Found Deceased IA - Mollie Tibbetts, 20, Poweshiek County, 19 Jul 2018 *Arrest* #44

[MsBetsy]

How would his family know what CR does when he is alone? They wouldn't, imo.

No, but they certainly would be aware of a history of blackouts. If Mollies threat to call the police was enough to put one in motion, than I would assume the people he spends the most time with have witnessed his block outs. If they are out of his control, how would he be able to make sure they only occur when he is alone? I don't buy it. Imo

 

[Al Hoffman]

We know the start and end location of the incident, and the time range in terms of start and finish times of incident. According to the suspect, when she arrived at the end location she had a head injury (this can be verified with blood evidence in the trunk).

What we know:

• incident timeline: 7:45PM t0 8:28PM
• incident locations: 1900 blk 385 ave, and just off Highway 21 on 460th Ave
• 69% abduction murder victims are deceased in less than 1 hour
• incident time for Mollie: 43 minutes
• travel time between locations: 15-18 minutes
• suspect's time to assault Mollie excluding travel time: 25 minutes

Given the information that we know, the timeline does not allow for a third location, and indeed we know that police are not searching a third location. We do know that the suspect's home was searched, but that does not mean that investigators believe that Mollie was at the dairy farm. According to the information that has been released by police, there are two locations: 385 Ave, and 460 Ave.

Why, without any related facts from police, would we introduce a third location to the timeline where Mollie allegedly received sharp object injuries?

According to the suspect the only injury Mollie suffered at the time he arrived just off Highway 21 on 460th Ave is a head injury. Granted he is most likely lying in much of his statement, but blood evidence should easily identify Mollie's injuries when she was in the trunk.

He may have memory failure between abduction and body location, but according to the suspect, she had one injury at the time his memory recovered. She was found with multiple sharp object injuries, so those must have occurred after his memory recovered.

Otto, I must agree to disagree with you, as I see a flaw in your posit, and your always impeccable reasoning and logic. (I am not being snarky, as I really do respect your posts!)

The arrest warrant affidavit only gives us a time range for the crime of Homicide. While the affidavit lists a litany of actions, nowhere does it say that EVERYTHING enumerated in the warrant occurred before 20:28 on the day in question. Presumably, maybe per the FitBit data, MT is believed by LE to have been deceased by this upper time limit of 20:28. Per your assement, I agree that the victim died within an hour of her "initial" encounter with CR, as the statistics and circumstance support this observation.

The rest of the timeline for the remainder of the crime is, therefore, open ended, until further LE confirmation. CR COULD have gone to multiple other locations, on multiple days, before going to the final dump site. He could have gone to the now infamous closed hog finishing facility to abuse and finish off his victim, or just to look in the trunk to see what he did. This COULD be the reason for a digital footprint at this site, or maybe he just drove by it. There is no way to tell for certain at this time. The travel time could be MUCH longer than 15 to 18 minutes. Arguments about the "risk" of happenstance LE intervention are meaningless, as this DID NOT HAPPEN. Fortune favors the bold.

The way CR describes the scene in the trunk, in the affidavit, sounds like a tableau of a completely incapacitated or already deceased victim. I agree that he describes a bloody head wound, which because of the bleeding indicates that she lived for a time before death, after the initial assault. Dead bodies don't actively bleed.

I think that CR's claim of "blocking out" his memories is a way of communicating to LE that he does not want to talk about the worst of what he did, for any number of reasons. For me, this indicates the opposite of your posit, in that the worst was done to the victim before the end of the "block out". The "multiple sharp force" injuries may have been delivered pre- and post-mortem. A possible first killing wound delivered at the time of the assault on 385th, other multiple wounds delivered post-mortem after CR realized he had escalated too quickly, and killed his victim, this done in a burst of anger and frustration, possibly st a secondary crime scene like the "hog farm". Alternatively, ALL multiple stab wounds could have been administered to the victim at the 385th site, or at a secondary crime scene.

Also, the only apparent cause of death that could be definitively determined after 33 days of decomp in the elements could be based on multiple cuts to bone, giving a presumptive preliminary finding of multiple sharp force trauma to be the primary cause of death, with other causes lost to decomp, or yet to be determined by further analysis. It is possible that the remains have not yet been interred, pending further forensic study (think of the way they lay out a cleaned skeleton for analysis in the TV show "Bones").

While I find your timeline interesting, I think that it is too early to make such detailed conclusions.

Sorry, with the most of respect for your conclusions.

 

[TL4S]

Right, he didn't say something like, "there was blood all over" he specifically said her head. Guess he didn't think his explanation through to well. It makes his story a little less believable. It actually works against him.

I know it makes more sense for him to have killed her in the cornfield because of the blood mess in the trunk. That's logical. Maybe it fits the standard abduction/murder scenario. I don't know. But it's still speculation.

I'm not arguing against the likelihood that CR killed MT in or around that cornfield. It's the rational conclusion. But I'm also seeing a lot of unknowns:

a) Just because he only said he noticed blood on the side of her head doesn't mean he didn't notice it elsewhere (or that part was omitted from the affidavit for some reason). Maybe he just looked there first because he had the earbud in his hand. We don't know.

Again I ask, why, if his blocked memories story is a lie (and he killed her at the cornfield), did he not leave out the parts before he killed her? Unless he did confess to the murder itself, but then it should have been part of the affidavit.

b) As other people have suggested, isn't it also possible the multiple sharp force trauma wounds were exclusively to her head?

c) Do we know for a fact he drove the Malibu right away the next day? Is it possible the Nissan was accessible while the Malibu was getting cleaned? We still don't even know for certain who owns either of those vehicles.

d) If he planned this so far in advanced that he knew MT's running routes, and targeted her that particular night, as has been suggested, than what was stopping him from putting a plastic tarp or tub in the trunk of his car.

These are all MOO, JMO, IMO. I'm not comfortable settling on a theory when there are too many questions in my mind.

 

[SteveP]

And all over his clothes and body! Don't those type of wounds cause the most blood?

We spent considerable time many threads ago, after the 5 points of interest were disclosed, discussing the possibility that he might would have used the TSA Truckstop to shower after the murder, and many of us, myself included, thought it was highly unlikely that he would venture into a public place to do that and risk being seen by several people, but I thought then, and still do now, that he would be far more likely to just take the back road home, which, it seems, he did. Why do we now doubt that he would risk driving around with blood on his clothes and body. Wherever he did it, she still bled, and probably profusely. If he went straight home, the risk of being seen by someone who would report him was considerably lower. JMO

 

[otto]

Otto, I must agree to disagree with you, as I see a flaw in your posit, and your always impeccable reasoning and logic. (I am not being snarky, as I really do respect your posts!)

The arrest warrant affidavit only gives us a time range for the crime of Homicide. While the affidavit lists a litany of actions, nowhere does it say that EVERYTHING enumerated in the warrant occurred before 20:28 on the day in question. Presumably, maybe per the FitBit data, MT is believed by LE to have been deceased by this upper time limit of 20:28. Per your assement, I agree that the victim died within an hour of her "initial" encounter with CR, as the statistics and circumstance support this observation.

The rest of the timeline for the remainder of the crime is, therefore, open ended, until further LE confirmation. CR COULD have gone to multiple other locations, on multiple days, before going to the final dump site. He could have gone to the now infamous closed hog finishing facility to abuse and finish off his victim, or just to look in the trunk to see what he did. This COULD be the reason for a digital footprint at this site, or maybe he just drove by it. There is no way to tell for certain at this time. The travel time could be MUCH longer than 15 to 18 minutes. Arguments about the "risk" of happenstance LE intervention are meaningless, as this DID NOT HAPPEN. Fortune favors the bold.

The way CR describes the scene in the trunk, in the affidavit, sounds like a tableau of a completely incapacitated or already deceased victim. I agree that he describes a bloody head wound, which because of the bleeding indicates that she lived for a time before death, after the initial assault. Dead bodies don't actively bleed.

I think that CR's claim of "blocking out" his memories is a way of communicating to LE that he does not want to talk about the worst of what he did, for any number of reasons. For me, this indicates the opposite of your posit, in that the worst was done to the victim before the end of the "block out". The "multiple sharp force" injuries may have been delivered pre- and post-mortem. A possible first killing wound delivered at the time of the assault on 385th, other multiple wounds delivered post-mortem after CR realized he had escalated too quickly, and killed his victim, this done in a burst of anger and frustration, possibly st a secondary crime scene like the "hog farm". Alternatively, ALL multiple stab wounds could have been administered to the victim at the 385th site, or at a secondary crime scene.

Also, the only apparent cause of death that could be definitively determined after 33 days of decomp in the elements could be based on multiple cuts to bone, giving a presumptive preliminary finding of multiple sharp force trauma to be the primary cause of death, with other causes lost to decomp, or yet to be determined by further analysis. It is possible that the remains have not yet been interred, pending further forensic study (think of the way they lay out a cleaned skeleton for analysis in the TV show "Bones").

While I find your timeline interesting, I think that it is too early to make such detailed conclusions.

Sorry, with the most of respect for your conclusions.

That's a very long comment to respond to!

All sorts of maps have been posted where the suspect allegedly drove West, then South, then East to get to the cornfield. There has been no response to questions of why he would do that. Looking at the direct route, it takes 18 minutes from abduction to body. Since the suspect planned the abduction location, it's very likely that he thought it through enough to select a body location as well.

Time range of incident per search warrant is 7:45-8:28. I'm going to run with that until I read otherwise.

There's no reason to think that Mollie was dead in the trunk of the car simply because she had blood on the side of her head.

Mollie Tibbetts died from "multiple sharp force injuries." If there was any ambiguity, that would be "undetermined". The 33 days did not interfere with the finding.

 

[MsBetsy]

The outcome of CR's actions are an indication he had something influencing his decisions. An addiction of any kind messes with brain wiring other than alcohol or drugs. There is addiction, gambling addiction, video game addiction (which the Sandy Hook killer engaged in.)

There is something which influenced CR's brain to decide to commit extreme violence against a woman. If you want to believe CR is just a normal guy, that's fine. I don't share your opinion. JMO

It may very well have just been his internal wiring that influenced his thinking and behavior. There is no need for an addiction to do what Rivera did. One does not need anything to influence ones brain if the brain is already " abnormal" in the first place. I'm not sure if there is anyone who thinks he is a "normal" guy. Imo

 

[SteveP]

That's a very long comment to respond to!

All sorts of maps have been posted where the suspect allegedly drove West, then South, then East to get to the cornfield. There has been no response to questions of why he would do that. Looking at the direct route, it takes 18 minutes from abduction to body. Since the suspect planned the abduction location, it's very likely that he thought it through enough to select a body location as well.

Time range of incident per search warrant is 7:45-8:28. I'm going to run with that until I read otherwise.

There's no reason to think that Mollie was dead in the trunk of the car simply because she had blood on the side of her head.

Mollie Tibbetts died from "multiple sharp force injuries." If there was any ambiguity, that would be "undetermined". The 33 days did not interfere with the finding.

BBM...Respectfully, that is speculation and not established fact. I still believe the cornfield was selected 'on the fly', and even if he planned to abduct Mollie specifically that night, I think it was all done with minimal planning, at most. Once he saw her at point A on the road that she was abducted from, he didn't have to be a rocket scientist to deduce that she would be coming by point B, unless she stopped running or turned around and did a 180. I know many here think everything he did was carefully planned out, but that has not been established, and I, for one, don't believe it was. JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

Otto, I must agree to disagree with you, as I see a flaw in your posit, and your always impeccable reasoning and logic. (I am not being snarky, as I really do respect your posts!)

The arrest warrant affidavit only gives us a time range for the crime of Homicide. While the affidavit lists a litany of actions, nowhere does it say that EVERYTHING enumerated in the warrant occurred before 20:28 on the day in question. Presumably, maybe per the FitBit data, MT is believed by LE to have been deceased by this upper time limit of 20:28. Per your assement, I agree that the victim died within an hour of her "initial" encounter with CR, as the statistics and circumstance support this observation.

The rest of the timeline for the remainder of the crime is, therefore, open ended, until further LE confirmation. CR COULD have gone to multiple other locations, on multiple days, before going to the final dump site. He could have gone to the now infamous closed hog finishing facility to abuse and finish off his victim, or just to look in the trunk to see what he did. This COULD be the reason for a digital footprint at this site, or maybe he just drove by it. There is no way to tell for certain at this time. The travel time could be MUCH longer than 15 to 18 minutes. Arguments about the "risk" of happenstance LE intervention are meaningless, as this DID NOT HAPPEN. Fortune favors the bold.

The way CR describes the scene in the trunk, in the affidavit, sounds like a tableau of a completely incapacitated or already deceased victim. I agree that he describes a bloody head wound, which because of the bleeding indicates that she lived for a time before death, after the initial assault. Dead bodies don't actively bleed.

I think that CR's claim of "blocking out" his memories is a way of communicating to LE that he does not want to talk about the worst of what he did, for any number of reasons. For me, this indicates the opposite of your posit, in that the worst was done to the victim before the end of the "block out". The "multiple sharp force" injuries may have been delivered pre- and post-mortem. A possible first killing wound delivered at the time of the assault on 385th, other multiple wounds delivered post-mortem after CR realized he had escalated too quickly, and killed his victim, this done in a burst of anger and frustration, possibly st a secondary crime scene like the "hog farm". Alternatively, ALL multiple stab wounds could have been administered to the victim at the 385th site, or at a secondary crime scene.

Also, the only apparent cause of death that could be definitively determined after 33 days of decomp in the elements could be based on multiple cuts to bone, giving a presumptive preliminary finding of multiple sharp force trauma to be the primary cause of death, with other causes lost to decomp, or yet to be determined by further analysis. It is possible that the remains have not yet been interred, pending further forensic study (think of the way they lay out a cleaned skeleton for analysis in the TV show "Bones").

While I find your timeline interesting, I think that it is too early to make such detailed conclusions.

Sorry, with the most of respect for your conclusions.

Or... maybe he meant the worst of the injuries occurred AFTER he came out of the blockout. His supposed block out. Jmo

 

[JenniD]

I am still hung up on the ending time of 8:28. Where does that exact time come from
If it is Fitbit data does it have to be that MT heart quit beating at that time -or could it be that the Fitbit was not functioning due to it being removed or being out of range of the phone to sync. I know nothing about Fitbits so welcome an explanation

 

[MsBetsy]

We spent considerable time many threads ago, after the 5 points of interest were disclosed, discussing the possibility that he might would have used the TSA Truckstop to shower after the murder, and many of us, myself included, thought it was highly unlikely that he would venture into a public place to do that and risk being seen by several people, but I thought then, and still do now, that he would be far more likely to just take the back road home, which, it seems, he did. Why do we now doubt that he would risk driving around with blood on his clothes and body. Wherever he did it, she still bled, and probably profusely. If he went straight home, the risk of being seen by someone who would report him was considerably lower. JMO

I have always doubted that he drove around with blood all over his clothes and body. And yes, I'm sure she bled profusely with those kind of injuries. I just think most of the bleeding occurred in the cornfield or in the dirt road, as opposed to the trunk. I don't see why he could not have had a change of clothes in his car and water and a towel to clean the blood off. If he planned this crime in advance, then I'm sure he would have been prepared. Imo.

 

[MsBetsy]

BBM...Respectfully, that is speculation and not established fact. I still believe the cornfield was selected 'on the fly', and even if he planned to abduct Mollie specifically that night, I think it was all done with minimal planning, at most. Once he saw her at point A on the road that she was abducted from, he didn't have to be a rocket scientist to deduce that she would be coming by point B, unless she stopped running or turned around and did a 180. I know many here think everything he did was carefully planned out, but that has not been established, and I, for one, don't believe it was. JMO

He did not have to plan in advance where to abduct her, imo, he may have made his decision while he was driving around, and just waited until the right moment, when she was the most isolated. That doesn't require careful planning at all, imo. especially if he was already familiar with her jogging route, which I believe he was since he admitted seeing her jog before. Imo

 

[Jeng1810]

We spent considerable time many threads ago, after the 5 points of interest were disclosed, discussing the possibility that he might would have used the TSA Truckstop to shower after the murder, and many of us, myself included, thought it was highly unlikely that he would venture into a public place to do that and risk being seen by several people, but I thought then, and still do now, that he would be far more likely to just take the back road home, which, it seems, he did. Why do we now doubt that he would risk driving around with blood on his clothes and body. Wherever he did it, she still bled, and probably profusely. If he went straight home, the risk of being seen by someone who would report him was considerably lower. JMO

I have to believe the truck stop had some significance to LE ot they would have not listed it as a point of interest. I think he was there before anything happened. They could have been looking at just where the particular vehicle had been imo.

 

[MsBetsy]

I am still hung up on the ending time of 8:28. Where does that exact time come from
If it is Fitbit data does it have to be that MT heart quit beating at that time -or could it be that the Fitbit was not functioning due to it being removed or being out of range of the phone to sync. I know nothing about Fitbits so welcome an explanation

I don't think it was ever clarified as to what the 8: 28 time is in reference to. Some think it must be the fit bit info because of the specific time, 8:28 as opposed to 8:30. Or at least the cell phone data. It could be either of the things you mentioned. I don't think anyone knows for sure. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

I have to believe the truck stop had some significance to LE ot they would have not listed it as a point of interest. I think he was there before anything happened. They could have been looking at just where the particular vehicle had been imo.

Or they may have been looking for witnesses who may have seen something. I don't think they had identified the vehicle yet when they listed it as an area of interest. Jmo

 

[Jeng1810]

Or they may have been looking for witnesses who may have seen something. I don't think they had identified the vehicle yet when they listed it as an area of interest. Jmo

I think all 5 points were significant in some ways like they had data or video for each of them. Otherwise why not just pick the other truck stop just down the highway as well? Interesting how they threw out those 5 points and days later they have an arrest. They have video and phone data that correlated to all those points. Moo

 

[Seattle1]

When CR chose this story about blocking his memories, than I wonder why he didn't just say he came out of his blackout and found her laying in the cornfield at his feet, so he covered her with corn leaves. Why open himself up to being aware of everything that took place in the cornfield if he had murdered her there? It doesn't make sense to me. JMO

CR was described by LE as cooperative and went willingly without a lawyer to police station for questioning. Like most sociopaths, he thought he was smarter than LE but selectively resorted to the "black/block-out" when the questions became too difficult. CR also controlled the questioning by doing so. MOO

 

[MyBelle]

It may very well have just been his internal wiring that influenced his thinking and behavior. There is no need for an addiction to do what Rivera did. One does not need anything to influence ones brain if the brain is already " abnormal" in the first place. I'm not sure if there is anyone who thinks he is a "normal" guy. Imo

CR's "internal wiring" certainly didn't reflect in his behavior observed by his friends, family and employer prior to Mollie's murder. I'm fairly confident my husband, brothers and adult sons' brains are normal as is mine. JMO

 

[otto]

BBM...Respectfully, that is speculation and not established fact. I still believe the cornfield was selected 'on the fly', and even if he planned to abduct Mollie specifically that night, I think it was all done with minimal planning, at most. Once he saw her at point A on the road that she was abducted from, he didn't have to be a rocket scientist to deduce that she would be coming by point B, unless she stopped running or turned around and did a 180. I know many here think everything he did was carefully planned out, but that has not been established, and I, for one, don't believe it was. JMO

Rivera had previously seen Mollie jogging and he was circling the block at Boundary and Middle Str. Mollie was seen running at that location, and then both the car and Mollie vanished. Was the suspect circling the block before or after Mollie arrived? Gut feeling is before, but I haven't listened closely enough to the press release to pull that detail out of the rest of the information. It would be odd that the suspect circled around after Mollie jogged at that location.

Was it mere coincidence that the suspect was circling on Mollie's jogging route? If not, then he knew her route, knew that she ran along 385 Ave, and deliberately targeted her at that location. Should we believe that a man who plans to abduct a woman only thinks it through to the act of abduction, or does he have a plan that includes exactly what he is going to do with that woman after he has abducted her? My guess is that any man who plans to abduct a woman has fantasized every details of what he plans to do after the abduction, including the place where it will happen.

A completely random abduction/murder that has no forethought must be along the lines of a man thinking he'll go to the store to buy milk, along the way he sees a woman, and he spontaneously decides to abduct and murder. I don't see a decision to abduct and murder a stranger as coming out of thin air like that, and I certainly don't believe Rivera's claim that Mollie made him do it.

 

[Seattle1]

Some people are just not smilers. Look at Bill Belichick??? The guy never smiles.

But he does practice scowling ... there's some emotion in that face!

 

[otto]

I am still hung up on the ending time of 8:28. Where does that exact time come from
If it is Fitbit data does it have to be that MT heart quit beating at that time -or could it be that the Fitbit was not functioning due to it being removed or being out of range of the phone to sync. I know nothing about Fitbits so welcome an explanation

All we know is that the end-range time of the incident according to the arrest warrant is 8:28PM. How they arrived at that exact time is probably based on Fitbit heart rate, but we will not know that until there is a trial. No amount of speculation will answer the question, but that does not mean that we should ignore the end-time of the incident, or disbelieve it.