IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #29

[CHERIE.T]

I feel your pain. ullhair:

:seeya: Keep up your good work on this thread!

 

[alliemay]

I'm curious because it was quoted in the WCF Courier that this area was only used by fisherman, hunters and the occasional camper. It began to rain at 11am the day the first found the girls, could the second sheet be a campsite I wonder.


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IIRC, I thought I read an article where they referred to the sheets as "tents", which I thought was odd when I read it because to me they do not look like tents at all but sheets, but then again the shots are from the air. Was looking last nice for the article but could not find it. Pretty sure I read it though because I thought it was strange.

 

[Bootsctr]

So sorry to hear Black Beauty's awful story. Thankfully, you were there and able to help her. I had a pony, Honey, who had a similar experience with barb wire. Her foot just above a front hoof was torn up, and the vet cost money we could barely spare. Our pets were/are family, and luckily in those days the vets would take weekly payments in a small town.

My parents were so upset with barb wire they phoned around and got donations of old boards to replace the bottom strands all around Honey's pasture. Bless those folks who donated, apparently a lot of them had had pets, kids, and themselves get ripped up and scarred by that awful wire. I still have some faint scars on my legs and that was long ago

That horse tranquilizer is a very potent drug. A friend is a Vet's daughter, and his Vet bag was never to be touched at home by anyone but himself. And never was. There is theft now of that tranquilizer and it has to be kept these days in locked Vet clinics. Some people are just wicked. Tranquilizers, knock out drops in drinks, tasers,... A friend died in a strange way, was found outside his truck which had been run off the road. The only mark on him was a pinprick on his skin, but nothing was found in his blood. This was 35 years ago. The rumor was he was given a shot of antifreeze, which will stop the heart, and is undetectable. The Truth? Urban legend? Who would do such a thing? I guess some walking among us are evil and can do these things and just go on living their lives and feel no remorse.

Thank you for sharing Honey's story with me. I'm so glad your neighbors and friends were kind enough to donate boards so Honey wouldn't get in the wire again. That warms my soul.

The vet told us about having to keep the tranquilizer under lock and key too. Said you wouldn't go to the lengths people would go to and steal the stuff.

Never would have crossed my mind about antifreeze. I know it is deadly to cats and dogs, but to inject it into someone ... only someone w/o a heart could do such a thing.

 

[TxLady2]

Could someone please explain the following ...

LE have information that only the killer would have knowledge of (paraphrasing).

Why would LE hold this information back. If someone in the population heard someone (perp) discussing this aspect in public, and the person whom heard it called LE to reoprt it, would this not be helpful to LE?

Exactly, how does this work? TIA

IMO

No. 1: It helps to limit the false confessions. Crazy people seem to always come out in droves in a high profile case and confess to the crime to get attention. Don't ask me why people do this, they just do.
No. 2: When theyre questioning a suspect and that suspect mentions something that only the killer(s) would know... bingo! They have their perp!
This is very, very common in murder investigations. Sometimes they can find this out by talking to other people as well... someone might mention that so-and-so told them something, and it matches what LE has not made public. Often this can be the one lead that ties up the case.

 

[threecrazykids]

Not to change the subject, but looking back at the pictures of the white sheets and the distance between the bodies, I wonder how the hunters came across both bodies? The bodies were about 50 yrds apart, so maybe each hunter came across a body? Are did they just find one body and FBI found the other.

I thought about that too. My guess was that they immediately KNEW it was one of the girls, not only by stature, but that they maybe weren't in a fully decomposed condition (just a guess)...and that as soon as they found one, they immediately started looking around for the other.

I'm not sure I would have the heart or stomach to search once I found one...but other people may react differently. They may immediately start scouring the area in hopes that both girls are there.

One maybe was looking in the brush, while the other was calling LE? Or maybe they found one, and immediately got away from the scene and LE found the other body...that could be too.

 

[threecrazykids]

Why/how would I look for something I've never heard said in the first place?

TOS states that links should be provided when stating something as fact, especially when requested...

If LE think the girls were killed elsewhere, we need a link! :websleuther:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1212/06/ijvm.01.html

Here is another link that indicated this as well:

JON LIEBERMAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Yes, Jane. Well, first of all, thoughts and prayers go out to this family for this terrible loss. Police can`t say it, but this is a double murder investigation at this point.

I`ve been talking to police sources for the past 24 hours or so, and they stress to me that they have a lot of information, but the reason why they are not releasing much of it is because much it`s information that only the killer or killers would know, and they do not want to jeopardize the investigation.

That said, my sources tell me the following, which we can report: No. 1, bodies were not found, according to my sources, smack dab next to each other. They were found about 40 to 50 feet next to each other.

The second key point is the theory right now is that this was the dump site. That they are looking for the primary murder scene. In other words, where the bodies were found is not where these two little girls were killed.

In addition, I am told...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Let`s stop you right there. You`re saying the location where the bodies were found is, according to your police sources, not where the girls were killed, correct?

LIEBERMAN: That is correct. Police are looking for the primary murder scene.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to stop for a second to go to Mike Brooks, HLN law enforcement analyst. How would authorities be able to deduce, looking at -- and you`re seeing some of the wooded areas. The girls were found about 25 miles north from where the lake where they disappeared in this wooded area, which is sort of a county park. And now we`re hearing from our sources that they were not killed there. How would cops be able to deduce that from looking around the crime scene?

MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, they`re not finding certain evidence that should be there because they know -- they probably have a pretty good idea of how the girls died, or at least they most likely do, Jane. But they`re -- things they`re seeing there that wouldn`t -- that aren`t there, that would be there if they had been killed right there in that specific area.

Again...take it for what it's worth.:blushing:

 

[threecrazykids]

Was there a big melt in Iowa this Spring? Is the River level up, did it erode any of the river banks? If the killer(s) were not able to return to the site where the girls' bodies were discovered, I wonder if they hoped the runoff in the Spring may erode the river bank enough to carry away or move the girls' bodies?

The Wapsie river DID flood already and it's not spring yet. Could very well be they were hoping they would float downstream...but where they put the bodies would take quite the flooding to wash them since they'd have to make it AROUND the bend to really go anywhere...JMO

 

[watcher9]

IIRC, I thought I read an article where they referred to the sheets as "tents", which I thought was odd when I read it because to me they do not look like tents at all but sheets, but then again the shots are from the air. Was looking last nice for the article but could not find it. Pretty sure I read it though because I thought it was strange.

That is strange.
Does anyone know the correct terminology for a sheet at a crime scene?
Do we have any pictures showing the sheets at a ground level?

 

[jn0920]

The Wapsie river DID flood already and it's not spring yet. Could very well be they were hoping they would float downstream...but where they put the bodies would take quite the flooding to wash them since they'd have to make it AROUND the bend to really go anywhere...JMO

I don't think the killer could have expected the bodies to float around. They knew that it had been a drought lately and like you said they'd have to make it around the bend. IMO


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[jn0920]

That is strange.
Does anyone know the correct terminology for a sheet at a crime scene?
Do we have any pictures showing the sheets at a ground level?

This is the only one I found.. I can't determine if its a tent or a vehicle.



I don't know the term for the white sheets, honestly I don't know if there is one. Also I guess it's entirely possible that one of those sheets/tents was just LE's collection and working tent.


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[roseofsharon]

Ha we all are!

I like to put myself in the perp's shoes. If I had two bodies to dump, I would dump them in the same place. Separating them doubles the risk of one of them being stumbled over and has zero benefit that I can see.

Also, why take them so far into the woods? Two dead bodies, no matter how tiny, do weigh quite a lot. Carrying them so far in would be exhausting, the undergrowth was very high at that time of year. Also, the bodies weren't actually concealed. Carrying bodies so far in then not (apparently) attempting to even hide them makes no sense. Leaving them where they fell, however, would fit with someone who didn't really wish to be handling their victims at all...someone who is merely carrying out an execution.

It just makes no sense, no matter how you look at it...unless you go for the "hunting" scenario, or two separate perps taking one child each.

The only thing that really gels to me is if this crime was committed in a HURRY. Quick, get them to the killing field, we can come back later and bury them.

Except no one had a chance to come back later because LE became suspicious and were watching too close.

Opinion only.

The girls also could have been alive at 7 Bridges and walked in themselves with the killer.

In this scenario, I see the perp as being someone well known to the girls.

Just :moo:

 

[cindersoot]

It is well know the bodies of the girls were found 40 to 50 yrds apart. White sheets laying 50 yrds apart, <modsnip>. jmo

 

[dotr]

When there is a crime of such magnitude, LE are bombarded by false leads, red herrings and the sad and sick who wish to take credit - John Mark Karr is a perfect example in the Jonbenet case.

The quickest and easiest way to rule someone out is to withhold details of the crime which is what is going on here.

I watched a show recently about a 30 year murder which has just been solved because someone said the victim was shot in the face.

Everyone knew the victims were shot, but it was never released that one of them had been shot in the face...hey presto finally an arrest. The perp was confronted and asked about this knowledge and broke down and confessed.

As far as this case in particular goes, I believe that LE knows exactly who did what to whom and when - or they think they do.

They just can't prove it.

This is often because someone has a false alibi that can't easily be broken. Perps alibi each other for example.

I suspect there is so much silence and so much unsaid because Evansdale LE are playing cat and mouse with certain suspects/witnesses trying to get them to either confess something concrete, or turn evidence.

Either that or Evansdale LE are part of the Meth Ring in town and don't want to be exposed for being corrupt and criminals themselves. It happens.

:twocents:

Bingo, imo. Thinking if LE did not have any suspect in mind they would release more info to get tongues wagging and if they do have a suspect - LE will remain tight-lipped until someone slips.

 

[Unique444]

This happened LAST year and there was a Drought.

 

[dotr]

Just found this very good, simple abc for young crime scene students..
http://www.okcareertech.org/educato...and-security-cluster/pdf-files/forensicss.pdf

 

[Tennlyn]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1212/06/ijvm.01.html

Here is another link that indicated this as well:

JON LIEBERMAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Yes, Jane. Well, first of all, thoughts and prayers go out to this family for this terrible loss. Police can`t say it, but this is a double murder investigation at this point.

I`ve been talking to police sources for the past 24 hours or so, and they stress to me that they have a lot of information, but the reason why they are not releasing much of it is because much it`s information that only the killer or killers would know, and they do not want to jeopardize the investigation.

That said, my sources tell me the following, which we can report: No. 1, bodies were not found, according to my sources, smack dab next to each other. They were found about 40 to 50 feet next to each other.

The second key point is the theory right now is that this was the dump site. That they are looking for the primary murder scene. In other words, where the bodies were found is not where these two little girls were killed.

In addition, I am told...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Let`s stop you right there. You`re saying the location where the bodies were found is, according to your police sources, not where the girls were killed, correct?

LIEBERMAN: That is correct. Police are looking for the primary murder scene.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to stop for a second to go to Mike Brooks, HLN law enforcement analyst. How would authorities be able to deduce, looking at -- and you`re seeing some of the wooded areas. The girls were found about 25 miles north from where the lake where they disappeared in this wooded area, which is sort of a county park. And now we`re hearing from our sources that they were not killed there. How would cops be able to deduce that from looking around the crime scene?

MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, they`re not finding certain evidence that should be there because they know -- they probably have a pretty good idea of how the girls died, or at least they most likely do, Jane. But they`re -- things they`re seeing there that wouldn`t -- that aren`t there, that would be there if they had been killed right there in that specific area.

Again...take it for what it's worth.:blushing:

BUBM

An UNNAMED source, allegedly police, on a tabloid news show? I'll wait for Abben to tell us it was a dump site, etc. :moo:

Personally, I think the girls were taken there alive, raped and killed probably long before their bikes were even located. :moo:

ETA: Jon Leiberman works for the Howard Stern show as well as Headline News. I am so not impressed!
http://www.jonleiberman.com/

 

[threecrazykids]

This happened LAST year and there was a Drought.

Yes, but maybe the killer is familiar with the area and knows the river would come up in the spring. The Wapsie was just flooded last week...we have pictures of the road to our cabin and it's completely flooded over the road and back prob 50 feet. Now, granted it's a very low area, but it's definitely wayyyy past where the water typically flows within the banks.

Maybe this person knew that area would typically flood in the spring and hoped the bodies would float away. This is the first winter/spring since the girls went missing, so even though they wouldn't have had summer flooding, spring flooding is way more likely in low lying areas.

 

[Reverie]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1212/06/ijvm.01.html

Here is another link that indicated this as well:

JON LIEBERMAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Yes, Jane. Well, first of all, thoughts and prayers go out to this family for this terrible loss. Police can`t say it, but this is a double murder investigation at this point.

I`ve been talking to police sources for the past 24 hours or so, and they stress to me that they have a lot of information, but the reason why they are not releasing much of it is because much it`s information that only the killer or killers would know, and they do not want to jeopardize the investigation.

That said, my sources tell me the following, which we can report: No. 1, bodies were not found, according to my sources, smack dab next to each other. They were found about 40 to 50 feet next to each other.

The second key point is the theory right now is that this was the dump site. That they are looking for the primary murder scene. In other words, where the bodies were found is not where these two little girls were killed.

In addition, I am told...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Let`s stop you right there. You`re saying the location where the bodies were found is, according to your police sources, not where the girls were killed, correct?

LIEBERMAN: That is correct. Police are looking for the primary murder scene.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to stop for a second to go to Mike Brooks, HLN law enforcement analyst. How would authorities be able to deduce, looking at -- and you`re seeing some of the wooded areas. The girls were found about 25 miles north from where the lake where they disappeared in this wooded area, which is sort of a county park. And now we`re hearing from our sources that they were not killed there. How would cops be able to deduce that from looking around the crime scene?

MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, they`re not finding certain evidence that should be there because they know -- they probably have a pretty good idea of how the girls died, or at least they most likely do, Jane. But they`re -- things they`re seeing there that wouldn`t -- that aren`t there, that would be there if they had been killed right there in that specific area.

Again...take it for what it's worth.:blushing:

So...theoretically they MAY HAVE been shot, but the expected blood loss was not found at the dump site? Just as conjecture. :blushing:
:moo:

 

[jn0920]

It is well know the bodies of the girls were found 40 to 50 yrds apart. White sheets laying 50 yrds apart, hmmm doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that out. jmo

Do you have a picture to show those were tents vs sheets? Or a statement made by LE that their bodies were located that far apart, The courier and KWWL reporting they saw from the sky two sheets? 50 yards apart doesn't substitute for verified information. If this photo was taken from the sky on a rainy day it would make sense to have tents up over evidence, which is why I said its possible the girls were under one and the second was evidence or their tent that LE was set up at.

Please read all of the posts before insinuating that I lack common sense.


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[tlcya]

BUBM

An UNNAMED source, allegedly police, on a tabloid news show? I'll wait for Abben to tell us it was a dump site, etc. :moo:

Personally, I think the girls were taken there alive, raped and killed probably long before their bikes were even located. :moo:

ETA: Jon Leiberman works for the Howard Stern show as well as Headline News. I am so not impressed!
http://www.jonleiberman.com/

sentence 1 and 3, total agreement from me.

Sentence 2, I am still not sure where I land on this one. I believe there may have been a sexual motivation/component to this crime but am unsure if I think the body site was the murder site or a dump site. I am simply not willing to take the unnamed source's word for it, even though it tends to align with my own suspicion that 7 bridges was a dump site. I lean toward it not being the primary scene but not because of some unnamed source.