IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, found deceased, Evansdale, 13 Jul 2012 #38

[zecats]

Also, this may be completely insignificant, but the rural coops for Evansdale and Brooklyn are both members of Touchstone Energy Cooperatives.

As is Carroll White REMC. Location Delphi Indiana.

 

[TL4S]

As is Carroll White REMC. Location Delphi Indiana.

I was wondering that very thing!

 

[dotr]

Assuming Brooklyn and Evansdale are the same predator, right now I am thinking he is a lot like my dad used to be in the sense that he gets around Iowa, not just for work, but for recreation as well. I remember years and years worth of weekends with my dad where we would be on the road for whatever reason. And my dad is one of those guys who likes to wander, is a fearless explorer who didn't think twice about driving up someone's private road or taking the car along nothing more than a dirt path, and really had a knack for finding those out of the way towns or picturesque spots in the country. It didn't hurt that dad is a social extrovert and can strike up a conversation with anyone. My point is, years and years of this and you will get to know places.

rbbm.
The perp also could have pulled a ( former Col. ) Russell Williams trick..
RW was new to the neighbourhood where he was targeting women and girls for all manner of nastiness for which he was the unlikely culprit.
He uncharacteristically began a conversation with his hunting/fishing prone neighbour to inquire about the location of his special hunting spot.

That same neighbour was suspected of being the killer, and ultimately one of the women's bodies was found right in the area that RW's neighbour had generously shared with RW.
Fwiw..
'Cocky' colonel tried to frame me: neighbour
'Cocky' colonel tried to frame me: neighbour
Town treated man with suspicion
"TWEED, Ont. — It was grouse hunting season, mid-fall, when Larry Jones had a conversation that has suddenly, after all that has happened in this eastern Ontario town, taken on more significance.

Jones, a perpetually active 65-year-old, was dressed in camouflage hunting gear and loading his shotgun into his pickup when his normally solitary next-door neighbour walked over and started to chat."

 

[TL4S]

Assuming Brooklyn and Evansdale are the same predator, right now I am thinking he is a lot like my dad used to be in the sense that he gets around Iowa, not just for work, but for recreation as well. I remember years and years worth of weekends with my dad where we would be on the road for whatever reason. And my dad is one of those guys who likes to wander, is a fearless explorer who didn't think twice about driving up someone's private road or taking the car along nothing more than a dirt path, and really had a knack for finding those out of the way towns or picturesque spots in the country. It didn't hurt that dad is a social extrovert and can strike up a conversation with anyone. My point is, years and years of this and you will get to know places.

And hunters drive all over getting permission for land and scouting locations. They can know large areas of land well!

 

[otto]

My point is neither more nor less than that the pattern I mentioned suggests a possible connection between the crimes mentioned. I think references to historical miscellany is a more common thing than references to numerology in patterns of killers. That said, simple numerical patterns in killings can be a way for the murderer to emphasize a connection that exists to something else. As for 2-13-17 being 7-13-12 backwards, that could well be something intentional and reflective of some other connection (that I haven't found). References to historical stuff, on the other hand, gives opportunity to reference death (which serial killers tend to like, e.g., by way of justifying killing), and it may even give a killer superficial airs of sacredness since most people who reference the dead do so more from memorialization than for perverse reasons. It is a good thing to learn how to avoid pointless death, to seek justice, and to consider what the desires of the dead would be (even those who believe in ghosts will probably admit that not being alive makes one more powerless), and serial killers may want to blend in with those who give the dead such reverence as is just. Pure numerical references, on the other hand, lead to what? Mathematics? Mathematics is not very haunting, presumably because intuitively it in itself possesses a moral neutrality that makes it not something that in itself could encourage people to kill. That forwards is like backwards is not totally a morally neutral idea, though--that is a pattern one might see for its own sake (even with words--I remember back in the day some people thought you could find all sorts of weird hellish things by playing records backwards on the turntable).

Crazy is not so bad for finding serial killers. Crazy people know that when they are extra crazy (in the typical terrifying hellish way) that they are probably on wrong track or are not going about things as well as they could, which helps them refine their understanding. It's a sense those who are never crazy may lack. In looking for "crazy" patterns, I find it helps to be in a frame of mind that is not as careful about typical common sense distinctions as usual, and so after I feel I may have found something, I find it very useful to step back away from blurry-land for a while to make sure I got everything exactly right about names, dates, etc. Often I'll notice I was off about something, which makes for gloom, then, no, I'll (often) see I wasn't as off as I thought because I'm off about something else that cancels or I am neglecting to account for something else, etc. In a way the craziest thing you can do is to be too crazy about not becoming crazy.

Thanks! Just re-reading your comment, and your perspective of reflecting on ideas is really helpful and a good idea. For example, I've been looking at abductions like this for a long time. I followed the Morgan Harrington case closely and just had a gut feeling when Hannah Graham disappeared that there was a connection. We didn't know for sure until long after Hannah was murdered, but it was the same predator. There's something about Brooklyn and Evansdale that grabbed my attention as potentially being the same predator, but it is good to step away, take the perspective that they are not connected, and revisit the reasons why there would be no connection, as well as why there may be a connection.

Cheers

 

[TL4S]

When I saw otto's maps yesterday, I thought proximity alone warranted a hard look at connections.

 

[ellieuma]

Since I am inclined to believe that there is a possible connection between Lyric and Elizabeth, and Mollie, this is a map I put together showing a 25 mile radius with an additional 20 mile distance associated with abduction and evidence.

Regarding the dates, Lyric and Elizabeth were abducted on Friday the 13th, 2012. Mollie was abducted on 18-07-18. That's also a nice number if someone is looking for an interesting date to abduct someone.

I am happy to assure everyone that I have been wrong more than once.

Speaking of interesting connections b/w these cases, have any other people posted on the palindrome (mirror/reverse) to MT’s Abduction Date and it’s relationship with a missing person case out of Atlanta? (I haven’t read where anyone has posted about this. I apologize if I am repeating something that has already been posted)

The mirror reversal of MT’s date of abduction is 81817–Aug 18, 2017. There was a missing person case w/ circumstances nearly identical to MT’s, that occurred on that date in the Druid Hills neighborhood of Atlanta. It’s the case of Jenna Van Gelderen & it is eerily similar to MT’s.

Missing DeKalb County woman disappeared while housesitting

 

[margarita25]

Speaking of interesting connections b/w these cases, have any other people posted on the palindrome (mirror/reverse) to MT’s Abduction Date and it’s relationship with a missing person case out of Atlanta? (I haven’t read where anyone has posted about this. I apologize if I am repeating something that has already been posted)

The mirror reversal of MT’s date of abduction is 81817–Aug 18, 2017. There was a missing person case w/ circumstances nearly identical to MT’s, that occurred on that date in the Druid Hills neighborhood of Atlanta. It’s the case of Jenna Van Gelderen & it is eerily similar to MT’s.

Missing DeKalb County woman disappeared while housesitting

Does Jenna have a thread?

ETA:

GA - GA - Jenna Van Gelderen, 25, Atlanta, 18 Aug 2017 #4

 

[ellieuma]

Speaking of interesting connections b/w these cases, have any other people posted on the palindrome (mirror/reverse) to MT’s Abduction Date and it’s relationship with a missing person case out of Atlanta? (I haven’t read where anyone has posted about this. I apologize if I am repeating something that has already been posted)

The mirror reversal of MT’s date of abduction is 81817–Aug 18, 2017. There was a missing person case w/ circumstances nearly identical to MT’s, that occurred on that date in the Druid Hills neighborhood of Atlanta. It’s the case of Jenna Van Gelderen & it is eerily similar to MT’s.

Missing DeKalb County woman disappeared while housesitting

I posted this here rather than on MT’s thread b/c this is the first forum I read about the palindrome relationship between the Indiana and Waterloo, IA cases. Also, a topic of discussion in here is a comparison of MT’s case to the Indiana and other Iowa case. The topic of the reverse dates predominantly happened on this forum so I am really asking if other Sleuthers think that it is a coincidence that all 4 cases fit in neatly with the palindrome theory?

 

[ellieuma]

Does Jenna have a thread?

ETA:

GA - GA - Jenna Van Gelderen, 25, Atlanta, 18 Aug 2017 #4

Yes, Jenna has a thread on here. I haven’t figured out how to post a link to it on here.

 

[dotr]

I posted this here rather than on MT’s thread b/c this is the first forum I read about the palindrome relationship between the Indiana and Waterloo, IA cases. Also, a topic of discussion in here is a comparison of MT’s case to the Indiana and other Iowa case. The topic of the reverse dates predominantly happened on this forum so I am really asking if other Sleuthers think that it is a coincidence that all 4 cases fit in neatly with the palindrome theory?

Rbbm.
If there is something to the "palindrome theory", it would be interesting if the perp was inspired by this 2006 novel.
The Night Gardener - Wikipedia
"Set in the 1980s, a trio of murders are linked to a single suspect. All three victims have palindromic first names and are found shot through the head in community gardens. The media dubs the crimes the "palindrome murders". T.C. Cook was the lead investigator at the time and two young officers, Gus Ramone and Doc Holiday, were with him at the third crime scene,. Then, 20 years later Cook is retired and Holiday has left the police. Ramone is a veteran homicide detective and becomes involved in a case which has all the hallmarks of a palindrome murder. Also realising the similarities, the others are again drawn into the investigation.[1]

Explanation of the novel's title
The perpetrator of the palindrome murders was given the nickname The Night Gardener by detectives."

 

[jkloc420]

I always felt this was done by someone who taught kids

 

[ellieuma]

[

Rbbm.
If there is something to the "palindrome theory", it would be interesting if the perp was inspired by this 2006 novel.
The Night Gardener - Wikipedia
"Set in the 1980s, a trio of murders are linked to a single suspect. All three victims have palindromic first names and are found shot through the head in community gardens. The media dubs the crimes the "palindrome murders". T.C. Cook was the lead investigator at the time and two young officers, Gus Ramone and Doc Holiday, were with him at the third crime scene,. Then, 20 years later Cook is retired and Holiday has left the police. Ramone is a veteran homicide detective and becomes involved in a case which has all the hallmarks of a palindrome murder. Also realising the similarities, the others are again drawn into the investigation.[1]

Explanation of the novel's title
The perpetrator of the palindrome murders was given the nickname The Night Gardener by detectives."

At this point, anything is possible. I hope that the truth comes to light one day soon.

 

[jkloc420]

They should of collected the trash in the park the day they went missing and tried to run dna

 

[Considering]

They should of collected the trash in the park the day they went missing and tried to run dna

Maybe they did collect the trash in the park from the afternoon they went missing - I specifically recall them collecting a disposable cup at the lake. I don't think LE has ever said if they did or didn't, but even if they did, I don't see how they could do dna testing on all of it. It would be a tremendous undertaking, the cost of dna testing would be prohibitive and what would it prove?

 

[jkloc420]

Maybe they did collect the trash in the park from the afternoon they went missing - I specifically recall them collecting a disposable cup at the lake. I don't think LE has ever said if they did or didn't, but even if they did, I don't see how they could do dna testing on all of it. It would be a tremendous undertaking, the cost of dna testing would be prohibitive and what would it prove?

It would give them a suspect list if they got any hits.

 

[jkloc420]

Maybe they did collect the trash in the park from the afternoon they went missing - I specifically recall them collecting a disposable cup at the lake. I don't think LE has ever said if they did or didn't, but even if they did, I don't see how they could do dna testing on all of it. It would be a tremendous undertaking, the cost of dna testing would be prohibitive and what would it prove?

money vs cold case, time consuming getting dna evidence or cold case.

 

[Considering]

Having multiple dna profiles from trash found at Meyers Lake would not be proof of who committed the abductions and murders of Lyric and Lizzy. There could be hundreds of pieces of trash from that area and no one would know exactly when it was left there. If there was something specific found near the girls' bicycles or something like a condom or duct tape found nearby, I would think that it absolutely would and should be tested for possible dna, but I cannot see testing every piece of random trash found in a park that includes a lake and encompasses about 27 acres. It's a nice idea but I don't think it's at all feasible. JMO

 

[thecatmeows]

They won't test for DNA unless they have a suspect to compare it against, usually, otherwise that DNA has no purpose. It's hard to prove that any single piece of trash at a park would be linked to the abductor - even a condom, because two teens could be fooling around - especially in such a remote area. It doesn't mean they were involved in the abduction. It's easier when the abduction takes place inside a house, because there aren't as many people coming in and out of a house as a park. I doubt any trash found at the park would provide concrete evidence as belonging to the abductor(s), unless said trash was found right next to the bikes.

 

[otto]

Having multiple dna profiles from trash found at Meyers Lake would not be proof of who committed the abductions and murders of Lyric and Lizzy. There could be hundreds of pieces of trash from that area and no one would know exactly when it was left there. If there was something specific found near the girls' bicycles or something like a condom or duct tape found nearby, I would think that it absolutely would and should be tested for possible dna, but I cannot see testing every piece of random trash found in a park that includes a lake and encompasses about 27 acres. It's a nice idea but I don't think it's at all feasible. JMO

I don't think that Lizzie and Lyric's abductor spent any time at Meyer's Lake. I think it's quite possible that the person who abducted Lyric and Lizzie heard about the area from previous generations, and lured the girls to that location from the parking lot near their grandmother's house.

I don't think there's anything to gain from testing garbage at Meyer's Lake for DNA. I think that their murderer is just getting started with two little girls, and that he will not be caught until there is another victim.