I should
throw that in - and "no" Im not on any other internet blog or website et cetera giving
daily opinions blah blah blah ... just here like others here. Lets continue ... please!

I agree ... that some critical detail was missed. It could have been something in the area near the bikes, it may have been something from the area where they were put into a vehicle ... something was probably missed because no crime is perfect. I also agree that police have worked very hard to solve this. It may be that fresh eyes looking at the evidence will connect a tire tread to something in the Maiden Lane area ... maybe it's another small connection. I do believe that this person has revisited both the Meyers Lake area (when the investigation started) and the 7 Bridges Park area (perhaps to see if the girls were still obscured by plant growth). I also think that this person has probably shown an unusual interest in the story - eager to talk when others raise the topic.

 

[ozazure]

(snip)

I doubt that police have any idea what happened. I think that the investigation was complicated, slowed down, because police decided to explore the drug angle. I suppose that's all they had to work with, but I think it's rather farfetched to believe that an angry druggie would stalk a 10 year old child (that lived with her grandmother) to another city, where she was visiting her cousins, and then abduct both the 10 year old and her 8 year old cousin. That, to me, seems like complete fantasy. Why wouldn't an angry druggie abduct the 16 year old child that lived with the father if the angry druggie wanted to lash out at the father?
(snip)

It doesn't have to be one pure motive. Days ago I posted to Prue Bird's case, she was murdered as revenge for her grandmother and gma's partner testifying - however the culprit also went on to rape and murder girls of a similar age for no reason except he liked to. So it's not that an "anrgy druggie" wouldn't likely do it, but it is possible someone in a network who is a violent psychopath is given a job he enjoys to do, in which case stalking them to another town is nothing. Prue's killer drove hours upon hours to snatch her from her suburban kitchen.

 

[otto]

It doesn't have to be one pure motive. Days ago I posted to Prue Bird's case, she was murdered as revenge for her grandmother and gma's partner testifying - however the culprit also went on to rape and murder girls of a similar age for no reason except he liked to. So it's not that an "anrgy druggie" wouldn't likely do it, but it is possible someone in a network who is a violent psychopath is given a job he enjoys to do, in which case stalking them to another town is nothing. Prue's killer drove hours upon hours to snatch her from her suburban kitchen.

It sounds like the person that you refereced is a sexual predator and that at least one of his victims was known to him through his associations. It's possible that the same thing happened here. Perhaps Drew knows someone and that person is also a sexual predator. The common theme in the case you reference is that of a sexual predator, not revenge, and I suspect that this case is the same. Perhaps it's a neighbor that knows some of the parents and who is also a sexual predator.

 

[SapphireSteel]

So ... were police thinking that the children were alive and being kept in one of those houses? If so, their thinking was so far in the wrong direction that it's sad.

We still don't know if the girls laid in someone's freezer for 100 days.

Unless you have seen COD or autopsy results somewhere?

 

[SapphireSteel]

It doesn't have to be one pure motive. Days ago I posted to Prue Bird's case, she was murdered as revenge for her grandmother and gma's partner testifying - however the culprit also went on to rape and murder girls of a similar age for no reason except he liked to. So it's not that an "anrgy druggie" wouldn't likely do it, but it is possible someone in a network who is a violent psychopath is given a job he enjoys to do, in which case stalking them to another town is nothing. Prue's killer drove hours upon hours to snatch her from her suburban kitchen.

Everything in this case hangs off how the girls died.

I am uncomfortable in assuming the motive was sexual. So far I have seen nothing that would indicate that to me in this particular case.

There are too many other factors involved for me assume this is just your run of the mill abduction, rape and murder.

For a start, we haven't heard one word from LE to look out for a sexual predator. Compare that to Jessica Ridgway.

 

[borndem]

Originally Posted by Just Pat 22
I watched a documentary about the 3 million old Mountain man they found he was murdered on the mountain and they actually retrieved DNA form his bones in the snow and he was there for a very long time . It was on recently P B S maybe so folks shouldn't second guess what they can and cannot find .



Poster has her dates off, by a factor of 100. 3 mill years ago our species Sapiens didnt even exist, nor 300,000 years ago ( Habilis).
She may be talking about this:

Russians restore face to 30,000 year old Kostenki cave man | THE ...
www.thetruthbehindthescenes.org/.../russians-restore-face-to-30000-year-old-kostenki-cave-man/ - Cached
Jun 30, 2010 ... 1, 2010 BBC News article, DNA analyzed from early European, of the 30,000
year old man in Russia, depicts an ancient Sapien man in ...


In any event, I suggested turning the kids bones over to a physical anthropologist at UI or ISU, but LE evidently not interested ...

BBM

The forensic anthropologists at the Body Farm at UT Knoxville would probably be a big help -- as we've already discussed. This is where so much of this type training takes place. This is what they do. <smh> Such a pity. Maybe LE is under some type of austerity program. I would think the FBI could also help -- perhaps just as a part of their services to LE throughout the county. Seems like this case would qualify...

Mmmmmppppffff. Maddening, isn't it? This would be a great opportunity, seems to me, for some ISU or UI (as you said above) physical anthropology grad student. <sigh>

 

[carbuff]

Yes, but the police in Jessica Ridgeway's case were much more open from beginning to end, where LE in this case has played things close to the vest. They might just have made a different decision in regard to publicizing information.

We don't know anything, really, and won't know anything until there's an arrest and trial.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The FBI have been involved from the beginning.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Yes, but the police in Jessica Ridgeway's case were much more open from beginning to end, where LE in this case has played things close to the vest. They might just have made a different decision in regard to publicizing information.

We don't know anything, really, and won't know anything until there's an arrest and trial.

Indeed.

Police Chief Lee Burke on Jessica's body being found -

Our focus has changed from the search for Jessica to a mission of justice for Jessica," Westminster Police Chief Lee Birk said. "We realize there is a predator at large in our community."

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...irl-jessica-ridgeway-authorities-confirm?lite

Sheriff Tony Thomspon, on the other hand, said -

This discovery doesn&#8217;t end this investigation, it just begins a new chapter,&#8221; said Black Hawk County Sheriff Tony Thompson.

He said the development gives authorities the ability to &#8220;draw conclusions off what we already know, and some of the people we already talked to and likely open up additional avenues for us to pursue
http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_6f1dc2ea-40bf-11e2-9db0-0019bb2963f4.html

Compare the two.

Completely different language, tone, and implication.

:cow: