IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #30

[otto]

otto, I provided an alternative source when I edited my post. I also provided a link to a government research study on Child Abduction Murder. I don't know what other supporting evidence I need to provide.

Bottom line, IMO, is that statistically speaking, the abduction and murder of one child is extremely rare - thus I feel the abduction and murder of two children has to be even rarer. Not saying it never happens, of course it has happened before.

Several recent cases have already been posted on this thread, and there are probably many more cases of double abduction/murder if one were to specifically research the frequency of that type of crime over the centuries using the international community. I don't think that any conclusions can be drawn about the perp based on the fact that this was a double abduction/murder.

 

[Reverie]

Why would someone kidnap the girls when neither family is wealthy? We are assuming the kidnappers knew the families...right? With most ransom notes, there is the demand to not talk to anyone. So how would they expect the family to come up with the money? Obviously, we don't know how much the kidnappers would have even requested...but for the kidnap of two girls....It had to be a pretty high amount, right? I know that 100k is a lot of money to a lot of people, but I'm also thinking, for a crime like this, you feel like the kidnappers would ask for more like $1 million. But then how could they expect the families to come up with that amount of money?

Makes sense. As far as a ransom note, the only reason I can think of would be if someone faked their abductions for ill-gotten gain. LE there is mum; they have cosseted away what they know until the fateful day of an arrest.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Several recent cases have already been posted on this thread, and there are probably many more cases of double abduction/murder if one were to specifically research the frequency of that type of crime over the centuries using the international community. I don't think that any conclusions can be drawn about the perp based on the fact that this was a double abduction/murder.

BBM

And it is certainly your prerogative to believe that.

 

[otto]

BBM

And it is certainly your prerogative to believe that.

What sort of conclusions can be drawn about the perpetrator when two children, as opposed to one child, are abducted and murdered at the same time?

 

[cindersoot]

People who hurt children and animals are the lowest of the lowest. I read in my local paper this morning a very disturbing story that ruined my day. Someone found a pet carrier abandoned with three cats, two were dead and one is fighting for its life. I swear, this kinda stuff just hits me right in the gut.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I find this discouraging:

"This was a very unique situation with those two girls, and hopefully one that will come to resolution here shortly -- and I don't know that (it) will, but we are certainly hopeful," said Smock.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/21941711/...f-says-stranger-danger-conversation-important

BBM

 

[Marilynilpa]

People who hurt children and animals are the lowest of the lowest. I read in my local paper this morning a very disturbing story that ruined my day. Someone found a pet carrier abandoned with three cats, two were dead and one is fighting for its life. I swear, this kinda stuff just hits me right in the gut.

Aww, that is so horrible. (((HUGS)))

 

[superbee]

I find it interesting that tree farm is right next to 7 Bridges.
Thank you 3CK! :rocker:

Around here, the "tree guys" just remove trees, mostly for safety reasons or they are unhealthy. After Hurricane Sandy they were everywhere.

They take down trees, cut branches interfering with cables and lines etc.
They remove the debris, have bucket trucks, chippers, etc.

I had 2 huge pine trees come down at work. Thank God they missed the building and cars in the lot. It cost about $1,000 for landlord to remove them. I also watched a pine come down in a storm on my car.
Power was out, so I couldn't even call anyone. Neighbors came with chain saws and removed it. :rocker:

It's the Landscapers that do the planting, planning, design etc. They may also clear trees as well. It's the Landscapers who purchase trees and shrubs from wholesale nurseries. Being in the floral business, I can purchase wholesale from various suppliers.

True Landscapers here need an architectural degree. Hence my comments about plans etc.

A "Tree" business may crossover or make referrals to clients as to where to purchase and who to use via recommendations. One hand washes the other.

I would like to add, that all this equipment is very costly. These guys have big trucks, bucket trucks, dump trucks, back hoes, trailers, chippers, etc........
hence the high price tag. Not to mention insurance etc.

I am looking for the link for the tree farm (HELP! lease: )
IMHO, a tree farm is usually benign acreage. However, IIRC, they do more (ie; landscaping, retail nursery, snow removal etc.) The proximity to 7 Bridges has me wondering.

Apologies for my long post, just trying to put it all in perspective from my real life experience. :blushing:

Thank you for explaining how 'the tree guys' and other yard people work. Your post is very interesting and I really enjoyed reading it. I love trees. It is hard for me to know how thing work there, because I am so far away, and in another country. Where I live it is much smaller scattered population, so many of the 'tree guys' here do it all.

I am trying to think of a tree farm connection too, since the wonderful video showed that gate to tree farm property. That gate really bugs me. Did someone who works, or had worked at the tree farm, take the girls? Was the tree farm property used to get to the park or escape?

Was it someone who had some connection to the tree farm, and somehow the girls had met and trusted him? Then later, dressed as a park worker of some sort, in a park worker truck or van, he approached the girls, somehow lured them into his vehicle, and drove out to the park?

Was it a cute, young, friendly guy who had befriended, or somehow knew the girls, and was working that summer as some kind of worker that took him, or supposedly took him to that park for cleanups? Maybe he asked the girls to go along for a 'quick fun ride' that day to check out things in that park? Maybe this guy has worked at the tree farm, and had seen one or both of the girls sometime in the past, and it sparked something evil in him?

The park is secluded and has several unmarked roads, even someone who lived close by had to figure out what road to use. And the tree farm land right there, and one of the families is connected to trees. How could anyone not local know about the place, and make their way in and out, supposedly undetected. No wonder we are rooting around.

 

[roseofsharon]

What sort of conclusions can be drawn about the perpetrator when two children, as opposed to one child, are abducted and murdered at the same time?

We've probably tried to profile the perpetrator before, but imo, it's worth discussing further.

The girls totally trusted this person to go with him/her ... an authority figure or dressed like one, someone known to E's family and whom E had previously met, neighbour, store employee familiar to the girls, a parent or sibling of one of E's friends, someone living very close to Meyers Lake.

Since both girls loved dogs, I can't get the idea out of my head that they were lured by someone walking their dogs asking for help.

Male, sociopath, living alone, 40-55.

imo

 

[alliemay]

Someone who takes two at one time shows that his desire is stronger than his fear of getting caught, IMO. Also greedy and self centered.

 

[otto]

We've probably tried to profile the perpetrator before, but imo, it's worth discussing further.

The girls totally trusted this person to go with him/her ... an authority figure or dressed like one, someone known to E's family and whom E had previously met, neighbour, store employee familiar to the girls, a parent or sibling of one of E's friends, someone living very close to Meyers Lake.

Since both girls loved dogs, I can't get the idea out of my head that they were lured by someone walking their dogs asking for help.

Male, sociopath, living alone, 40-55.

imo

Are you thinking that when two children are abducted at the same time, the children had an established trust relationship with the abductor, but when one child is abducted, that child does not have to have a trust relationship with the abductor?

Children are abducted by strangers when they are lured towards a vehicle. If a lure, such as a puppy, was used, then there would not necessarily be an established trust relationship between the victims and the abductor (eg: recent Wyoming case). Wouldn't it be equally likely that two children would approach a stranger to see a puppy as one child approaching a stranger to see a puppy? After one child was incapacitated, the second would be easy - especially in a secluded area like the SE tip of Meyers Lake.

I'm trying to understand on what basis it can be concluded that when two children are abducted, there has to be some sort of established trust relationship between the victims and the abductor.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Several recent cases have already been posted on this thread, and there are probably many more cases of double abduction/murder if one were to specifically research the frequency of that type of crime over the centuries using the international community. I don't think that any conclusions can be drawn about the perp based on the fact that this was a double abduction/murder.

On the contrary, the FBI devote entire departments to behavioural analysis of perps like this.

We cannot draw any firm conclusions here on WS, simply because we don't know enough...but based on what we do know, a few valuable insights and educated guesses have been shared.

Even the best profiler in the world cannot get it spot on 100% of the time, but if you read in depth to a solved murder case of any kind, you will probably find someone from LE say "we believed we were looking for a person who was **** because of what they did/left at the scene".

Experienced homicide detectives do not need the services of the FBI because their instincts are so finely honed they can identify and pursue a suspect, most of the time.

We only read the statistical rarities on WS, the ones where there is no obvious suspect (or too many), or proof, or evidence, or even a body or a crime scene sometimes.

The girls were found. The dump site and/or crime scene will reveal a lot, as will the site of the bikes, how they were staged, IF they were staged.

How a perp managed to magic away two girls on bikes in the middle of town in the middle of the day in the middle of summer, without being seen by ANYONE is most definitely relevant when looking for a suspect :moo:

 

[Marilynilpa]

What sort of conclusions can be drawn about the perpetrator when two children, as opposed to one child, are abducted and murdered at the same time?

I don't know if I can draw a conclusion, but I can speculate about it some.

It's rare for a perp to abduct, and then murder, one girl. It's even rarer for a perp to abduct two girls at once, and then murder them.

So when two girls are abducted together and murdered, I have to wonder about the type of perp who would commit such an extremely rare crime.

For instance, when a perp abducts a child, the motive is usually sexual assault. Is sexual assault still the usual motive when two children are abducted, or do other factors come into play in a two-child abduction versus a one-child abduction?

I haven't read all of the cases involving two girls being abducted at the same time, then murdered, but I know in one of the cases the perp was the boyfriend of one of the girls. So I'm curious as to whether the selection of two victims says anything about the perp in our case. Is it likelier that he was known to the girls as opposed to being a stranger?

I don't think I'm explaining myself very well, sorry.

 

[roseofsharon]

Are you thinking that when two children are abducted at the same time, the children had an established trust relationship with the abductor, but when one child is abducted, that child does not have to have a trust relationship with the abductor?

Children are abducted by strangers when they are lured towards a vehicle. If a lure, such as a puppy, was used, then there would not necessarily be an established trust relationship between the victims and the abductor (eg: recent Wyoming case). Wouldn't it be equally likely that two children would approach a stranger to see a puppy as one child approaching a stranger to see a puppy? After one child was incapacitated, the second would be easy - especially in a secluded area like the SE tip of Meyers Lake.

I'm trying to understand on what basis it can be concluded that when two children are abducted, there has to be some sort of established trust relationship between the victims and the abductor.

Not necessarily otto, but in this case, I do think it is possible the perp could have been known and trusted by the girls OR not known to them, but trusted by them, as someone they knew through seeing them in the community, perhaps someone a child would look up to.

I should have been more clear .... regarding the dog(s) scenario, I don't think this was a person or persons known to the girls and agree with you that one child or two children together could easily be lured by a perp with a puppy.

imo

In a previous post I made, imo, the perp with dog(s) scenario lives very close to the lake, walks their dogs at the park, passed the girls on the lane, took their dogs home, came back to Maiden Lane with their vehicle and then lured the girls to the vehicle, i.e. something pertaining to the dogs. Just imo and all speculation.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Are you thinking that when two children are abducted at the same time, the children had an established trust relationship with the abductor, but when one child is abducted, that child does not have to have a trust relationship with the abductor?

Children are abducted by strangers when they are lured towards a vehicle. If a lure, such as a puppy, was used, then there would not necessarily be an established trust relationship between the victims and the abductor (eg: recent Wyoming case). Wouldn't it be equally likely that two children would approach a stranger to see a puppy as one child approaching a stranger to see a puppy? After one child was incapacitated, the second would be easy - especially in a secluded area like the SE tip of Meyers Lake.

I'm trying to understand on what basis it can be concluded that when two children are abducted, there has to be some sort of established trust relationship between the victims and the abductor.

This particular case has a unique set of circumstances which make this highly likely in my estimation.

My reasons for stating this are -

1. these girls were street smart and educated on stranger danger. We know this for a fact.

2. the abductor managed to take them from a public park, extricate them from their bicycles silently and unseen, with no sign of a struggle. I don't know if you have ever tried to catch a child of any size before but they are like eels. I will take any perp both arms to hold and subdue one struggling child. Two struggling children are going to be noisy, time consuming, effortful, and are going to leave scuff marks in the dirt, or drag marks, or broken twigs. We apparently have none of that here.

3. there was evidence at the scene which appears to have caused LE to think the girls may not have even got to the lake in the first place.

4. The question of WHY they went to the park in the first place, when they were expected home, remains unanswered.

5. The point where they were allegedly taken looks like a "trap". Some perp found the trap and waits there for children. So how long does he wait? A day, a week, a month, an hour? Every second he waited (for what might never happen) was a second he risked being caught.

6. In all the other cases quoted, the abduction was an aggressive act. Jessica Ridgeway, Carlie Brucia, Dru Sjodin - the perp sees the victim and snatches impulsively, or they stalk and hunt. They don't sit passively around alleyways and bike trails waiting for an unattended child or two.

7. In the unlikely event he did decide to be the only passive abductor in history, why wasn't he seen? Do we believe that he's pulled in there for a few minutes on the offchance of a unattended child or two in a public park (like that ever happens these days) and they just happen along at the very right moment for him to silently pounce and spirit them away, all without being seen or heard?

Usually a perp snatches what he wants. This case it appears as though he WAITED for what he wanted...which implies to me at least, that he knew his prey, and knew they were coming, and was waiting for them in particular, which in turn implies he knew them well.

To me, anyway. Of course :moo:

 

[Marilynilpa]

The wordpress blog link was provided in connection with the suggestion that it is almost unheard of that: two female children are abducted at the same time, and that they are later found murdered. I like to view the original source and understand whether that conclusion can be drawn. Without reviewing research papers on the subject, a case from the UK always comes to mind when this point is raised.

I think it's rare that two young girls are abducted at the same time, but it does happen.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/ian_huntley/index.html

From your link above:

Several witnesses who claimed to have seen the girls after they left their home came forth during the investigation. Ian Huntley, 29, a caretaker of Soham Village College, who had assisted in the search, told investigators that he had seen the girls walking by his house that he shared with his girlfriend, Maxine Carr, 29, the girls' primary school teacher assistant at around the time they left the barbecue. He was believed to have been one of the last persons to see Jessica and Holly after they had left their home.

snip

In a storage building at Soham Village College, an officer found a garbage bin with the half burned remains of Jessica and Holly's Manchester United jerseys along with their shoes. It was one of the first big breaks in the investigation. Following the find, police arrested Huntley and his girlfriend Maxine Carr on suspicion of murder. Their suspicions would be confirmed later that same day.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/ian_huntley/index.html

In this case, the murderer was the boyfriend of the girls' primary school teacher assistant. I think the possibility exists that this man was not a stranger to the girls.

This is the type of info I'm referring to when I say that the general rules may not apply when dealing with a two-child abduction.

 

[SapphireSteel]

From your link above:

Several witnesses who claimed to have seen the girls after they left their home came forth during the investigation. Ian Huntley, 29, a caretaker of Soham Village College, who had assisted in the search, told investigators that he had seen the girls walking by his house that he shared with his girlfriend, Maxine Carr, 29, the girls' primary school teacher assistant at around the time they left the barbecue. He was believed to have been one of the last persons to see Jessica and Holly after they had left their home.

snip

In a storage building at Soham Village College, an officer found a garbage bin with the half burned remains of Jessica and Holly's Manchester United jerseys along with their shoes. It was one of the first big breaks in the investigation. Following the find, police arrested Huntley and his girlfriend Maxine Carr on suspicion of murder. Their suspicions would be confirmed later that same day.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/ian_huntley/index.html

In this case, the murderer was the boyfriend of the girls' primary school teacher assistant. I think the possibility exists that this man was not a stranger to the girls.

This is the type of info I'm referring to when I say that the general rules may not apply when dealing with a two-child abduction.

Holly and Jessica were known to Huntley and Carr.

This case is relevant in that a (known and trusted) female partner was involved in the abduction, which is possibly the case with our girls too imo.

 

[Marilynilpa]

This case on WS is about two girls, Mattie Restine and Patty Pritz, ages 13 and 14 out for a swim on a summer's day, who were ultimately found together, both had been beaten/sexually assaulted and shot at close range.Many in the town were suspected...
NM NM - Double murder of Mattie Restine (13) & Patty Pritz (14), Carlsbad, 1961 - #2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Thanks for posting this case, I was unaware of it

In reading through the posts, I found this one interesting:

Mattie Restine was not raped and he [coroner] was unable to determine if Patty Restine had been molested sexually. Her body, he said, was in an advanced stage of decomposition.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NM NM - Double murder of Mattie Restine (13) & Patty Pritz (14), Carlsbad, 1961 - #2


Statistically, sexual assault is the primary reason a perp abducts/murders a child. But in this double abduction/homicide, sexual assault apparently was not the primary factor as it pertains to Mattie Restine.

So again, I have to wonder if there are different reasons a perp abducts and murders two girls.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Gracie & Tiffany Purnhagen - the bodies of these two sisters were found only a few miles from my home. A most bizarre murder. Gracie Purnhagen, 16, and her sister, Tiffany, 9 were last seen at a bowling area.

http://www.murdervictims.com/Voices/PurnhagenNews.htm

In this particular case, Gracie's ex-boyfriend was involved. Again, no stranger involvement in this double abduction/homicide.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Holly and Jessica were known to Huntley and Carr.

This case is relevant in that a (known and trusted) female partner was involved in the abduction, which is possibly the case with our girls too imo.

Right, the perp's girlfriend gave him an alibi saying she was with him when, in fact, she wasn't.

I keep thinking something like that is going on in Lyric and Lizzie's case. JMO.