IA IA - Rose Burkert, 22, & Roger Atkison, 32, Williamsburg, 12 Sept 1980

[mcbrainder]

I hear you. I'm trying not to be close-minded, but I drew my conclusions after years of research on this case and until someone else comes into the spotlight, I can't help but have my belief.

I had heard a couple years ago that DNA was being run because another suspect related to Rose was supposedly in that area at that time. I never knew what came of it, but I know there were toenail clippings and cigarette butts in the room, so if CRH was involved, it seems they'd be able to match. I'm not sure how active this investigation is, and I haven't seen much from Rose's family as far as a resolution. Her daughter was raised by her brother and I don't know what she was ever told. I'd like to talk to her, but she was 3 at the time. There was also the babysitter that was with her and my friend has had some contact with her, but nothing came of that.

It sounds like you and I see this as having gone down the same way.

 

[mysterymike]

[FONT=&quot]Yes, we do seem to look at this case in the same way. I would imagine that some others who know the case well may come to the same conclusion on suspects, although I’m sure there are also some that like other suspects better.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Concerning the CRH angle, I have many unanswered questions, and here is one.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
With regards to the “following” scenario, I mapped out the route on mapquest most likely taken by Roger and Rose from Kahoka on that day, assuming they knew ahead of time they were going to Amana. This route would have taken them north out of Kahoka on highway 81. Well, by taking this route it is 2 lane highways all the way and a little over 2 hour drive. It is somewhat winding with lots of turns on to different roads and passing by small towns. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
While it is quite possible to follow someone for that long through all those different roads, turns and towns without losing sight of them, it would also be very easy to lose track of them. All it would take is a stop light or a couple cars passing in front of the followers or a hill or a sudden turn and you would lose sight of them permanently. One time is all it would take for the killers to lose sight of Roger and Rose and not be able to find them again. And with this route, that would be easy to do. And if the killers followed too closely for too long (and 2 hours is a long time on different roads), I would think Roger and Rose would get suspicious, unless of course, they were just too enamored with each other to notice them being followed.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
You mentioned one gas station attendant saying he saw someone following them. Just one person, and not two? If the attendant noticed, I would think Roger and Rose would have noticed also. I guess what I’m saying is that it would be very easy to lose sight of someone you’re following if you’re following them for over two hours on different two lane highways through red stop lights and signs and other cars that could make you easily lose sight of them, and all it would take is one time and you wouldn’t be able to find them again.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Unless, of course, the killers KNEW where they were going and didn’t need to follow them.[/FONT]

 

[CursSleuth]

The only other reason to believe there was two people was that there were two chairs placed at the side of the bed--on Roger's side. I think a somewhat lengthy conversation took place.

Not sure, unless they were talking with a gun pointed at them. Both Atkinson and Burkert would scream or try to do something because they would know what would happen to them as the conversation was going along. The two chairs placed near the bed could also be casually or something to descredit the investigation. What is an enigma to me (it is a pitty that we do not know the complete layout of that motel) is how the killer or killers got inside and out with a packed motel and people swarming all over. The idea of getting together in that motel must have been a secret. Maybe Burkert and Atkinson were being followed or spied. But as I read your posts it seems to me that the idea of cheating and Atkinson being a womanizer could have led to a enraged husband or else to punish the prevaricator. That or Burkert's ex paid someone to kill both... we all know now that he was a wacko and a stalker... fascinating case indeed. Only if we had access to all the evidence on this...

 

[mcbrainder]

[FONT=&quot]Yes, we do seem to look at this case in the same way. I would imagine that some others who know the case well may come to the same conclusion on suspects, although I’m sure there are also some that like other suspects better.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Concerning the CRH angle, I have many unanswered questions, and here is one.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
With regards to the “following” scenario, I mapped out the route on mapquest most likely taken by Roger and Rose from Kahoka on that day, assuming they knew ahead of time they were going to Amana. This route would have taken them north out of Kahoka on highway 81. Well, by taking this route it is 2 lane highways all the way and a little over 2 hour drive. It is somewhat winding with lots of turns on to different roads and passing by small towns. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
While it is quite possible to follow someone for that long through all those different roads, turns and towns without losing sight of them, it would also be very easy to lose track of them. All it would take is a stop light or a couple cars passing in front of the followers or a hill or a sudden turn and you would lose sight of them permanently. One time is all it would take for the killers to lose sight of Roger and Rose and not be able to find them again. And with this route, that would be easy to do. And if the killers followed too closely for too long (and 2 hours is a long time on different roads), I would think Roger and Rose would get suspicious, unless of course, they were just too enamored with each other to notice them being followed.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
You mentioned one gas station attendant saying he saw someone following them. Just one person, and not two? If the attendant noticed, I would think Roger and Rose would have noticed also. I guess what I’m saying is that it would be very easy to lose sight of someone you’re following if you’re following them for over two hours on different two lane highways through red stop lights and signs and other cars that could make you easily lose sight of them, and all it would take is one time and you wouldn’t be able to find them again.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Unless, of course, the killers KNEW where they were going and didn’t need to follow them.[/FONT]

Interesting about the mapping you did and I agree...following wouldn't be easy. In addition, if there really were gas station stops, you would think the father in law would be recognizable. Maybe not CRH. Who knows if Roger even ever met the guy, but following would not be easy. I've thought about that in the past as well.

One angle I've considered is the babysitter who was watching Rose's daughter. I know there were 3 calls that night. One was to the babysitter from the hotel. I don't know about the other two. It's possible they either somehow learned where she was staying via calls, the babysitter, or possibly really did successfully follow. Keep in mind too that Roger's wife would potentially have been called by Roger himself. She knew he was going out of town for business. He may have checked in. He'd see no reason to tell her he was anywhere other than where he really was.

I don't think Roger or Rose knew they'd actually be at that hotel. If memory serves me, they were headed to some kind of festival or out of town event (I can get clarification on this) and they just stopped along the way. They wouldn't have had reservations. All the articles say there was a last minute cancellation at the hotel. Their room was on the second floor in the corner. There was no forced entry. Someone walked in and out, probably late, undetected. I would rule out that this was a random act based on those facts alone.

So if it wasn't a random act, someone would have to know exactly where to find them, and since Roger and Rose didn't even know what hotel they'd end up in when they started out, that leads me to believe that they were either followed or told someone, or told someone who told someone.

 

[mcbrainder]

Not sure, unless they were talking with a gun pointed at them. Both Atkinson and Burkert would scream or try to do something because they would know what would happen to them as the conversation was going along. The two chairs placed near the bed could also be casually or something to descredit the investigation. What is an enigma to me (it is a pitty that we do not know the complete layout of that motel) is how the killer or killers got inside and out with a packed motel and people swarming all over. The idea of getting together in that motel must have been a secret. Maybe Burkert and Atkinson were being followed or spied. But as I read your posts it seems to me that the idea of cheating and Atkinson being a womanizer could have led to a enraged husband or else to punish the prevaricator. That or Burkert's ex paid someone to kill both... we all know now that he was a wacko and a stalker... fascinating case indeed. Only if we had access to all the evidence on this...

Rose's friend said she believes Rose would have run. I'm not so sure. People freeze in fear sometimes--especially if the belief that cooperating might spare them. If you look at the map of the room, the hallway that leads in, passes the bathroom and leads to the bed. The bodies were found under the covers, so a quick attempt to run may have been futile. The TV was on when they were found. It may have been on when this happened.

As for the hotel being packed, I think maybe someone did see them but didn't know what they saw. I think about any time I'm in a hotel, I pass people all the time. I don't really observe them or know what I'm seeing. I suppose if a crime went down, my memory might be heightened. I know a lot of people were interviewed and there were no witnesses that saw anything strange.

I would still guess that Rose and Roger may have believed they wouldn't be harmed. If the brother told Roger he wanted to talk (chairs set up). They talk...eventually the realization they'd be killed. Maybe they were asked to lay on their stomachs (That's how they were found) and told they wouldn't be harmed. Maybe they had no choice. Maybe there was a gun. Rose had numerous lacerations to the back of the head. She may not have seen it coming. Roger tried to protect his head with his hands, so he did. I think they were let in first, because they knew who they were and they were busted ("I just want to talk to you. Let me in or I'll talk to your wife")-just a guess there. Then, as the conversation played out, the fear set in. By the time they knew what was going to happen, it was too late.

 

[mysterymike]

[QUOTE/]I don't think Roger or Rose knew they'd actually be at that hotel. If memory serves me, they were headed to some kind of festival or out of town event (I can get clarification on this) and they just stopped along the way. They wouldn't have had reservations. All the articles say there was a last minute cancellation at the hotel. Their room was on the second floor in the corner. There was no forced entry. Someone walked in and out, probably late, undetected. I would rule out that this was a random act based on those facts alone.

So if it wasn't a random act, someone would have to know exactly where to find them, and since Roger and Rose didn't even know what hotel they'd end up in when they started out, that leads me to believe that they were either followed or told someone, or told someone who told someone.[/QUOTE]

[FONT=&amp]That sounds logical. Your knowledge and explanation of this case makes sense, and I would now say they basically had have been followed, probably from Kahoka, and all stops along the way, until they made their final stop of the evening at the Amana Holiday Inn.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]
Thinking about it, it probably wouldn’t be that difficult for word to get out about their weekend getaway. Then, it was just a matter of the killer/s following them to their final destination.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]
I read where Rose had an argument with the bartender. Why in the world would she argue with a bartender? So, I take it that she and Roger went to the hotel bar after they checked in?[/FONT]

 

[mcbrainder]

[FONT=&amp]That sounds logical. Your knowledge and explanation of this case makes sense, and I would now say they basically had have been followed, probably from Kahoka, and all stops along the way, until they made their final stop of the evening at the Amana Holiday Inn.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]
Thinking about it, it probably wouldn’t be that difficult for word to get out about their weekend getaway. Then, it was just a matter of the killer/s following them to their final destination.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]
I read where Rose had an argument with the bartender. Why in the world would she argue with a bartender? So, I take it that she and Roger went to the hotel bar after they checked in?[/FONT][/QUOTE]

I would love to read the case files and learn more about the bartender. I don't consider him a suspect, but there are numerous questions I would like answered revolving around him to help establish a timeline.

What time was Rose at the bar?
Was Roger with her?
When did she leave?
What was the confrontation with the bartender about?
Was she acting strange? (I've wondered if Roger had her hide out at the bar while he talked to his father in law. She comes back later to find they're still there.)

In addition, at some point, Rose or Roger had to go outside and move the car, since they had parked in a handicapped zone. What time was that?

What time were the 3 phone calls?

Rose and Roger checked in after 7 pm, so it seems like a lot happened between then and 1 pm the next day.

 

[CursSleuth]

[QUOTE/][FONT=&amp]I read where Rose had an argument with the bartender. Why in the world would she argue with a bartender? So, I take it that she and Roger went to the hotel bar after they checked in?[/FONT]

You're right, I never remember any source that I read mentioning a bartander. But, alas, I didn't follow this case with much detail and that was 2 years ago. That source also says that the bartender disapperared after the murders... very strange indeed if this is true and an excellent lead for the police to follow... but they didn't and I never heard of this peculiar mentioning.

 

[CursSleuth]

In addition, at some point, Rose or Roger had to go outside and move the car, since they had parked in a handicapped zone. What time was that? What time were the 3 phone calls?

Do you have some website or source post about the whole case? Now I am getting more curious... never read about a bartender before nor a parking in a handicapped zone either...

 

[mcbrainder]

Do you have some website or source post about the whole case? Now I am getting more curious... never read about a bartender before nor a parking in a handicapped zone either...

The bartender joined the military the next day and by the time the police tracked him down, he was in Germany. Like I said earlier, this case is juicy because all the potential suspects. Later, he was interviewed and he did run away due to the attention because he thought he'd be blamed and had other things in his past. He was ruled out by the police--I don't remember ever hearing whether or not he passed a lie detector. It would seem like overkill for him to brutally murder two people over a confrontation though.

I want to say that moving the car is in an available article. I'll see if I can find it. I used to subscribe to the newspaper archive site and read a few things I can't find anywhere else, but most of what I know comes from what's available or from a couple contacts close to the case. One in particular has a contact who worked the case and from time to time, will relay my questions and get answers back.

I always thought that when the car was moved, if the brothers were in the parking lot, that might have been a chance to follow further into the hotel.

I did learn an interesting detail last night. Roger had been working for the last week out of town and Rose had been with him. I don't know where they'd been staying throughout the week, but Roger was supposed to come home that weekend and he told his wife that he was going to stay instead of travel. Rose picked him up at his workplace and they drove her car, allegedly because they'd hope her car wouldn't be recognized by the family because the wife had known he was cheating. I think Roger was taking precautions because he knew his wife was suspicious. Maybe they'd dodged them in the past and this time, they were followed.

If the family didn't know Rose, it's true they wouldn't know her car either, which gives more credibility to the idea that Roger was followed straight from work that day. I don't believe the wife had ever met Rose. I know she went to her funeral, but all she did was walk up to the coffin, look at Rose, and leave.

 

[CursSleuth]

I know she went to her funeral, but all she did was walk up to the coffin, look at Rose, and leave.

Sorry to say this, but my instant thinking was to envisage the wife screaming mentally... "B***h" or "You deserved what you've got". OK, enough jokes.
In your humblest opinion, this was certainly a "cheating husband" type revenge?

 

[mcbrainder]

Sorry to say this, but my instant thinking was to envisage the wife screaming mentally... "B***h" or "You deserved what you've got". OK, enough jokes.
In your humblest opinion, this was certainly a "cheating husband" type revenge?

That's my personal belief. I know it's the belief of one of the detectives that worked the case too.

The wife made out pretty well after too. Married shortly after. Sued the hotel for 3 million and settled out of court.

Supposedly the case file on this is stacks and stacks of pages. I think the answer lies within somewhere. It'd be nice if they'd run DNA though and put this to rest for good. I believe both the people that were there are now dead, so at this point, there will never be justice. Only closure.

 

[CursSleuth]

That's my personal belief. I know it's the belief of one of the detectives that worked the case too.

The wife made out pretty well after too. Married shortly after. Sued the hotel for 3 million and settled out of court.

Supposedly the case file on this is stacks and stacks of pages. I think the answer lies within somewhere. It'd be nice if they'd run DNA though and put this to rest for good. I believe both the people that were there are now dead, so at this point, there will never be justice. Only closure.

I still find very odd and unusual the word "THIS" written on the mirror. If you opine that was an answer to a hypotetical answer to the question "What you're going to do about it?", the killer could have benn in trouble afterwards if that person someday or right away talked to the authorities, even if that person was trustfully. And I think the killer stood sometime in the bedroom after the murders. The toothpaste in the bathtub (which probably served as a cleaning product for blood removal) the chairs, the soap carving... it might as well the killer stood around the room inspecting the possible clues left. The tv was on (noise), the "Do not disturb" sign at the door... all things in favour of the killer. Just one question. They were found lying down on the bed, faces against the pillows? And murdering people with an axe in the middle of the night will certainly have someone hearing the probable screams of pain and horror of the victims, which by the way were two, not just one... maybe you are right signaling 2 killers... I think one killer couldn't kill both with an axe without a fight or screams echoing thru the motel, unless they were caught by surprise... first Burkert and then Atkisnson, who probably woke up and still managed to see the axe being thrown upon him... I love this case, pitty we cannot have more serious investigative material to exploit it to the fullest.

 

[mcbrainder]

I still find very odd and unusual the word "THIS" written on the mirror. If you opine that was an answer to a hypotetical answer to the question "What you're going to do about it?", the killer could have benn in trouble afterwards if that person someday or right away talked to the authorities, even if that person was trustfully. And I think the killer stood sometime in the bedroom after the murders. The toothpaste in the bathtub (which probably served as a cleaning product for blood removal) the chairs, the soap carving... it might as well the killer stood around the room inspecting the possible clues left. The tv was on (noise), the "Do not disturb" sign at the door... all things in favour of the killer. Just one question. They were found lying down on the bed, faces against the pillows? And murdering people with an axe in the middle of the night will certainly have someone hearing the probable screams of pain and horror of the victims, which by the way were two, not just one... maybe you are right signaling 2 killers... I think one killer couldn't kill both with an axe without a fight or screams echoing thru the motel, unless they were caught by surprise... first Burkert and then Atkisnson, who probably woke up and still managed to see the axe being thrown upon him... I love this case, pitty we cannot have more serious investigative material to exploit it to the fullest.

The media reported it that way, but in reality, there was a fuller message written and most of it was scrubbed out and only the word "this" was still legible.

I hadn't thought much about the killer hanging around after to set the scene, but that's probably true. As long as it wasn't too noisy, they probably had plenty of time to get away. Probably waited to make an exit when no one was in the halls.

I agree that Burkert probably got it first. If Roger was the target, they probably wanted him to see the ramifications of what he was doing. I think they were both awake and under the impression that if they cooperate, they wouldn't be harmed. Rose's friend told me she thought the covers might have been put on after the murder. Rose was fully clothed, so she probably wasn't sleeping. I think she was following orders.

 

[mcbrainder]

I still find very odd and unusual the word "THIS" written on the mirror. If you opine that was an answer to a hypotetical answer to the question "What you're going to do about it?", the killer could have benn in trouble afterwards if that person someday or right away talked to the authorities, even if that person was trustfully. And I think the killer stood sometime in the bedroom after the murders. The toothpaste in the bathtub (which probably served as a cleaning product for blood removal) the chairs, the soap carving... it might as well the killer stood around the room inspecting the possible clues left. The tv was on (noise), the "Do not disturb" sign at the door... all things in favour of the killer. Just one question. They were found lying down on the bed, faces against the pillows? And murdering people with an axe in the middle of the night will certainly have someone hearing the probable screams of pain and horror of the victims, which by the way were two, not just one... maybe you are right signaling 2 killers... I think one killer couldn't kill both with an axe without a fight or screams echoing thru the motel, unless they were caught by surprise... first Burkert and then Atkisnson, who probably woke up and still managed to see the axe being thrown upon him... I love this case, pitty we cannot have more serious investigative material to exploit it to the fullest.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...SeB5V44yohYDZndBcskCSjkQ&ust=1495850797521243

 

[mcbrainder]

This might be a stretch but if you look at the crime scene picture in the above link, it looks as if Rose was on the side of the bed Roger intended on being, since his suitcase and belongings were on that side. Habitually, a person would keep their belongings on the side they sleep--not that this is an important detail, but I think the killers ordered Rose into the bed for sure. The fact that she was clothed makes me think maybe she had stepped out. Maybe she moved the car and they came in with her. Maybe she came back from the bar.

Rose's friend said that Rose wasn't a confrontational person...that she wouldn't get into a public argument like that. I think it's possible that she was at the bar and somewhat hysterical, as if she was afraid about the fact that she could get busted or that Roger was getting visitors at the hotel. Maybe she ordered a drink and Roger was supposed to meet her after they left and she didn't have any money on her. Maybe she was trying to ask the bartender to check on something he was unable to check on. The content of the confrontation would be helpful. Since he ran away and she was killed, it seems the confrontation details came from bystanders, so it must have been somewhat significant enough for other people to notice.

Another detail about the picture: One chair sorta faces the bed; the one closest to the lamp. It would be Roger's father in law that would have had a conversation with Roger, so he would have likely been sitting in that chair. The other chair is faced more toward the nightstand. as if whoever sat there wasn't as involved, but it looks as if the soap carvings surround that chair, which leads me to believe it was CRH who carved the soap, which also makes me think it was him that wrote the message. If that was true, father in law probably prompted him to scrub it out or did it himself. Father in law was there to take care of a problem. CRH was just there to help. It was probably father in law who was using his brain and making an effort not to get caught, while CRH was just doing what he'd done before.

Of course, the chairs could have been moved or I could have it all wrong. I see it as father in law talking with Roger, CRH carving soap, clipping his nails, etc. Rose probably frozen in fear, contemplating screaming or making a run for it, Roger trying to reason. Eventually, they tell them to face down for some reason, under the guise of some kind of assured safety if they cooperate. Rose gets hit before she can react. Roger reaches up protectively, maybe begs (men don't scream loud anyway), and they finish on him. They stick around to clean up the blood, dry themselves off, wait for the coast to be clear before exiting.

Whatever happened in that room is the stuff of nightmares.

 

[mysterymike]

Sorry to say this, but my instant thinking was to envisage the wife screaming mentally... "B***h" or "You deserved what you've got". OK, enough jokes.
In your humblest opinion, this was certainly a "cheating husband" type revenge?

You're exactly right, no joke. It would not surprise me if those words were whispered during that coffin visit by her. Actually, if she is, in fact, partly responsible for their deaths, she had alot of gall showing up at Rose's funeral.

 

[mysterymike]

Some questions....

Did Rose go to the bar alone? And if so, why? You would think they would both have gone together, maybe for a couple drinks before heading back to the room.

If Rose did go alone, was she met by the killers when she returned to the room? Possibly even followed her back to the room, then when she got to the door they pulled a weapon on her and forced her into the room? Or maybe that Roger had already let them in while she was gone and they were there when she returned? These questions could explain why Roger was in his underwear. I have always wondered why he was in his underwear.

 

[mcbrainder]

Some questions....

Did Rose go to the bar alone? And if so, why? You would think they would both have gone together, maybe for a couple drinks before heading back to the room.

If Rose did go alone, was she met by the killers when she returned to the room? Possibly even followed her back to the room, then when she got to the door they pulled a weapon on her and forced her into the room? Or maybe that Roger had already let them in while she was gone and they were there when she returned? These questions could explain why Roger was in his underwear. I have always wondered why he was in his underwear.

I've been thinking along the same line, but don't know why they'd split up, unless they were fighting. They checked in sometime after 7 and ordered room service around 9, so one or both may have been at the bar late. I'd really like to know if she was at the bar alone too. If she was, I'd assume 1 of 2 things.

1: Roger and Rose were fighting.
2: She was told to wait there. (I'm leaning toward this, assuming he wasn't there)

 

[mysterymike]

I've been thinking along the same line, but don't know why they'd split up, unless they were fighting. They checked in sometime after 7 and ordered room service around 9, so one or both may have been at the bar late. I'd really like to know if she was at the bar alone too. If she was, I'd assume 1 of 2 things.

1: Roger and Rose were fighting.
2: She was told to wait there. (I'm leaning toward this, assuming he wasn't there)

You mean...told to wait there because he already had company and she knew it and he wanted to talk to them alone?