IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #30

[otto]

I agree that the two white sheets most likely indicate where the remains were located.

As for separating the girls to manage them, that's certainly a plausible explanation for why the bodies were located 20-50 feet apart. But I also feel it's possible the killer had a gun, shot one girl, the other one tried to run away, and he shot her. JMO.

Statistically speaking (from stats regarding abducted/murdered children), strangulation is far more common. I can't imagine that anyone would take a chance of using a gun and drawing attention to himself. The person that did this was careful to do everything possible to avoid detection. Using a gun contradicts that. I don't believe that a silencer was used (that just seems really farfetched to me). They were probably strangled with their own clothing, as that would minimize the amount of evidence connecting the murders to the perp.

 

[foxbluff]

Uh...yes, there is definitely dumping going on at the park. Right as you enter the walking path from the turnabout was a smashed TV laying face down. Also, right by the site of the bodies were 2 big sheets of what appeared to be metal that was all crumpled and mangled. We saw several liquor bottles as well. It's definitely ready for the "spring cleanup". The main traffic areas were nicely groomed, but the "backwoods" areas left a lot to be desired.

bbm - Were these 2 sheets of metal by chance silverish in color like roofing tin torn from a bldg? In other words, could the metal sheets have appeared white from far above?

I know the chance of that is slim. However, I'm also wondering if the perp perhaps covered the bodies w/these metal sheets before he left.

 

[otto]

bbm - Were these 2 sheets of metal by chance silverish in color like roofing tin torn from a bldg? In other words, could the metal sheets have appeared white from far above?

I know the chance of that is slim. However, I'm also wondering if the perp perhaps covered the bodies w/these metal sheets before he left.

According to the reporter:

""In the park were white sheets at two spots about 50 feet apart, according to a KCRG reporter."

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_394b71f6-3f2c-11e2-8ae9-0019bb2963f4.html

 

[foxbluff]

It may have been moved since, from what I understand there are several deer cams randomly placed throughout the park. It seems odd that at least one of them didn't record something, especially on the roadway.

Or maybe they did, we just haven't heard about it...

I don't know how deer cams operate. If they operate like some security cameras, wouldn't they keep recording over and over on the same tape?

If so then perp wouldn't be on tape by Dec. 5th, imo.

 

[cindersoot]

That's the dried riverbed. That's how low the water was there last year. Right now the water is free flowing through there like it normally would...but last year it was completely dried up.

I think in the video where I show the "infamous tree", you also see how much the water is up from what it was in the pic you're asking about. I say something like "this is looking BACK up the river" while I'm standing at the edge of the bank drop off.

I'm wondering if the perp could walk across that dried river bed. I will have to look closer at the area next time.

 

[threecrazykids]

bbm - Were these 2 sheets of metal by chance silverish in color like roofing tin torn from a bldg? In other words, could the metal sheets have appeared white from far above?

I know the chance of that is slim. However, I'm also wondering if the perp perhaps covered the bodies w/these metal sheets before he left.

They were silverish, but rusted as well. I couldn't say what they came from. I think one of the videos actually shows when I'm panning around the area. They weren't big enough to cover a body. Also, if they were of any significance I would think LE would have removed them as evidence.

 

[otto]

I'm wondering if the perp could walk across that dried river bed. I will have to look closer at the area next time.

Are you thinking that someone drove across an acreage that is private property and then crossed the creek with the children rather than driving on the public road that leads to that area? Why would anyone do that?

 

[otto]

It's snowing!

 

[cindersoot]

Okay - well, if you are able to find a link to whatever it is you saw or heard, please provide it. Up until now, I thought the "dump site" theory was just something Jon Lieberman said for sensationalism.

Yes I will look for it.

 

[threecrazykids]

I don't know how deer cams operate. If they operate like some security cameras, wouldn't they keep recording over and over on the same tape?

If so then perp wouldn't be on tape by Dec. 5th, imo.

The cameras are digital and I'm sure vary in how they operate. Typically the dates/times are timestamped on the captured image as well so deer hunters can calculate the time of activity.

Hunters typically check the cams every week or 2, and since it's not a constant rolling of a tape I don't think it would go over and over the same recordings. I really don't know though...I know the hunters in my family all check theirs weekly (in the fall during the approaching the hunting season).

 

[cindersoot]

Are you thinking that someone drove across an acreage that is private property and then crossed the creek with the children rather than driving on the public road that leads to that area? Why would anyone do that?

Otto, I just wonder if the perp could of drove closer than we thought to the dumping/murder site. Not really meaning that he drove across a field.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Statistically speaking (from stats regarding abducted/murdered children), strangulation is far more common. I can't imagine that anyone would take a chance of using a gun and drawing attention to himself. The person that did this was careful to do everything possible to avoid detection. Using a gun contradicts that. I don't believe that a silencer was used (that just seems really farfetched to me). They were probably strangled with their own clothing, as that would minimize the amount of evidence connecting the murders to the perp.

BBM

You're right about that. Here is a link to a very long PDF document about child abduction murder research.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/uploadedFiles...)/Child_Abduction_Murder_Research/CMIIPDF.pdf

On page 53 of this document it states the most common cause of death in child abduction homicides is strangulation (33.2%), followed by blunt force trauma (23.3%), stabbing/cutting (23.9%), and firearms (11.8%). This document is from 2006, but I doubt these particular statistics have changed substantially since then.

So based on the statistics, strangulation is the likeliest cause of death.

But I'm stubborn, so I'm not willing to give up on the gun theory just yet.

I agree that the perp had everything carefully planned, but to me that doesn't preclude him using a gun at 7 Bridges. It isn't easy to pinpoint where a gunshot originates. In this remote area, I feel it's unlikely anyone would have heard the gunshots and reacted quickly enough to reach the perp's location in time to catch him driving away. JMO.

 

[Marilynilpa]

It's snowing!

Prepare the french toast!!!

 

[cindersoot]

I completely agree. I can't see anyone going to all the trouble to driving remains to a remote area, and not bothering to bury the remains. The two points seem to contradict each other. That is, either someone will transport remains to a remote location and then do everything possible to hide those remains at that remote location, or the children were simply driven there on the afternoon of July 13, murdered and left lying in the forest where they were found.

Furthermore, there were plenty of other places to leave remains without taking the trouble of making two trips a distance of about 400 feet.

There really isn't plenty of other places to leave remains in Iowa. I mean you have clusters of woods here and there, corn and bean fields and rivers and lakes. Dumping in a river could of been his first choice, yet the rivers were very dried up. I really believe that he took them to his property first and killed them there, then moved them later. I have heard that killers will dump the body as far from their property as possible to distance themselves from the crime. To disassociate themselves.

 

[otto]

Otto, I just wonder if the perp could of drove closer than we thought to the dumping/murder site. Not really meaning that he drove across a field.

I really doubt it. The path of least resistance is the one that would have been used ... that means the road in Seven Bridges County Park. It's only a short walk from the parking area (just East of the looped road) to where the children were found. Every other route is far more challenging.

Any suggestion that the children were free to run or walk in that area does not make any sense. They had been abducted and they were going to be murdered. They would have been restrained from the moment they were in the perp's vehicle until such time that they were found.

 

[otto]

BBM

You're right about that. Here is a link to a very long PDF document about child abduction murder research.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/uploadedFiles...)/Child_Abduction_Murder_Research/CMIIPDF.pdf

On page 53 of this document it states the most common cause of death in child abduction homicides is strangulation (33.2%), followed by blunt force trauma (23.3%), stabbing/cutting (23.9%), and firearms (11.8%). This document is from 2006, but I doubt these particular statistics have changed substantially since then.

So based on the statistics, strangulation is the likeliest cause of death.

But I'm stubborn, so I'm not willing to give up on the gun theory just yet.

I agree that the perp had everything carefully planned, but to me that doesn't preclude him using a gun at 7 Bridges. It isn't easy to pinpoint where a gunshot originates. In this remote area, I feel it's unlikely anyone would have heard the gunshots and reacted quickly enough to reach the perp's location in time to catch him driving away. JMO.

It's not easy to pinpoint the exact location of a gun shot, but it sure gets people attention and they do know the approximate direction. Last night, around midnight, someone set off fireworks in the endowment lands near here. It got my attention ... enough that I got up and looked. A gun shot is noticed, especially outside of hunting season.

 

[otto]

There really isn't plenty of other places to leave remains in Iowa. I mean you have clusters of woods here and there, corn and bean fields and rivers and lakes. Dumping in a river could of been his first choice, yet the rivers were very dried up. I really believe that he took them to his property first and killed them there, then moved them later. I have heard that killers will dump the body as far from their property as possible to distance themselves from the crime. To disassociate themselves.

Why would anyone carry someone that weighed 140 pounds a distance of 400 feet when there are plenty of other secluded areas where someone could park a car and hide a body ... like Austin Sigg with with the culvert in Jessica Ridgeway's murder?

 

[foxbluff]

Sometimes extreme busy-ness keeps our minds off of what we don't want to think about. :blushing: :moo:
:seeya:

Yes, I agree.

Jumping off Rev's post - In the theme of "to everything there is a season," I personally would prefer to see that needed busy-ness directed towards giving the girls' siblings back as normal a homelife as possible.

 

[cindersoot]

Why would anyone carry someone that weighed 140 pounds a distance of 400 feet when there are plenty of other secluded areas where someone could park a car and hide a body ... like Austin Sigg with with the culvert in Jessica Ridgeway's murder?

Why? Because he is deperate, because he can, because he knows the area and that it is secluded. A hunter can carry a very large buck farther than that. I don't think the killer is a wimp, if he is a 240lb man and he is carrying a 145lb dead weight body, I really don't see a problem with that.

 

[cindersoot]

Also Austin Sigg was a scrawney kid who did a sloppy job at covering his tracks.