IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #32

[joerose]

Imo, investigators may or not have had a suspect in mind since July 13, 2012, which ironically, happens to be my birthday. With the resources brought in such as the FBI BAU3 CARD team; http://www2.fbi.gov/card/, L & L's primary abductor/murderer suspect RSO M. J. Klunder, should have been in their sights very early on, if not before imo.

There are at least 3 other cold cases of missing females within MJK's geographical hunting area, imo.

http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/Poli...vansdale-Abductions-Connection-212170001.html

Investigators said three girls, Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins from Evansdale and Kathlynn Shepard from Dayton, died. The fourth girl, Dezi Hughes, managed to escape the Dayton kidnapping.

"We would still be looking for them, I believe. And we wouldn't know who, what, when, why or how," said Hughes' mother, Jeanette Andrews. “And (Klunder would have) moved on to the next set. I don't think he was ever going to stop."

http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/Poli...vansdale-Abductions-Connection-212170001.html

Heather Collins, the mother and aunt of the abducted Evansdale cousins, truly hopes there is a connection.

"He could be the guy," Collins said. "He knew Waverly pretty well. We're just waiting on the authorities to do their job -- FBI, DCI and police."

Foxfire, it's my birthday too.

 

[georger]

Yes just wondering what the federal labs do that the state lab does not. Maybe something to do with partial DNA?

The wording of the article pretty much states it:

(a) "the national lab has greater capabilities than those at the state level"
Means just what it says. Can test materials for dna, partial prints, particle and fibre analysis,
etc. State labs generally don't have the capability, flexibility, depth, or staff or time! Most
State forensic labs are pretty much a cookie cutter operation. Give them the dough and they
have twelve patterns you can chose from - camels, fish, dogs, cats, bird, cow, star, santa,
reindeer, etc. Plus they do prints and photo matching. This in contrast to State Hygenic Labs
which today are very sophisticated operations ...

(b) "“It’s predominately evidence that would have DNA relevance,” Meyers said. “We’ve been
working for the last week or so to determine what evidence would meet the necessary
submission for the FBI crime lab.”
That could include clothing, blood stained evidence, skin cell evidence looking for contact dna.
Etc. Sounds like they have been talking to Quantico probably enumerating the material
evidence they have, and asking Quantico to advise on what to send in for testing ... the tests
could be for a variety of things not just dna/mtdna.

(c) "He would not say what the evidence was or where it was found"
Probably includes several or even many types of evidence from both locations ... to do a
comparative analysis.

The article is shallow on any real details except perhaps for the pace at which things are
proceeding ... sounds like the bulk of major evidence at Dayton has been collected, they
contacted the FBI to arrange for testing which in this case is the proper direction to go ...
and it could be a number of months before any results are available.

That's my reading of this article.

 

[Dr. Know?]

I found that to be interesting.

IMO, it's also interesting that the FBI has a separate Behavioral Analysis Unit for crimes against children. Further proof to me that those crimes are unique behaviorally from crimes against adults.

Yes, a serial killer's behavior can change midstream, therefore needing both and there's other reason they may need both in many crimes.

Read wiki's (sorry about that it was handy) listed top serial killers. By the time you are done reading about their behaviours, you will be shaking your head like me. Switching from one gender to the other, switching from children to adults, from boy to girl, from boy to man, to elderly, reason to kill over anything from drug rip offs to radicals then to different types of murder methods in a period too, you name it. Sadly, I think the majority were women & children then the elderly. gah

I don't think there's enough DNA until it's tested by the FBI. Partial would help. I hope they check a bunch of others too to make darn sure!

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

List of serial killers by number of victims - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/index.html

 

[Bootsctr]

If the DNA evidence from this case was tiny and/or degraded, they may have sent Klunder's DNA to the FBI because they will need to do more precise and sophisticated testing on it than is usually done in the DCI lab in Ankeny.

The article quoted doesn't specify which case the DNA came from, so it could be Klunder.

Welcome back Grainne Dhu! Your input has been sorely missed by all! :seeya: I'm so glad you are feeling better. O/T, but I've been practicing some scent work with my beloved lab, Annie. She thought I was crazy at first (that is debatable), but once she got the hang of it, it was fascinating to watch her. She still acts kind of silly, but you're right 10 or 20 minutes of having her find hidden treats wears her out. Vet says she has to lose 20 lbs or I may lose her to heart disease. She's only 5 y/o so I appreciate your suggestion for getting her out there and doing something. She is the type of dog that seems to "need a job", if that makes sense. She will hardly leave my style and I really am kind of a cough potato - not good for my heart either. Sorry for the rambling. Again, welcome back! :rockon:

 

[Bootsctr]

Foxfire, it's my birthday too.

Maybe our birthday wishes for Joe and Foxfire will be granted and we will know if Klunder is the monster who killed Elizabeth and Lyric ? We can hope right ? :drumroll: lease:

 

[Bootsctr]

The article states that the FBI has testing facilities the locals do not have.]

I'm kind of excited, this is the first I've heard about DNA actually, physically existing, not just a vague reference to "evidence".

lease:

I'm excited too SS! I'm taking this as a positive sign. But, surely it must be only a minute amount. Maybe the girls' bodies were not as badly decomposed as I have believed. If they struggled DNA could be under fingernails if those were available - but I feel we would have had a match already if that had been available. I keep thinking about poor Kathlynn. Someone suggested that after the large pool of blood was found that perhaps Klunder had punched her in the nose which I think would be entirely possible. It's possible if someone was punched in the mouth his knuckles could have been scraped by the victim's teeth and DNA could have remained there? Prolly not though! Ugh! What a monster! I go back and forth between being glad he killed himself to he took so much information to his grave with him. Not one shred of decency in the beast. . .

 

[Bootsctr]

Yes, a serial killer's behavior can change midstream, therefore needing both and there's other reason they may need both in many crimes.

Read wiki's (sorry about that it was handy) listed top serial killers. By the time you are done reading about their behaviours, you will be shaking your head like me. Switching from one gender to the other, switching from children to adults, from boy to girl, from boy to man, to elderly, reason to kill over anything from drug rip offs to radicals then to different types of murder methods in a period too, you name it. Sadly, I think the majority were women & children then the elderly. gah

I don't think there's enough DNA until it's tested by the FBI. Partial would help. I hope they check a bunch of others too to make darn sure!

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

List of serial killers by number of victims - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/index.html

Most excellent links! I recently (last week) watched the Biography Channel bio on Andrei Chikatilo (never heard of him until cindersoot told me about him - thank you cindersoot :tyou. "Known as Butcher of Rostov, The Red Ripper or The Rostov Ripper. Convicted of the murder of 53 women and children between 1978 and 1990. Executed in 1994. Three people were previously convicted and executed for his crimes." Horrible being! He was married and had children; however, he was never able to have intercourse with his wife (according to Biography). He was only able to achieve sexual arousal with the killing of his victims. He's another "one" who was able to hold down a job and had all the outward appearances of being "normal" and I think that allowed him to have such a high victim number of 53! He hoped to win an insanity plea and be sentenced to a mental hospital, but that didn't work out for him. I also think Klunder suffered from some sort of sexual dysfunction which may be one reason he preferred 2 victims to 1. Apologies for the graphic details. Trying to catch up on everyone's great links as always! Much reading ahead. As always, I appreciate the links and I feel I have a great deal of learning to do to know half as much as all of you about these ... these.... monsters! :lookingitup: :findinglink:

 

[Bootsctr]

She has been removed since I posted the comment. I could not find any info from a search, where she has been located.

Another missing woman, although her age was 37 at the time she was reported missing. She also went missing very near a State Park.

Cari L. Farver Age at Report: 37 Missing From: Pottawattamie County, IA - Missing Since: November 16, 2012

IA IA - Cari Farver, 38, Councils Bluff, 16 Nov 2012 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community > Missing!! > Missing Persons Information and Support
IA IA - Cari Farver, 38, Councils Bluff, 16 Nov 2012

(No comments yet Thread started by raine1212 - 03/23/2013
WS Mini-Mod)

So tragically sad that all these women and girls are still missing, and how horrible to have to play "connect the dots" or rather connect the victims to a killer. :facepalm: They all certainly fall within the time frame that Klunder was a free man. Scary!

Question, if Kelsey L. Larson's remains were found and they were able to recover DNA in her case, would that DNA be tested before L&L's DNA since she was murdered prior to L&L? Just wondering if there the FBI works in order of oldest cases to newer, or is it if there is any DNA you send it to them and the cases are worked in no particular order?
Going to go watch the video Foxfire posted. That may answer my question. :banghead:

 

[alliemay]

I thought I read that they were partially decomposed not completely, can't find the article now but it gave me some hope. It also gave me hope that the soil in the area was possibly clay. Decomp takes longer in clay soil. But then we have to consider the heat of the summer which speeds up the process. I would think at that time of year though there might have been some shade from the trees. Hopefully. I think even though fingernails appear to grow after death that is the shrinkage of the body that makes it appear this way. I too hoped there might be something under the fingernails, like if one of the girls fought back and scratched, maybe Lyric. If the person who did this covered their bodies, it's possible that whatever evidence was under this covering could have been spared or sunk into the soil, highly unlikely, grasping at straws here I guess. What if one of the girls bite their attacker? Maybe there would be something inside the mouth cavity? As far as MK, just an opinion but since there was blood on the tailgate I wonder if he did not knock her out by hitting the back of her head against it. He can not harm another soul ever, that's the only reason I'm glad he is gone. He was selfish and self centered to leave this world and not provide information to where she was. Thanking the angles for finding her and saving the other girl.

 

[Foxfire]

So tragically sad that all these women and girls are still missing, and how horrible to have to play "connect the dots" or rather connect the victims to a killer. :facepalm: They all certainly fall within the time frame that Klunder was a free man. Scary!

Question, if Kelsey L. Larson's remains were found and they were able to recover DNA in her case, would that DNA be tested before L&L's DNA since she was murdered prior to L&L? Just wondering if there the FBI works in order of oldest cases to newer, or is it if there is any DNA you send it to them and the cases are worked in no particular order?
Going to go watch the video Foxfire posted. That may answer my question. :banghead:

Bootsctr, it is a very long video, but well worth the watch. The DNA info is near the end.. A few years ago there was a very long back log at the FBI Crime Lab due to budgetary concerns and the increased demand for their assistance. This back log has now been corrected;

http://amhersttimes.com/?p=17899

The FBI’s crime lab has reduced its backlog of forensic DNA cases by 87 percent over the course of two years, according to a report released Tuesday by the Justice Department’s inspector general.

The FBI lab in Quantico conducts DNA testing on biological evidence taken from crime scenes and items of evidence, including envelopes, clothing and drinking glasses. In an August 2010 audit report, the Justice Department watchdog said the lab had a large backlog of cases in both its nuclear DNA unit, which mostly analyzes biological fluids, such as blood and semen, and in its mitochondrial DNA unit, which examines evidence, such as naturally shed hairs, hair fragments, bones and teeth.

In his report, Horowitz found that the nuclear unit had effectively eliminated its backlog, reducing the number of its cases from 2,722 in March 2010 to 110 as of March 2012. The remaining cases are a “monthly work-in-progress,” the report concluded.
Read more…
____________________________

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-09-25/national/35495654_1_dna-cases-dna-unit-crime-lab

FBI crime lab cuts down backlog of cases, report says
By Sari Horwitz, September 25, 2012

The FBI’s crime lab has reduced its backlog of forensic DNA cases by 87 percent over the course of two years, according to a report released Tuesday by the Justice Department’s inspector general.

In his 38-page report, Inspector General Michael E. Horowitz attributed the “significant” reduction to an increase in staffing and more automation..
read more-

 

[Foxfire]

I thought I read that they were partially decomposed not completely, can't find the article now but it gave me some hope. It also gave me hope that the soil in the area was possibly clay. Decomp takes longer in clay soil. But then we have to consider the heat of the summer which speeds up the process. I would think at that time of year though there might have been some shade from the trees. Hopefully. I think even though fingernails appear to grow after death that is the shrinkage of the body that makes it appear this way. I too hoped there might be something under the fingernails, like if one of the girls fought back and scratched, maybe Lyric. If the person who did this covered their bodies, it's possible that whatever evidence was under this covering could have been spared or sunk into the soil, highly unlikely, grasping at straws here I guess. What if one of the girls bite their attacker? Maybe there would be something inside the mouth cavity? As far as MK, just an opinion but since there was blood on the tailgate I wonder if he did not knock her out by hitting the back of her head against it. He can not harm another soul ever, that's the only reason I'm glad he is gone. He was selfish and self centered to leave this world and not provide information to where she was. Thanking the angles for finding her and saving the other girl.

It is important to note that DNA is not only left at crime scenes, but also taken away. I remember that clothes and flip flops were recovered at L & L's remains location. A similarity between L & L's abduction and KS & DH's was that in both cases a purse was located near a body of water. Imo, this was an attempt at deflection by the perp/s, causing investigators to focus on accidental drowning/buying time, and for directional deflection, imo. The purse located at L & L's abduction site may have contained dna, since it was quickly recovered, imo..

MJK, may also have been a collector/souvenirs. His truck and other vehicles that he had access too(unless recently purchased) should be a treasure trove of forensics. Seems, the first order of business would have been for investigators to get MJK's dna entered into FBI CODIS. I have a hunch, there may have been a hit in other cases..

 

[Foxfire]

OT- 'It never ends': Another Tier3 RSO with a long violent history including past child abduction - http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213026&page=8&highlight=breaking+news

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/conten...-year-old-Charish/UvEhBQgQhU-ITAqFu8RbRQ.cspx

Amber Alert: 8-year-old Charish Perriwinkle found dead near church on Broward Road
__________________________

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- Police say 8-year-old Charish Perriwinkle has been found dead near a church along Broward Road.

The little girl was abducted from a Walmart on Lem Turner around 11 p.m. on Friday.

Rap Sheet of Abductor/Murderer - SMITH, DONALD J http://www.dc.state.fl.us/InmateReleases/detail.asp?Bookmark=14&From=list&SessionID=729559689

 

[Bootsctr]

I thought I read that they were partially decomposed not completely, can't find the article now but it gave me some hope. It also gave me hope that the soil in the area was possibly clay. Decomp takes longer in clay soil. But then we have to consider the heat of the summer which speeds up the process. I would think at that time of year though there might have been some shade from the trees. Hopefully. I think even though fingernails appear to grow after death that is the shrinkage of the body that makes it appear this way. I too hoped there might be something under the fingernails, like if one of the girls fought back and scratched, maybe Lyric. If the person who did this covered their bodies, it's possible that whatever evidence was under this covering could have been spared or sunk into the soil, highly unlikely, grasping at straws here I guess. What if one of the girls bite their attacker? Maybe there would be something inside the mouth cavity? As far as MK, just an opinion but since there was blood on the tailgate I wonder if he did not knock her out by hitting the back of her head against it. He can not harm another soul ever, that's the only reason I'm glad he is gone. He was selfish and self centered to leave this world and not provide information to where she was. Thanking the angles for finding her and saving the other girl.

Yes, the article you posted about decomp taking longer in clay soil gave me hope! I have hoped at least one of the girls bit him too! I agree he could have hit K's head on the tailgate - would certainly fit his MO with his bashing his first victim's head against the wall. I think that is why it is so important if he was driving a different vehicle in 2012 that it be found and searched with a fine tooth comb for traces of blood evidence. Amen to the angels finding K and for giving the other the strength to escape!

 

[Bootsctr]

Bootsctr, it is a very long video, but well worth the watch. The DNA info is near the end.. A few years ago there was a very long back log at the FBI Crime Lab due to budgetary concerns and the increased demand for their assistance. This back log has now been corrected;

http://amhersttimes.com/?p=17899

The FBI’s crime lab has reduced its backlog of forensic DNA cases by 87 percent over the course of two years, according to a report released Tuesday by the Justice Department’s inspector general.

The FBI lab in Quantico conducts DNA testing on biological evidence taken from crime scenes and items of evidence, including envelopes, clothing and drinking glasses. In an August 2010 audit report, the Justice Department watchdog said the lab had a large backlog of cases in both its nuclear DNA unit, which mostly analyzes biological fluids, such as blood and semen, and in its mitochondrial DNA unit, which examines evidence, such as naturally shed hairs, hair fragments, bones and teeth.

In his report, Horowitz found that the nuclear unit had effectively eliminated its backlog, reducing the number of its cases from 2,722 in March 2010 to 110 as of March 2012. The remaining cases are a “monthly work-in-progress,” the report concluded.
Read more…
____________________________

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-09-25/national/35495654_1_dna-cases-dna-unit-crime-lab

FBI crime lab cuts down backlog of cases, report says
By Sari Horwitz, September 25, 2012

The FBI’s crime lab has reduced its backlog of forensic DNA cases by 87 percent over the course of two years, according to a report released Tuesday by the Justice Department’s inspector general.

In his 38-page report, Inspector General Michael E. Horowitz attributed the “significant” reduction to an increase in staffing and more automation..
read more-

I am having trouble with the volume on this computer, so I'm going to try pulling it up later on my husband's laptop to see if I have better luck. I've already searched to see if that episode would be reshown any time soon in the future. Thank you for the information regarding the backlog of DNA testing. The links you gave are information gold mines IMO!

 

[Bootsctr]

OT- 'It never ends': Another RSO

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/conten...-year-old-Charish/UvEhBQgQhU-ITAqFu8RbRQ.cspx

Amber Alert: 8-year-old Charish Perriwinkle found dead near church on Broward Road
__________________________

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- Police say 8-year-old Charish Perriwinkle has been found dead near a church along Broward Road.

The little girl was abducted from a Walmart on Lem Turner around 11 p.m. on Friday.

Glad they caught him albeit too late for little Charish! A painter by trade who lived with his mother. Drove a white dodge. :banghead: :stormingmad:

 

[georger]

It is important to note that DNA is not only left at crime scenes, but also taken away. I remember that clothes and flip flops were recovered at L & L's remains location. A similarity between L & L's abduction and KS & DH's was that in both cases a purse was located near a body of water. Imo, this was an attempt at deflection by the perp/s, causing investigators to focus on accidental drowning/buying time, and for directional deflection, imo. The purse located at L & L's abduction site may have contained dna, since it was quickly recovered, imo..

MJK, may also have been a collector/souvenirs. His truck and other vehicles that he had access too(unless recently purchased) should be a treasure trove of forensics. Seems, the first order of business would have been for investigators to get MJK's dna entered into FBI CODIS. I have a hunch, there may have been a hit in other cases..

That is what I am hoping for, that some type of evidence of the Evansdale
girls is found in Klunder's things? Evidence left in Klunder's vehicle etc.
That would nail the case shut.

I am very skeptical any useful evidence was found at 7 Bridges. We know
absolutely nothing about what was found at 7 Bridges, the state of
decomposition etc. LE has provided no information to work with.

The Register article is incredibly superficial. Says nothing except evidence
is now going to be submitted to the FBI lab. Evidently, before Klunder there was
nothing to submit! No suspects. No good forensic evidence which needed analysis
for its own value. That to me is remarkably pessimistic in terms of evidence collected
at 7-Bridges or elsewhere. John Perp evidently didn't leave a note or his shoes or his
hammer at 7 Bridges, or at Evansdale either. The girl's shoes may have picked up some
fibre or something from the vehicle they were transported in ?
:truce:

 

[georger]

I have hoped at least one of the girls bit him too! [/quote]

The chemicals generated in the decomposition process quite often kill
any dna of that sort. That kind of evidence is best collected immediately
after the crime, say at the hospital or in the morgue.

The very best evidence that could be found is any hair fibre or anything
else from the Evansdale girls, found away from the scene in Klunder's things
at Dayton. That would establish a relationship AND CLOSE THIS CASE!

Evidently the Iowa Crime Lab hasn't found anything obvious of that nature,
since they are now having to pass things on to the FBI Lab ?

I don't expect dna to even play a role in these cases -

 

[dotr]

Has this guy ever been spotted in town?

http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=25820

"
Traits and Habits:

Carroll likes to stay in campgrounds.
He is a skilled trim finisher, specializing in new construction.
He has been married five times.
He has six children.
He has been convicted twice for sexually abusing children (1983 and 1993).
He is a registered sex offender.

Last Seen:

Sullivan , IL

Other Possible Locations:

Springfield , MO
Carroll is believed to be hiding out in homeless camps in the wilderness of Springfield, Mo.

Last Known Locations:

Sullivan , IL

Prior Convictions:

Sexual Abuse"

 

[threecrazykids]

http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/Lett...-About-Michael-Klunders-Parole-212608421.html

Another article on Klunder

 

[SapphireSteel]

It's not Klunder.

We would know by now :cow: