IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #30

[Bootsctr]

Good point. I, too, have considered that the Maiden Lane area under discussion might be private property or a portion thereof might be private.

When there are no onsite physical delineations in overgrown property, it can be difficult to tell exactly where a Survey Line would fall between adjoining private and public property. imo

The good news though, imo, to have gotten permission to clean up subj property, project planners would probably only have had to get permission from the city and perhaps one private property owner.

Then put up a light and a security camera there on public property, perhaps at that "blind spot," and you've got a memorial...

Bravo! :rocker: :clap: :gthanks:

 

[Marilynilpa]

Regarding the (IMO) over-the-top island memorial, I recall reading a long time ago that Heather is quite a party organizer. Perhaps she sees this memorial as one last "party" to organize for the girls?

I have other comments I'd like to make, but can't figure out how to word them without sounding judgmental or accusing towards Heather and/or Drew. So I'll just say this - I am very puzzled by this memorial, and the motivation behind it.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I have no problem with the Collins having a second service for Elizabeth. Having her actual remains to physically bury will surely help their healing process. I do have a problem when people profit from a child's death. . . My problem would be if they are going to be passing around collection plates at this service for this "island project."

BBM

I don't know if the collection plate will be passed, but I imagine there will be opportunities to donate to the "island project" at Lizzie's service. JMO.

 

[Bootsctr]

Thank you so much!!! Pretty much as I'd pictured it from the pics and maps posted previously. So glad you included a shot of the tree we had used to match up the pics of the park with the pics from the crimescene. :moo:

One odd thought and it's probably stupid, but Drew has a tree cutting business. Is there any chance that someone could have worked for Drew and for the Tree Farm there next to Seven Bridges Park? Or even that Drew would know the people working there?

Interesting thought indeed! Would the Seven Bridges park have become a convenient place for a place to dump debris from a business such as the Tree Farm. I know you can't just dump the limbs and leaves just any where and since Seven Bridges was no longer a popular camping spot maybe somebody used it as a place to dump tree-trimming debris ? ? ?

 

[Bootsctr]

If 7 Bridges was just a dump site for the girls' bodies, I wonder why the remains weren't found side by side. Does placing them in separate locations say anything about the perp? Perhaps he carried one girl and then tired out by time he carried the second girl? Or was he trying to send some kind of message to someone?

This is assuming the two white sheets correlate to where the bodies were found.

It's my opinion 7 Bridges wasn't a dump site. I feel the girls were killed there, probably within a couple of hours of when they were taken. JMO.

I know this has been discussed before but, in light of the fact there isn't much else to talk about, maybe we could revisit this.

I feel they were killed there too, especially in light of 3CK's videos. It feels so remote and I think the killer would feel safe there.

 

[foxbluff]

O/T Link.. pics/video

http://cedarfalls.patch.com/article...a-child-in-waterloo?ncid=newsltuspatc00000001

<snipped>
At about 7 p.m. Monday, police said the boy had been struck by a 1999 Pontiac Grand Am in the 2300 block of Lafayette Street in Waterloo.
The boy was taken to Covenant Medical Center and treated for injuries to his right leg and left arm.

Police said the vehicle was still at the accident scene, but according to witnesses, the driver left the scene of the accident on foot.

Police said the driver was identified as Justin Neil Varney, 31, of 1904 Sycamore Street, Waterloo. He has not been located.

Authorities said Varney also has a warrant for his arrest for Probation Violation.<snipped>

 

[palaminodee]

Back to the Video, (did not have time till today to watch it)
1. cannot thank you enough for taking the time to do this
2. you confirmed what I suspected from the beginning; this person has to have a very big local connection and/or lives in the area. No person from wherever could possibly find this park willynilly. They know both parks and the areas in between.
3. Prayers were definitely answered in finding the girls.
4. The person that did this has to be in somewhat decent shape and health to pull this off. For eg: recovered broken ankle person me, could NOT walk through that area as you did in any easy fashion. In the hot summer/fall when they probably left the girls there, that area has to have had very high brush/grass/pricker bushes and weeds etc... They had to be able to withstand trudging through that area along with heat, bugs etc... to get back there. Also they had to be somewhat smart to pull off this plan (so they think) /strong enough to kidnap them in the first place and get them back in this remote area whether by force (with a weapon of some sort) or by carrying them.

Or they had to know them and coerce them into going with them with some fake scenario.

very sad to see this in a walking perspective, but good information.

 

[threecrazykids]

bbm- not only does your answer make sense, but you were able to figure out what I was trying to ask. Ty.

Now... jumping off your post...

Did you or Cinder (or any others who have made an onsite visit) get any "feelings or impressions" of how perp accessed body site? For example, did you feel strongly that he must have arrived at body site the same way you did, using the same hwy to park entrance and same road w/in park and same pathway?

Or that he arrived at the turnaround by the same route you took but then, instead of taking the path, accessed the body site by walking around the strip of shoreland between mainland and low water mark?

Or did it cross your mind that he might have entered the body site from a small boat?

Or entered thru a property on the complete opposite side of a waterway from where the bodies were found (perhaps wading across waterway or walking across a sandbar)... and by "opposite side," I mean via a property which a vehicle would have had to access from a different hwy than the one you took leading to 7bridges. ???

ETA: questions coming from "the poster" w/dial-up who can't stream videos... grrrh...

I can't speak for Cinder, but I think the "easiest scenario" (if there is one) is to come in the same way we did. Keep in mind...in July the gate would be open. So the person could literally drive right to the turnabout (saving them probably a 200 yard walk from the gate/gravel road that comes into the park).

And in July, with there being no playground equipment, no camping sites, /hookups, picnic tables (that I saw anyway) I think foot AND vehicle traffic in that park is probably extremely slim.

Even though people may fish, canoe, etc. it would be a person or two in passing. I don't see it being what I would consider "heavily used" even in the summer time when I think of an actual park per se.

I don't feel that this person entered by boat. The water level so low, you probably couldn't even get a boat to that location during July of last year.

IF this person entered from private property, they would have had to drive through the woods, cross the Wapsi with bodies in tow, deposit the girls, and exit from the private property. I personally don't think you could drive a vehicle (or even a quad) through where we walked if the vegetation was there. However, hunters haul deer with quads through the timber all the time...so I suppose that's possible. Although I find unlikely, and VERY risky for the noise factor.

 

[threecrazykids]

If 7 Bridges was just a dump site for the girls' bodies, I wonder why the remains weren't found side by side. Does placing them in separate locations say anything about the perp? Perhaps he carried one girl and then tired out by time he carried the second girl? Or was he trying to send some kind of message to someone?

This is assuming the two white sheets correlate to where the bodies were found.

It's my opinion 7 Bridges wasn't a dump site. I feel the girls were killed there, probably within a couple of hours of when they were taken. JMO.

I know this has been discussed before but, in light of the fact there isn't much else to talk about, maybe we could revisit this.

This raises the hair on my neck that you bring this up. I didn't (until I'd been there) entertain the idea that they were killed at the site. Now I'm not so sure that isn't exactly what happened.

If I get back there this weekend, I am going to video tape what makes me think it's very possible.

When you stand at the edge of the water, and look BACK towards the walking path, the body furthest away lies in almost a straight line to the path. The one closest to the water is off to the left, but literally by a few feet.

When I stood there and looked back I immediately saw the possibility they were walked in, got to the spot, something happened (whether it was a weapon brought out, or he tried to pull them to the water, IDK), and they took off running back towards the path.

Now, the BIG question for me, is whether or not that path is always there. I am not sure if the only reason there was such a path is because of LE clearing out a path, or because so many people have walked it since December, or if that path is always there because hunters, nature observers, fisherman, etc. use that same path regularly. :waitasec:

 

[SapphireSteel]

I can't speak for Cinder, but I think the "easiest scenario" (if there is one) is to come in the same way we did. Keep in mind...in July the gate would be open. So the person could literally drive right to the turnabout (saving them probably a 200 yard walk from the gate/gravel road that comes into the park).

And in July, with there being no playground equipment, no camping sites, /hookups, picnic tables (that I saw anyway) I think foot AND vehicle traffic in that park is probably extremely slim.

Even though people may fish, canoe, etc. it would be a person or two in passing. I don't see it being what I would consider "heavily used" even in the summer time when I think of an actual park per se.

I don't feel that this person entered by boat. The water level so low, you probably couldn't even get a boat to that location during July of last year.

IF this person entered from private property, they would have had to drive through the woods, cross the Wapsi with bodies in tow, deposit the girls, and exit from the private property. I personally don't think you could drive a vehicle (or even a quad) through where we walked if the vegetation was there. However, hunters haul deer with quads through the timber all the time...so I suppose that's possible. Although I find unlikely, and VERY risky for the noise factor.

The noise of a quad carrying two girls would sound exactly like a quad carrying a deer so probably wouldn't seem all that risky to a perp who has (maybe) ridden the area countless times and never been approached or witnessed by anyone...:cow:

 

[threecrazykids]

Interesting thought indeed! Would the Seven Bridges park have become a convenient place for a place to dump debris from a business such as the Tree Farm. I know you can't just dump the limbs and leaves just any where and since Seven Bridges was no longer a popular camping spot maybe somebody used it as a place to dump tree-trimming debris ? ? ?

Uh...yes, there is definitely dumping going on at the park. Right as you enter the walking path from the turnabout was a smashed TV laying face down. Also, right by the site of the bodies were 2 big sheets of what appeared to be metal that was all crumpled and mangled. We saw several liquor bottles as well. It's definitely ready for the "spring cleanup". The main traffic areas were nicely groomed, but the "backwoods" areas left a lot to be desired.

 

[threecrazykids]

The noise of a quad carrying two girls would sound exactly like a quad carrying a deer so probably wouldn't seem all that risky to a perp who has (maybe) ridden the area countless times and never been approached or witnessed by anyone...:cow:

:what: I follow your thought process and OMG, you're right. :banghead:

I'm not sure if quads are "allowed" in the park but that wouldn't stop one from bringing one in if no one was around.

 

[SapphireSteel]

:what: I follow your thought process and OMG, you're right. :banghead:

I'm not sure if quads are "allowed" in the park but that wouldn't stop one from bringing one in if no one was around.

Whoever got in there seems to have evaded the deer cameras too, perhaps by crossing private land instead of approaching through the roadway?

 

[SapphireSteel]

This raises the hair on my neck that you bring this up. I didn't (until I'd been there) entertain the idea that they were killed at the site. Now I'm not so sure that isn't exactly what happened.

If I get back there this weekend, I am going to video tape what makes me think it's very possible.

When you stand at the edge of the water, and look BACK towards the walking path, the body furthest away lies in almost a straight line to the path. The one closest to the water is off to the left, but literally by a few feet.

When I stood there and looked back I immediately saw the possibility they were walked in, got to the spot, something happened (whether it was a weapon brought out, or he tried to pull them to the water, IDK), and they took off running back towards the path.

Now, the BIG question for me, is whether or not that path is always there. I am not sure if the only reason there was such a path is because of LE clearing out a path, or because so many people have walked it since December, or if that path is always there because hunters, nature observers, fisherman, etc. use that same path regularly. :waitasec:

This is how I've always seen it. It seems the only thing that really accounts for the bodies being so far apart to my mind, especially if no sexual assault occurred.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Uh...yes, there is definitely dumping going on at the park. Right as you enter the walking path from the turnabout was a smashed TV laying face down. Also, right by the site of the bodies were 2 big sheets of what appeared to be metal that was all crumpled and mangled. We saw several liquor bottles as well. It's definitely ready for the "spring cleanup". The main traffic areas were nicely groomed, but the "backwoods" areas left a lot to be desired.

It sounds like a manky place.

OK on the surface but full of hidden bad stuff, a lot like our perp.

I think whoever dumped them out there knew this was a local trash depository and has possibly dumped other stuff out there as well.

:moo:

 

[threecrazykids]

Whoever got in there seems to have evaded the deer cameras too, perhaps by crossing private land instead of approaching through the roadway?

I'm going to guess that the deer cam was placed there by LE, and wasn't there prior to the bodies being found.

The way the deer cam is placed and how it's facing, was explicitly there to capture images of anyone who visits the site. Granted that's just my opinion...but most people don't put deer cams on public property, as they would be susceptible to anyone to steal.

I'd bet my next paycheck on it...that deer cam wasn't there when this whole thing went down.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Back to the Video, (did not have time till today to watch it)
1. cannot thank you enough for taking the time to do this
2. you confirmed what I suspected from the beginning; this person has to have a very big local connection and/or lives in the area. No person from wherever could possibly find this park willynilly. They know both parks and the areas in between.
3. Prayers were definitely answered in finding the girls.
4. The person that did this has to be in somewhat decent shape and health to pull this off. For eg: recovered broken ankle person me, could NOT walk through that area as you did in any easy fashion. In the hot summer/fall when they probably left the girls there, that area has to have had very high brush/grass/pricker bushes and weeds etc... They had to be able to withstand trudging through that area along with heat, bugs etc... to get back there. Also they had to be somewhat smart to pull off this plan (so they think) /strong enough to kidnap them in the first place and get them back in this remote area whether by force (with a weapon of some sort) or by carrying them.

Or they had to know them and coerce them into going with them with some fake scenario.

very sad to see this in a walking perspective, but good information.

BBM

You're right about the grass/brush etc. It must have been very dense.

I don't believe 7 Bridges was a dump site, but if it was, then I think there had to be two people involved. Everything about this case, IMO, was carefully planned - including disposing of the bodies at 7 Bridges. It seems to me it would be more efficient if one person carried one child, and one person carried the other child. It might explain the location of the remains - one perp was unable to make it as far as the other perp.

One person could have carried the girls, one at a time, but that would mean a greater likelihood of being seen, and much greater physical exertion, IMO.

 

[SapphireSteel]

BBM

You're right about the grass/brush etc. It must have been very dense.

I don't believe 7 Bridges was a dump site, but if it was, then I think there had to be two people involved. Everything about this case, IMO, was carefully planned - including disposing of the bodies at 7 Bridges. It seems to me it would be more efficient if one person carried one child, and one person carried the other child. It might explain the location of the remains - one perp was unable to make it as far as the other perp.

One person could have carried the girls, one at a time, but that would mean a greater likelihood of being seen, and much greater physical exertion, IMO.

Yep. Two perps, or one perp with a gun, and two live girls.

Dead girls would've been dumped together in my opinion, and probably hidden better, maybe buried but at least covered in undergrowth.

Two girls dumped so far apart, implies haste...or at least, no attempt to hide the bodies. This could in turn imply a "hands off" type of crime, a crime of convenience committed by someone who didn't want to get the girls' blood on their hands.

What makes me sickest is that I believe they walked to their deaths willingly with someone they trusted which would fit this scenario. :sick:

 

[SapphireSteel]

I'm going to guess that the deer cam was placed there by LE, and wasn't there prior to the bodies being found.

The way the deer cam is placed and how it's facing, was explicitly there to capture images of anyone who visits the site. Granted that's just my opinion...but most people don't put deer cams on public property, as they would be susceptible to anyone to steal.

I'd bet my next paycheck on it...that deer cam wasn't there when this whole thing went down.

It may have been moved since, from what I understand there are several deer cams randomly placed throughout the park. It seems odd that at least one of them didn't record something, especially on the roadway.

Or maybe they did, we just haven't heard about it...

 

[cindersoot]

bbm- not only does your answer make sense, but you were able to figure out what I was trying to ask. Ty.

Now... jumping off your post...

Did you or Cinder (or any others who have made an onsite visit) get any "feelings or impressions" of how perp accessed body site? For example, did you feel strongly that he must have arrived at body site the same way you did, using the same hwy to park entrance and same road w/in park and same pathway?

Or that he arrived at the turnaround by the same route you took but then, instead of taking the path, accessed the body site by walking around the strip of shoreland between mainland and low water mark?

Or did it cross your mind that he might have entered the body site from a small boat?

Or entered thru a property on the complete opposite side of a waterway from where the bodies were found (perhaps wading across waterway or walking across a sandbar)... and by "opposite side," I mean via a property which a vehicle would have had to access from a different hwy than the one you took leading to 7bridges. ???

ETA: questions coming from "the poster" w/dial-up who can't stream videos... grrrh...

I will just speak for myself cause I know threecrazykids has her own theories. But the impression I got while at seven bridges was what I always thought, that he drove the bodies there at night, he knew the area very well, and took one body at a time dumping it. My strongest feelings were not at seven bridges but at Maiden Ln. I cried the whole time I walked around that area. The feelings I got in that area I will never forget.