IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #30

[superbee]

Keep in mind, only Heather said she identified ELIZABETH'S shoes. Nowhere did LE state that Lyric was identified by her shoes.

These girls would be treated as 2 separate "instances" when it comes to the families (I hope that makes sense).

They wouldn't have taken both Lyric AND Elizabeth's shoes to Heather to identify. Someone from Lyric's family (even though they are still family) would have been taken to probably Misty or Grandma to identify any clothing of Lyric's (if it was found at the scene).

Thank you for the correction!

 

[SapphireSteel]

One other thing that I find kind of interesting is that there are actually 2 parks in that area, yet the perp chose Seven Bridges.

Siggelkow Park (also spelled Siggelkov Access County Park on google maps) is literally ON THE SAME ROAD you take to Seven Bridges (from Fairbank). On our drive to Seven Bridges, we came upon Siggelkow Park which also had a vehicle parked outside the gate, but there were a few kids running around in the grassy area inside the gate of the park.

It makes sense though, that the perp would use Seven Bridges to dispose of the bodies, as Siggelkow Park could be more active. There are campsites (although primitive), but there IS a boat ramp there.

However, Siggelkow park would be DOWN river from Seven Bridge, and that stretch is not a popular stretch to canoe. There is nowhere at Seven Bridges to really get out...you'd have to climb up the bank at Seven Bridges to get out.

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_eb5c81b6-42db-11e2-b39a-001a4bcf887a.html

http://www.mycountyparks.com/County/Black-Hawk/Park/Siggelkow-Park.aspx

Excellent points.

For the life of me, I can't imagine a scenario that would cause a perp to purposely dump the girls so far apart...even accidentally.

It also strikes me as very odd that they weren't hidden in some way.

I always like to follow KISS and quad bikes on pickups just doesn't make sense to me, only because it's extra planning and effort, which would make sense if they also went to the trouble of burying or hiding the bodies.

They didn't bury them though...so do we have a bunch of planning of how to transport bodies but zero planning on what they will do with the bodies once they got there? One child dumped, then he went 50 feet on his quad and said "damn I forgot one" and dumped it right there?

No. Just can't see it. The only way those two girls got that far in to that area and that far apart afterwards is because they were alive and they walked/ran in themselves.

Opinion only so pick it to pieces!

:moo: :cow:

 

[threecrazykids]

I don't know about that either.

Heather and Drew had custody of Lyric for a long time. It is quite possible Heather bought Lyric's shoes herself imo...

I think the lack of commenting on Lyric stems from the family estrangement, not necessarily a lack of knowledge.

Also, apparently Kent Smock is a close personal friend, I can't imagine he didn't inform them about Lyric as well knowing the parental relationship they had with her.

Of course :moo:

I agree with you that more than likely that the Collins' would have been informed of both girls deaths, as they were family and if they weren't both found that would be of major significance.

But wouldn't the police have the obligation to treat these as 2 separate murders? Even if the Collins' did have custody of Lyric at one time, I would think that if they weren't the current guardians they would have to notify the legal guardians first. Maybe because it's a small town and they are family it is being treated differently.

I guess I just think that if these girls were NOT cousins, but friends playing together, that each family would be required to identify the remains, clothing, etc. all separately. Would that change because they are family? Or is it a case of treating Heather and Drew in one way, and Misty/Dan/Wylma as "second hand" parents?

I would be furious if I were Lyric's parents and LE took my daughter's ANYTHING to my sister to identify when her remains were found. I can see them asking Wylma to identify items, but not Heather. But maybe because the Collins' are so buddy buddy with LE, maybe they get the special treatment and Dan and Misty have been treated as the "second hand parents" of Lyric. :furious:

 

[Marilynilpa]

I really don't think that Wylma, who was looking after the children at the time that they vanished, had anything to do with where the children were found. Therefore, I think it's a given that these children were abducted by a non-familial person ... essentially, a stranger. Whether the children had met the stranger before makes no difference in terms of the violence of an abduction and murder.

I think we'd all prefer to believe that an abduction/murder is a gentle event, but the reality is that an abduction/murder is not a gentle, or kind, event. Even Natalie Holloways mother preferred to believe that her daughter passed out and the perp chose to hide the body rather than provide medical assistance. What we know today is that the suspect in Natalie's murder was anything but gentle - given the evidence in the murder of his second victim.

Much as we want to believe that these children had no idea what was happening to them until the last moment, I just don't think that's realistic. Jessica Ridgeway was not treated in a gentle manner prior to her murder either and there is no reason to assume that these children believed that they were on a field trip to a remote location with a non-familial person ... a field trip that ended in their unexpected assault an murder. That just doesn't make sense.

otto, I feel like you are talking down to those of use who do not believe the same things you do. I hope I am wrong in that feeling.

I never said the girls were kidnapped by a family member, I said the girls went willingly with someone they trusted - could be a family friend, church member, even someone from the neighborhood they knew. This "non-familial person", as you call it, does not have to be a stranger IMO.

Yes, the girls were abducted (even though they didn't, IMO, know they were being abducted), but there didn't necessarily have to be violence involved at the beginning. JMO.

I am a reasoning adult who has the right to interpret things in my own way. I am not trying to sugar coat anything, or pretend the girls were treated in a gentle manner at all times. Because I feel the girls went willingly with an adult they trusted, I feel it's completely possible the girls were abducted and transported to 7 Bridges without violence. JMO.

 

[carbuff]

You could MAYBE get a quad down there, but there is no boat ramp or anything at this park, so getting it back out would be a pain in the ass.

Keep in mind, this dried up riverbed is just a section of a curve in the river...so more than likely I'm ASSUMING it would still not be "stable" ground to drive on. It would be a sandy, silty, muddy consistency which would be very risky to drive on with any amount of weight, as getting stuck would be very probable.

Again, no boat ramp, so a vehicle couldn't be used either.

Thanks, yes, that's what I wanted to know. Sometimes riverbeds like that are gravelly and firm, but it doesn't sound like this is one of them.

I suppose a person who normally carried a quad in their pickup might have slide-out ramps that would make the in-and-out easier. But it still sounds very unlikely.

 

[superbee]

Something we can pick apart....

The tree farm. Could it fit in with any of this? Was there any connection between the tree farm and any or all of the families? Did any of the families go to the tree farm?

Was the perp a person known to the girls, enough they would willingly go with them? Would the offer of going for a ride to the tree farm be enough of a lure that the girls would willingly go with the perp in their vehicle?

And the perp drives to the park, telling the girls they will go through the closed tree farm gate by the park, to surprise 'so and so' who is at the tree farm that afternoon. The girls willingly walk with the perp, are overpowered, and killed in some way.

 

[watcher9]

Just going backwards to review the posts.
3CK and Cinder, thanks so much for your videos and pics!!!!
Very well done. As we grow, we learn many things, I'll bet you are now well versed in posting videos. Thanks again for your determination. :rocker:

I have a few questions:

1. Deer cams; I now nothing about them. Wondering how they are monitored, and how long they record. Is there a time span? Do they "expire"?

2. I see discussion re: public vs private land. What is the significance?

3. Tree Farm; very interesting.

4. As an avid nature lover, I take my binoculars everywhere. It's goose nesting time here, they are pairing off. Broods to be seen soon. Hummingbirds in my yard in summer, can't wait. Ducky babies on the lake. Hawks galore and the occasional Bald Eagle. Many swans here as well, don't mess with them, they can be very aggressive.


One September night last year, windows open I heard a very strange call in the wild. I listened in awe.
I discovered it was a loon, migrating on my lake. Something I will always remember.


Voices: Common Loon - YouTube

Thank you for posting this video.
It was so fascinating to listen to the loons talking to each other.
If I had heard them at night, I would have thought it was a wolf howling at the moon.

 

[threecrazykids]

otto, I feel like you are talking down to those of use who do not believe the same things you do. I hope I am wrong in that feeling.

I never said the girls were kidnapped by a family member, I said the girls went willingly with someone they trusted - could be a family friend, church member, even someone from the neighborhood they knew. This "non-familial person", as you call it, does not have to be a stranger IMO.

Yes, the girls were abducted (even though they didn't, IMO, know they were being abducted), but there didn't necessarily have to be violence involved at the beginning. JMO.

I am a reasoning adult who has the right to interpret things in my own way. I am not trying to sugar coat anything, or pretend the girls were treated in a gentle manner at all times. Because I feel the girls went willingly with an adult they trusted, I feel it's completely possible the girls were abducted and transported to 7 Bridges without violence. JMO.

I agree with you on this. There is nothing to suggest a struggle thus far. The bikes (when found) were up against a fence, the purse wasn't ransacked, simply laid down, and no flip flops, etc. left behind which would also indicate a resistance of some sort.

From everything I've seen so far, I believe these girls went with the perp. If LE found any sign of a struggle I don't think they would have waited a week to proclaim the girls abducted.

The fact that LE believed them to be alive and EVIDENCE that led them to that belief (that was sent to the lab), also presents a possibility that this person DID keep them alive for some length of time before depositing their bodies at the park.

I haven't seen any reason so far that leads me to believe they didn't go willingly with this person.

 

[RNER]

I keep thinking the perp(s) somehow "blended in" to the remote and secluded areas of the abduction site (Maiden Lane) and the final resting place (Seven Bridges). To not draw attention or be seen, heard, or considered suspicious in both locations and to remain elusive for this length causes me to feel like their presence would not have alarmed anyone or be considered abnormal or unexpected if they were seen. With reports of both locations being locked or protected by gates, someone would have had access to those areas and felt comfortable enough in the surroundings to not alert anyone to something being amiss. Who or what kind of person could this be?

This was either a well-planned and executed abduction or it was done by someone who had a reason or excuse for being in both locations, and felt very confident that they weren't going to be suspicious if noticed.

 

[threecrazykids]

Something we can pick apart....

The tree farm. Could it fit in with any of this? Was there any connection between the tree farm and any or all of the families? Did any of the families go to the tree farm?

Was the perp a person known to the girls, enough they would willingly go with them? Would the offer of going for a ride to the tree farm be enough of a lure that the girls would willingly go with the perp in their vehicle?

And the perp drives to the park, telling the girls they will go through the closed tree farm gate by the park, to surprise 'so and so' who is at the tree farm that afternoon. The girls willingly walk with the perp, are overpowered, and killed in some way.

I have been letting the tree farm connection simmer around in my brain as well.

The tree farm and Drew's business would be a direct conflict, wouldn't they?

 

[Marilynilpa]

I have been letting the tree farm connection simmer around in my brain as well.

The tree farm and Drew's business would be a direct conflict, wouldn't they?

I think so - one business grows trees and one business trims them/cuts them down.

 

[cindersoot]

Ty 3cks... great description and most appreciated!

Do I dare impose further on you and Cinder by asking another question... this one which is probably of no interest to anybody but me!?!

Well, apparently I do dare: When you were near 7bridges did you happen to notice a farm bldg/outbldg and think "aha... bet that's the bldg LE gathered in on Dec. 5th to make plans for the next day's search, etc.?"

ETA: I'm only looking for a yes or no answer here.

In Iowa there are a lot of gravel roads that lead to farms, and while driving to 7 bridges thats all I saw, the normal farm houses and barns that go with them.

 

[Sere-nity]

Where are the new trees for the island project going to be from?

 

[cindersoot]

Has anyone read the latest from Sheriff Adden about talking to your kids about stranger danger? He says not to be afraid to let your kids play outside, and that there is nothing to be afraid of. What a joke, kinda makes me mad because we have a killer on the loose.

 

[B4igo2it]

The Full Moon of July 2012 occurs on July 3. It is known as the Hay Moon

On Tuesday July 3 at 2:52PM Eastern Time a full moon will occur at 12 deg Capricorn

 

[superbee]

I think so - one business grows trees and one business trims them/cuts them down.

I am not sure what exactly each business does. Does the tree farm grow trees for the public to come and buy for their yard, for Christmas tree sales, for commercial yard care businesses, or a combination of all three?

What does the public do if they want a tree, and need someone to make a hole and plant that tree in their yard?

I know Drew trims and cuts down trees, but does he also plant trees in client's yards? I wonder if a client wants a certain tree for their yard, can they employ him to go and get a tree from a tree farm, have a hole dug in their yard, then he brings in and plants the tree for them?

If Drew does this, I wonder if he gets his trees from the tree farm near where the girls' bodies were found? Are there any other tree farms in the area?

 

[Arod]

Has anyone read the latest from Sheriff Adden about talking to your kids about stranger danger? He says not to be afraid to let your kids play outside, and that there is nothing to be afraid of. What a joke, kinda makes me mad because we have a killer on the loose.

Maybe that's a hint that they know who did this and are close to an arrest...hope so.

 

[B4igo2it]

I cannot find any info on the tree farm @ 7 Bridges. Does that mean it is no longer a producing/usable tree farm?

 

[carbuff]

Excellent points.

For the life of me, I can't imagine a scenario that would cause a perp to purposely dump the girls so far apart...even accidentally.

It also strikes me as very odd that they weren't hidden in some way.

I always like to follow KISS and quad bikes on pickups just doesn't make sense to me, only because it's extra planning and effort, which would make sense if they also went to the trouble of burying or hiding the bodies.

They didn't bury them though...so do we have a bunch of planning of how to transport bodies but zero planning on what they will do with the bodies once they got there? One child dumped, then he went 50 feet on his quad and said "damn I forgot one" and dumped it right there?

No. Just can't see it. The only way those two girls got that far in to that area and that far apart afterwards is because they were alive and they walked/ran in themselves.

Opinion only so pick it to pieces!

:moo: :cow:

Well, no, if he had both bodies on the back, and pushed one off without stopping, then pushed the other one, they'd probably be about that far apart.

 

[carbuff]

I keep thinking the perp(s) somehow "blended in" to the remote and secluded areas of the abduction site (Maiden Lane) and the final resting place (Seven Bridges). To not draw attention or be seen, heard, or considered suspicious in both locations and to remain elusive for this length causes me to feel like their presence would not have alarmed anyone or be considered abnormal or unexpected if they were seen. With reports of both locations being locked or protected by gates, someone would have had access to those areas and felt comfortable enough in the surroundings to not alert anyone to something being amiss. Who or what kind of person could this be?

This was either a well-planned and executed abduction or it was done by someone who had a reason or excuse for being in both locations, and felt very confident that they weren't going to be suspicious if noticed.

Two that come to mind off the top of my head are somebody fishing, and a person with binoculars, a hat, and a bird book -- you find crazy birders almost anywhere telling you to shhhh, there's a titmouse.