IA IA - Rose Burkert, 22, & Roger Atkison, 32, Williamsburg, 12 Sept 1980

[mcbrainder]

The bathroom is also an interesting subject. Toothpaste inside the bathtube. This mostly means the killer had used toothpaste as solvent to remove bloodstains which no one will be arguing would have been splattered after such brutal blows being done to the victim's heads. The writing on the mirror. The word "THIS" and the subsequent illegible words written with soap bits. I do not know if the others words were deliberatily erased or faded in such small time (if we are talking about something rather a mirror dappled with hot steam, I do not believe the soap writing simply faded away with time). These circumstances shows a killer that care to spend time, confidently, in the crime scene after a double murder have been committed, in a motel full of people. But he probably knows nobody will enter sooner, because there is a "Not Disturb" sign outside, the TV is on and not loud and the clock shows a hour of comfort, a time that nobody will come to perturb the guests. But then there are the two chairs facing the side of the bed where Roger is the closest. At first sight we can picture 2 killers sitting those chairs, threatening and arguing... but the chairs could have been there since the victims entered the room (Which I think not) or the killer just put them there with that precise intention to fool authorities... or maybe the killer put them there in a ocasionally manner. either way, the chairs are other factor that makes this whole crime more intricated and perplexing.

I believe the toothpaste was used to clean blood. I had heard there was blood and toothpaste in the sink. Makes sense to me.

As for the mirror, it would be fantastic if pictures would be released because maybe someone could decipher the writing under the scrub out, but the impression I get, from a contact and from the stories, is that a message was written and then scribbled out, including the word "this," but "this" was the only word that was still readable.

 

[mcbrainder]

Did Rose went to the bar first before moving the car? Why? Any particular reason? The call from the reception was placed at 9:30 approx. Rose dresses up or she's still dressed, gets out and removes her car from the parking lot area for the handicapped. Is this the time she goes to the bar instead to room 260? But why? What followed next before she entered the room?

The bar could have been immediately before. A thought: Maybe the confrontation was because they didn't want to move the car. Hotel is packed. Maybe there was no where to park. Maybe they'd threatened to have their car towed.

Why go to the bar alone anyway? They were there together for the weekend. If she went to the bar alone, I'd assume it was because they were fighting or because he ordered her there because something triggered him to think they were followed and he wanted her to hide out.

I don't believe that Rose went to the bar to have a drink without Roger. He was either with her or she was there for another reason. If she tried to use the phone, it seems to me that something was up. Maybe she was spooked by circumstance and tried to make arrangements to go home.

To even have the time that each call was placed would be very helpful.

 

[CursSleuth]

McBrainder, when you say two brothers, you're talking about Marcella's brothers? Who were they?

 

[mcbrainder]

McBrainder, when you say two brothers, you're talking about Marcella's brothers? Who were they?

Her father in law and his brother (Charles Ray Hatcher)

CRH was Marcella's uncle.

 

[CursSleuth]

Sorry, offcourse, one was CRH, sorry for the prompting idiotic question. And do you have any info on the other brother? His personality? Close to family type?

 

[mcbrainder]

McBrainder, when you say two brothers, you're talking about Marcella's brothers? Who were they? CRH and?

Floyd Hatcher.

He passed away earlier this year.

 

[mcbrainder]

Her father in law and his brother (Charles Ray Hatcher)

CRH was Marcella's uncle.

There's not much out there about him. I've seen some pictures. He doesn't look like a happy guy.

He served in WWII.

Not much else.

 

[CursSleuth]

So police hasn't got anything on him either, it what it seems, which states he wasn't even a suspect, I think...right?

 

[mcbrainder]

So police hasn't got anything on him either, it what it seems, which states he wasn't even a suspect, I think...right?

I don't want to get in too much depth on this, but I think police DO believe it was him and CRH but could never prove it.

 

[CursSleuth]

The bar could have been immediately before. A thought: Maybe the confrontation was because they didn't want to move the car. Hotel is packed. Maybe there was no where to park. Maybe they'd threatened to have their car towed.

Why go to the bar alone anyway? They were there together for the weekend. If she went to the bar alone, I'd assume it was because they were fighting or because he ordered her there because something triggered him to think they were followed and he wanted her to hide out.

I don't believe that Rose went to the bar to have a drink without Roger. He was either with her or she was there for another reason. If she tried to use the phone, it seems to me that something was up. Maybe she was spooked by circumstance and tried to make arrangements to go home.

To even have the time that each call was placed would be very helpful.

Your first paragraph makes utter sense, the last ones not so. But then again, we have a bartender going wild out of town... Really perplexing this case.
It would be a coincidence they are having an argument in that time frame before the receptionist call them to remove the car. But, why an argument with a bartender instead anyone else? Does the bartender is to blame for Rose's infraction of a forbidden parking issue? Nobody there at the time and she picks up the bartender? Maybe she parked the car and went for a fast drink and started to talk with him about the situation, complaining? Why the bartender ran away days after the murders and waht he said to the police after they caught him up some months or years later?

 

[CursSleuth]

I don't want to get in too much depth on this, but I think police DO believe it was him and CRH but could never prove it.

Interesting, very interesting comment McBrainder. I just picture myself seing the senseless, irrational CRH scribbling the mirror and the brother erasing it rapidly saying "The ****** you're doing? Are you crazy? They will know it was us"... So much hypothesis and assumptions one can make about this case.

 

[CursSleuth]

If we assume, as you say, Police were thinking CRH (Charles R. Hatcher) and FH (Floyd Hatcher) committed the murder, let's go through the case with them in mind.

CRH escapes on September 6 and along the way goes see his brother or sister (I thing not so smart to do as could be the first place where police will try to procur him - nevertheless we can guess he could stayed out hidding and vigilante or it was hidden by his family and police didn't find him and dismissed the place).

CRH hears the laments and prejudices about Roger's infidelities and the possible money involved. CRH is a wacko and a murderer and to do such a thing is like child's play. Marcella could have persuaded FH to do it. Plenty of money to distribute and share after Roger's death. Better, he would not cheat ever again. Marcella would be the last to laugh and... win. FH talks to CRH and obviously he enters the scene even if doesn't get any dough whatsoever. (Those events may have occured between September 8-11)

FH and CRH know that Roger's working in Kahoka, Missouri. It must be on September 12, early in the morning that they start to watch Roger in Kahoka. When Roger is picked up by Rose much later, CRH and FH start to follow them sneakly through the highways that lead to Williamsburg, Iowa (a clue to why the killer(s) knew where they were). Probbaly Rose and Roger are so distracted of the romantic getaway that they doesn't or even think they're being followed.

FH and CRH learn they are trying to get into the Amana-Inn motel and stay idle for awhile. (And if so, no matter if they got the cancellation open or not, they would be killed anyway in another motel) - CRH confessed to many murders to police but if he done this one, he never talked because he wanted to protect his brother... or maybe police in Nebraska and Missouri never confronted him with this case.

FH and CRH catches Rose while she's returning from the parking lot with a gun (this weapon surely must have been used to supress any thoughts of the victims concerning defense/screams/attacks). Rose is obviously dressed and Roger is completely caught by surprise with the menacing entrance of the brothers holding Rose. Indeed, probably, the chairs were laid in front of the bed while the killers talked with the victims... (even if Rose stayed a little farther from them, but the room was small and one killer certainly was pointing a gun). The conversation could have been a myriad of many things, including threats and promises that they would not kill them. Maybe Roger stood up to his manhood and didn't took the seriousness of the situation as a victim and said that he would proceed with the divorce anyway or... didn't. They rather used a noiseless weapon and hatch'em with mighty fierce killing them instantly. How they did it I can only guess, but surely it must have been only one person giving the blows or at least it must have be only one axe. Who died first I guess it was Rose (women tend to scream after some violent scene) Rose is striked, and immediately Roger is also striked, even if he got the time to put his arms and hands over his head. (Remember they are pretty much closer together lying in the bed. A person standing besides Rose (I know there were suitcases on the floor of Rose's side so, maybe the killer was at the other side but nevertheless threw the blows at Rose first) strikes her once, strikes him once and then punch more several blows in each other's skulls.

I will write more tomorrow.

 

[spoonball32]

Found this on Charles Hatcher. Note the entry for Sept 6 1980 on the timeline.

http://maamodt.asp.radford.edu/Psyc 405/serial killers/Hatcher, Charles - fall, 2005.pdf

 

[mysterymike]

Found this on Charles Hatcher. Note the entry for Sept 6 1980 on the timeline.

http://maamodt.asp.radford.edu/Psyc 405/serial killers/Hatcher, Charles - fall, 2005.pdf

It sounds like alot of investigating went into this timeline by these people, and so I believe it is pretty accurate. It lends great credence to the September 6, 1980 escape by CRH from the Norfolk Regional Center, which is in Nebraska, not Missouri.

This date of escape should now be put to rest. This convinces me even more that CRH is one of the killers. This is not a killer changing his MO, this is a killer doing a favor for family.

 

[CursSleuth]

It sounds like alot of investigating went into this timeline by these people, and so I believe it is pretty accurate. It lends great credence to the September 6, 1980 escape by CRH from the Norfolk Regional Center, which is in Nebraska, not Missouri.

This date of escape should now be put to rest. This convinces me even more that CRH is one of the killers. This is not a killer changing his MO, this is a killer doing a favor for family.

Your conclusion is pretty understandable and I my opine in your favour. But if Floyd Hatcher, lead by his sister Marcella, convinced CRH, we must ask ourselves the question of how much FH thought CRH reliable and rational to go along in a killing spree. If you read the timelines in that document, you will notice CRH is a very unstable, psycopath, deviant individual, committing alot of sexual crimes and getting caught many times, not spending more time in prison because of law process holes and police incompetence. In my last post I dismissed the bartender incident because I do not have many solid info about it. But one thing is clear. Rose didn't know FH and CRH. I still do not know if the mortician convention took place within the motel or a place near it. If that night the motel was packed with morticians and other guests, maybe FH and CRH could have blended among them while following Rose upstairs to the room. But then again, there was the possibility that someone later could remember such singular troupe, especially CRH who was typecasted as having an antisocial personality and a mentally disturbed sex offender. This is a big question those who play in favour that FH and CRH murdered Rose and Roger that night. How much percentage or margin of error could have happened if CRH went along with his brother to kill two people in an overbooked motel? How much FH trusted his own brother? Maybe the soap bits, the scribbling and the savage overkill blows could possible go in the direction of a deranged person, not a profissional, cold and rational killer. These two personalitties might be really the prime suspects and maybe the real killers. FH could have done it for money and familiar issues, on the other hand, CRH could have it gone all along just for fun, blood and maybe familiar justice too. Of all the people suspected, except for Rose's ex-bf, none of them fit so promising and well in the equation as these Hatcher brothers. One question: There is some data concerning Floyd being interrogated by the Missouri or Iowa police?

 

[mcbrainder]

I'd agree that they make the best suspects. If it had been a professional hit, the gore would be unnecessary. It would have been a cleaner scene and probably done somewhere else. It seems to me that the point of it being in the hotel was to bust them.

This has a formula to it that you don't see in most, if any, other cases.

Revenge, money, the help of a serial killer. It's probably hard to solve because it's unconventional...because there was two people who were attached but with different motives. I imagine CRH sat by idly, while his brother did the speaking. When the time came, he probably gave the fatal blows. Floyd would have been there to help his daughter, maybe with ideas of financial gain. Maybe he just didn't like Roger in general. He saw his daughter hurting, in a helpless situation, and he took care of it, whether by request or initiative on his part. CRH is recently escaped from an institution. He was laying low, probably in his hometown. Maybe he wanted a place to sleep, some money, food... Brother helps him out (hard to know what their relationship was really like), brother tells him what's going on and what he's going to do. CRH goes along. Maybe it was even CRH's idea. "I've done it before. It's easy."

BTW, CRH was interrogated about this crime. One of the reasons he was dismissed was because he admitted to others but denied this and the belief was he would just be honest. That doesn't fit though because like we've said: This wasn't his MO. This was a favor. To admit to this was to implicate others.

 

[CursSleuth]

Floyd would have been there to help his daughter,

Am I missing something or getting more confused with this case? Marcella is Floyd's sister or daughter??

 

[CursSleuth]

I'd agree that they make the best suspects. If it had been a professional hit, the gore would be unnecessary. It would have been a cleaner scene and probably done somewhere else. It seems to me that the point of it being in the hotel was to bust them.

This has a formula to it that you don't see in most, if any, other cases.

Revenge, money, the help of a serial killer. It's probably hard to solve because it's unconventional...because there was two people who were attached but with different motives. I imagine CRH sat by idly, while his brother did the speaking. When the time came, he probably gave the fatal blows. Floyd would have been there to help his daughter, maybe with ideas of financial gain. Maybe he just didn't like Roger in general. He saw his daughter hurting, in a helpless situation, and he took care of it, whether by request or initiative on his part. CRH is recently escaped from an institution. He was laying low, probably in his hometown. Maybe he wanted a place to sleep, some money, food... Brother helps him out (hard to know what their relationship was really like), brother tells him what's going on and what he's going to do. CRH goes along. Maybe it was even CRH's idea. "I've done it before. It's easy."

BTW, CRH was interrogated about this crime. One of the reasons he was dismissed was because he admitted to others but denied this and the belief was he would just be honest. That doesn't fit though because like we've said: This wasn't his MO. This was a favor. To admit to this was to implicate others.

I guess we could go along farther disserting if Rose's firend could provide much more reliable information.
Can you please tell me more about the whole bartender situation?

 

[mcbrainder]

Am I missing something or getting more confused with this case? Marcella is Floyd's sister or daughter??

She's his daughter, which makes him Roger's father-in-law

 

[mcbrainder]

I guess we could go along farther disserting if Rose's firend could provide much more reliable information.
Can you please tell me more about the whole bartender situation?

If I had more, I'd happily give it.

That's my number one priority...to learn more about the bartender situation.