IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #28

[JaimeInLA]

Meth addicts are not this smart to pull off a crime like this. They make mistakes, hell they can't even stand up straight and calm at the check out line in a grocery store.

I have to disagree with you here, Cinder. Misty is/was a meth addict and I have always been surprised at how well spoken she is in interviews. She is calm and appears to be intelligent.

(I'm NOT saying I think she is involved, just using her as an example.)

 

[cindersoot]

The girls left Elizabeths house and were seen at 12:11 on the camera. Then seen by Mr. Carpenter between 1 and 3? TG called his daughter from the lake's restroom after swerving around the girls bikes at 12:20? Then the bikes were found at the lake by LE at?

 

[cindersoot]

I just think it would be great to go over the timeline with a fine tooth comb. I know we have done it before but maybe we missed something.

 

[palaminodee]

I just think it would be great to go over the timeline with a fine tooth comb. I know we have done it before but maybe we missed something.

how is anyone going to find the killer by going over the timeline at this point?
Nothing personal regarding your idea, I just don't see how it will identify the perpetrator without knowing more details that only LE and the killer knows.

Help me with this one...

 

[Marilynilpa]

I've been trying to educate myself about meth, meth addicts and what meth can cause people to do. It's really chilling. Whether you think meth is involved in the murders of Lyric and Lizzie or not, you might find this article interesting.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

Story after story has come out in recent years about brutal murders and unreal attacks, all caused by delusional meth users. Mothers killing children, a boyfriend beating a girlfriend to death with a hammer, a woman drowning her baby in a washing machine; all these people were high on meth when they committed these unthinkable crimes.

Going beyond typical murder, these cases show extreme violence and torture. “When you get this type of tragedy, it’s not a surprise that drugs were involved,” said Lt. Mark Salazar, the Fresno Police Department’s homicide commander who investigated the latest of these crimes. “Meth has been a factor in other violent crimes.” (1) The National Drug Intelligence Center claims that meth is a top contributor to crimes and thefts. “It drives more crime than other drugs do. Meth is in its own category, because it’s so much more addictive than other drugs,” said Fresno County Sheriff Margaret Mims.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Here's another article about meth addicts:

Cline said even though people high on meth are not thinking clearly, it is likely they know what they're doing but just don’t care.

“The part of the brain that deals with impulse deals with empathy as well, so they are not going to be empathetic or compassionate because their brain just doesn’t have that access to it as much,” said Cline.

http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/health/meth-addicts-lose-compassion

It is horrible reading about meth and its consequences. I didn't realize that many people, especially younger people, can become addicted after just one use.

 

[JaimeInLA]

Here's another article about meth addicts:

Cline said even though people high on meth are not thinking clearly, it is likely they know what they're doing but just don’t care.

“The part of the brain that deals with impulse deals with empathy as well, so they are not going to be empathetic or compassionate because their brain just doesn’t have that access to it as much,” said Cline.

http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/health/meth-addicts-lose-compassion

It is horrible reading about meth and its consequences. I didn't realize that many people, especially younger people, can become addicted after just one use.

Meth is unlike any other drug in that it literally changes the chemistry of your brain with just one use. "Natural" drugs like Cocaine, pot and heroin don't do that. They have their effect and then eventually leave the system. But synthetic/chemical drugs like bath salts and meth permanently alter the structure of your brain.

I have said this before on these threads. People who use meth DO NOT CARE about their kids -- they don't care about ANYTHING but getting their next hit of meth. They forget to feed and bathe their kids, they forget that they HAVE kids. They are quick to anger and have zero empathy -- they literally are no longer capable of it.

 

[Just Pat 22]

The girls left Elizabeths house and were seen at 12:11 on the camera. Then seen by Mr. Carpenter between 1 and 3? TG called his daughter from the lake's restroom after swerving around the girls bikes at 12:20? Then the bikes were found at the lake by LE at?

The call was at 2:27 to TG daughter I recall Carpenters wife stating that it was between 1 PM - 3 PM They were ver familiar with Lizze she was very friendly
It was a fireman that moved the bikes to the fence at 4 PM:seeya:

 

[Marilynilpa]

For otto, and others, I've been trying to find sources to support the fact that saying someone is not a suspect does not mean they have been cleared of wrongdoing. I ran across this snippet of info that provides a little insight:

A suspect is usually a person where probable cause has been established for their arrest, said Howard Payne, a police officer and spokesman for the Madison Police Department.

The probable cause originates from reasonable and well-founded evidence, he said.

Read more: http://host.madison.com/news/local/...805-11e1-ac24-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz2KzoqD9VT

By saying someone is not a suspect, IMO that means there is no probable cause at that time to arrest the person. However, it seems logical that upon further investigation, "reasonable and well-founded evidence" might be uncovered which would lead LE to later arrest that person.

On the other hand, saying someone has been "cleared" indicates to me that after conducting their investigation, LE has determined a person to be clear of any involvement in a crime. JMO.

I don't think "not a suspect" is synonymous with "cleared". JMO.

I have reviewed all of the articles related to this case and I have not seen one single comment from LE stating that anyone has been cleared of wrongdoing.

Unfortunately, that doesn't bring us any closer to figuring out what happened to these two little girls.

 

[otto]

I've been trying to educate myself about meth, meth addicts and what meth can cause people to do. It's really chilling. Whether you think meth is involved in the murders of Lyric and Lizzie or not, you might find this article interesting.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

Story after story has come out in recent years about brutal murders and unreal attacks, all caused by delusional meth users. Mothers killing children, a boyfriend beating a girlfriend to death with a hammer, a woman drowning her baby in a washing machine; all these people were high on meth when they committed these unthinkable crimes.

Going beyond typical murder, these cases show extreme violence and torture. “When you get this type of tragedy, it’s not a surprise that drugs were involved,” said Lt. Mark Salazar, the Fresno Police Department’s homicide commander who investigated the latest of these crimes. “Meth has been a factor in other violent crimes.” (1) The National Drug Intelligence Center claims that meth is a top contributor to crimes and thefts. “It drives more crime than other drugs do. Meth is in its own category, because it’s so much more addictive than other drugs,” said Fresno County Sheriff Margaret Mims.

The children were last seen at 12:11 (12:19 with time correction) on Brovan and there is information that they were at Elmer/Gilbert/Arbutus at 12:30-1:00. Their bikes were at the lake, so presumably they were abducted at the lake after parking their bikes. That, in my opinion, excludes all family members. Other drug addicts could have been in the area at the time.

 

[otto]

For otto, and others, I've been trying to find sources to support the fact that saying someone is not a suspect does not mean they have been cleared of wrongdoing. I ran across this snippet of info that provides a little insight:

A suspect is usually a person where probable cause has been established for their arrest, said Howard Payne, a police officer and spokesman for the Madison Police Department.

The probable cause originates from reasonable and well-founded evidence, he said.

Read more: http://host.madison.com/news/local/...805-11e1-ac24-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz2KzoqD9VT

By saying someone is not a suspect, IMO that means there is no probable cause at that time to arrest the person. However, it seems logical that upon further investigation, "reasonable and well-founded evidence" might be uncovered which would lead LE to later arrest that person.

On the other hand, saying someone has been "cleared" indicates to me that after conducting their investigation, LE has determined a person to be clear of any involvement in a crime. JMO.

I don't think "not a suspect" is synonymous with "cleared". JMO.

I have reviewed all of the articles related to this case and I have not seen one single comment from LE stating that anyone has been cleared of wrongdoing.

Unfortunately, that doesn't bring us any closer to figuring out what happened to these two little girls.

Thanks. It's true that people are not cleared until there is a clear suspect. For example, Jessica Ridgeway's parents were "not considered suspects" until DNA evidence implicated Austin Sigg. Then, the parents were cleared.

 

[otto]

The bikes were discovered at the gate by a volunteer firefighter at 3:40 and the official time that police confirmed that the bikes belonged to the missing girls was 3:58.

At 2:00 the bikes were found by a jogger. They must have remained where they were until the firefighter came across them at 3:40.

Whatever bikes the cyclist saw at 12:20 or 12:27 could not belong to the girls because they were not yet at the lake. They were near Brovan or on their way to the area of Elmer/Gilbert/Arbutus between 12:15 and 1:00.

 

[Marilynilpa]

O/T

If, like me, you get overwhelmed by sadness when thinking about poor little Lyric and Lizzie, you might want to take the time to watch this YouTube video. It is a compilation of clips showing the reunions between dogs and their returning service members. I'm a sucker for these things, I have to admit, and they never fail to cheer me up. Enjoy!

Military Reunions with Man's Best Friend: Dogs Welcoming Home Their Owners from Deployment - YouTube

 

[cindersoot]

The bikes were discovered at the gate by a volunteer firefighter at 3:40 and the official time that police confirmed that the bikes belonged to the missing girls was 3:58.

At 2:00 the bikes were found by a jogger. They must have remained where they were until the firefighter came across them at 3:40.

Whatever bikes the cyclist saw at 12:20 or 12:27 could not belong to the girls because they were not yet at the lake. They were near Brovan or on their way to the area of Elmer/Gilbert/Arbutus between 12:15 and 1:00.

If they were the girls bikes, which I believe they were, then TG had to of just missed seeing, or hearing the abduction.

 

[cindersoot]

Let's just say the bikes were not the girls. Okay so two bikes laying across the bike path at the gates entrance right where the girls bikes were later found along the fence, were somebody elses bikes and that somebody was right where the girls scent was noticed by the dogs, and where the purse was found. And then the girls bikes really show up, and it is their bikes. UGH!

 

[Marilynilpa]

If they were the girls bikes, which I believe they were, then TG had to of just missed seeing, or hearing the abduction.

I completely agree with you. TG must have been there just about at the time of the abduction, IMO.

Too bad he wasn't there just a minute or two sooner - maybe he would have scared off the abductor.

ETA: Although I don't know if these were the girls' bikes. The timing doesn't make sense to me - but then, neither does anything else in this case.

 

[cindersoot]

This is my understanding of the timeline. The girls are seen on Brovan st by camera at 12:19. Mr. Carpenter who is outside watering his lawn sees the girls ride past at 12:30-1:00. Mr. Gamerdinger swerves and misses the bikes at 12:20 ish. Mr. Gamerdinger makes a call from his cell from the restroom at the entrance to the lake at 12:27. At 2:00 the girls bikes are found at the gate south side of lake. At 3:58 it is indeed confirmed that the bikes belong to the girls.

 

[cindersoot]

And in all of this, on a summers day, two girls riding their bikes go missing. And as far as we know, the only person that saw the girls on their bikes was Mr. Carpenter. Lafayette street is a very busy street, I would think someone noticed the girls. But the side streets to me seemed very quiet. In the area of maiden lane and the gate, it is very secluded from view. In order to abduct two girls in broad daylight in town, it would of had to of been a secluded area.

 

[cindersoot]

I completely agree with you. TG must have been there just about at the time of the abduction, IMO.

Too bad he wasn't there just a minute or two sooner - maybe he would have scared off the abductor.

ETA: Although I don't know if these were the girls' bikes. The timing doesn't make sense to me - but then, neither does anything else in this case.

The thing that really bugs the heck out of me is TG looks to be a big man, and the abducter had to of seen TG. Thats taking a HUGE chance, when someone is around that possibly could hear or see something.

 

[Reverie]

I don't think LE has said anyone is "eliminated" or "cleared", just that certain people are not suspects. I agree with you that saying someone is not a suspect is different than saying someone has been cleared.

Here's an example where LE says someone isn't a suspect, and yet no one has been cleared:

Lt. Claudio Grandjean told reporters Friday morning that the husband of a missing Gresham woman is "not a suspect" in the incident. But Grandjean also said that no one has been cleared, either.

http://www.oregonlive.com/gresham/index.ssf/2012/10/gresham_police_spokesman_says.html

So, at least in that case, it was possible to be both "not a suspect" and yet not cleared.

I vaguely recall a news clip of Rick Abben answering a question from someone in the crowd, saying "No one has been cleared".

Anybody else remember that?