ID - 2 year boy accidentally shoots and kills mother in walmart in ths US

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  • #381
Here's some ways that the NRA works so hard to prevent gun accidents and promote responsible gun storage practices:

Edwards ignores that research has shown that these laws are associated with a reduction in gun deaths among children resulting from accidents and suicide.

<snipped for brevity>

When promoting such laws, only an "association" is needed to support their effectiveness.

That same "association" is plentiful for firearm safety programs by the NRA Foundation and the NSSF's Project ChildSafe.

Do you have a link for some impartial studies showing that the reduction in accidental firearms injuries is thanks to child access prevention laws?

I would submit that we can't know for sure, and it's probably some from column A and some from column B. I have nothing against child access prevention laws, as long as they're written sensibly. All too often, they're not written sensibly. Requirements to store firearms unloaded, for example, and requirements to store firearms separately from ammunition, are counter-productive to the self-defense purpose of keeping firearms in the home. I have a quick-access lockbox in my nightstand that keeps my 4-year-old grandson out but that allows me to keep my home defense handgun readily accessible, loaded, and ready for use, in case it's needed. That should satisfy any sensible child access prevention law, but in many states it would be illegal.

I do have a pond in my front yard, so I have to be very vigilant about that when my grandson is visiting. He's far more likely to drown than to die from an unintentional firearm injury. Although he's becoming a good enough swimmer now that the drowning risk is decreasing, I still have to be vigilant.
 
  • #382
CPS search peoples homes all the time in child abuse cases.

They have reason to believe a CRIME has been committed so they get a warrant before they bang on doors, demand access, and start seizing property.

I suppose a network of neighborhood snitches could be set up to report people that "may have a firearm" however in many areas of the country the backlash would be SEVERE and politicians would never even consider trying to pass a bill of that nature (though I could see California doing it).
 
  • #383
All parents know that children can climb chairs.

<snipped for brevity>

The danger is during the transitional period when children go from not being able to climb chairs to being able to do so.

Children start out as newborns being unable to do anything except sleep, cry, eat, and poop. My daughter had her second child a few months ago. She already has a very high-energy, rambunctious, very grabby 4-year-old. She was delighted at the fact that she could set down the baby in her infant seat to put away groceries or use the bathroom or something, and the baby would still be there 5 minutes later. She hadn't realized how easy that made things when her first one was that small, because previously she didn't have any basis for comparison.

Almost all children probably develop certain physical abilities sooner than their parents are aware of. They go from being unable to get into mom's purse to being able to. They go from being unable to open kitchen cabinets to being able to do so. They go from being unable to steal the car keys and going for a joyride to being able to do so. They go from being unable to manipulate a lighter to being able to do so. They go from being unable to open a child-proof medicine container to being able to do so. Children constantly take their parents by surprise at the things they're suddenly able to do. Every year, some small number of children will die because they were able to do something that their parents didn't know they were able to do. It doesn't always mean that the parents are irresponsible, or that new laws are needed. It means that parents must always be hyper-vigilant about everything when it comes to young children.
 
  • #384
  • #385
I do not believe in the general line of the NRA politics.


People do NOT join or support the NRA for their educational programs, they support for them as a pro-gun lobbyist group, the classes and other programs are a nice add-on for those that want them.

The purpose of the modern NRA is to be an advocacy group for gun owners. They are not supposed to be "reasonable" they are supposed to defend the rights of gun owners across the country. That is why people send them money, to defend our rights without compromise. There are LOTS of companies that provide all sorts of safes and devices for children, the NRA often advertises for those companies but that isn't their primary role.
 
  • #386
People do NOT join or support the NRA for their educational programs, they support for them as a pro-gun lobbyist group, the classes and other programs are a nice add-on for those that want them.

The purpose of the modern NRA is to be an advocacy group for gun owners. They are not supposed to be "reasonable" they are supposed to defend the rights of gun owners across the country. That is why people send them money, to defend our rights without compromise. There are LOTS of companies that provide all sorts of safes and devices for children, the NRA often advertises for those companies but that isn't their primary role.

True, but the NRA Foundation is a completely separate group with completely separate funding whose purpose is to promote firearm education and safety. Anyone who wishes to help promote firearm safety could donate to the NRA Foundation without any fear that their donation would be used for pro-gun lobbying.

The activities of the NRA Foundation and the NSSF's Project ChildSafe are associated with a reduction in gun deaths among children.
 
  • #387
You don't have to believe in the general line of NRA politics to support the NRA Foundation. It's a completely separate 501(c)3 organization with completely separate funding, whose goal is to teach firearm safety, law enforcement training, conservation, hunter eduction, and women's self defense, among other things. The NRA Foundation doesn't lobby and doesn't engage in political campaigning. It strictly provides grant money in support of eligible educational programs.

If your dislike of the NRA is so strong that you simply cannot support such a mission, you could support Project ChildSafe of the National Shooting Sports Foundation. http://nssf.org/safety/education.cfm

The very first paragraph of the NSSF's ChildSafe page says this:

"The number one way to prevent accidents and unauthorized access to firearms is to ensure guns are securely stored when not in use. Storing firearms responsibly is a 365-day-a-year obligation, and if someone cannot or will not accept that obligation, we strongly urge them not to own a firearm."

Can you disagree with that? Will you support Project ChildSafe?

A little further down that page:

"That&#8217;s why NSSF launched Project ChildSafe in 1999. It&#8217;s a national program to promote firearms responsibility, provide safety education to all gun owners, and distribute free gun locks in communities across the country. To date, Project ChildSafe has provided more than 36 million free firearm safety kits through partnerships with law enforcement agencies in all 50 states and five U.S. territories. Over the past decade, the number of accidental firearm fatalities has dropped by more than 20 percent"

Yeah, that sounds pretty good. Of course it requires that the people actually use them and not just own.

The rate of unintentional firearm deaths and injuries has been consistently decreasing for decades. As you know, it can be difficult to impossible to assign cause to effect. E.g., drunk driving deaths have been decreasing for decades. Is it because of educational and awareness programs? Is it because of stronger penalties for people who get caught driving drunk? Is it because of safer cars and safer roads? Is it because of better first-responder and ER medical care? I don't know, but I don't slam awareness and educational programs about the dangers of drunk driving because I can't absolutely prove their effectiveness.
Yeah, if you go by the national statistics it's impossible to show clear cause and effect because there are so many factors influencing things at the same time.

But on an individual level it would be possible to demonstrate changes if the programs are effective. Just study children who took part and verify that the programs change their behavior t and they're more likely to obey the safety instructions that they have received. Only that doesn't seem to be what the research shows, it shows that many kids learn to recite safety instructions but still play with guns regardless if they happen to find them.

Or do a case control-study and find out if the children who were involved in firearm accidents were more or less or equally likely to have received gun safety training. (I tried looking but wasn't able to find such a study, maybe someone has better luck.)

It may be totally impossible to ever demonstrate the effectiveness of the programs, if they're in fact ineffective.

Programs that don't change children's behavior in anywhere but the training setting aren't usually doing much.

I see that MADD takes total credit for the reduction in drunk driving deaths. http://www.madd.org/drunk-driving/about/history.html

"When MADD was founded in 1980, more than 21,000 people were killed in drunk driving crashes each year. Since then, we've been able to cut that deadly toll in half, but there is still more work to be done."

Sadly, drunk drivers still cause about 10,000 deaths per year in the U.S. -- about 10 times the number of unintentional firearm injuries. People drink and then get in their cars and go barreling down the highway, and they kill 10,000 people a year doing that. But we don't refer to a "stupid obsession with drinking and driving culture" and we don't refer to cars as "instruments of death."
I think that "instruments of death" quote has been fully covered now.
"the stupid obsession with gun culture" quote wasn't even my words to begin with so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up in your responses to me as if I need to keep defending that.

The fact is that despite anyone's obsession with unintentional firearm injuries, they are in fact freakishly rare. Every firearm safety course I've taken has emphasized the need to keep guns out of the hands of young children. Every firearm manual that came with every firearm I've ever bought has emphasized the need to keep guns out of the hands of young children. I doubt there's any gun owner in existence who isn't aware that leaving a loaded gun where a toddler can get his hands on it can result in tragedy. And yet.... sadly, people aren't perfect, and people make mistakes.

We have covered freakishly rare. You think it's freakishly rare, I think it's not. I don't think it's a fact that it's freakishly rare, it's your value evaluation. If it was freakishly rare I wouldn't expect to find so many cases of kids with guns on WS.


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...tally-shooting-self-at-Detroit-west-side-home
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ear-old-boy-dies-after-NJ-accidental-shooting
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...after-accidentallly-shooting-himself-with-Uzi
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...rl-accidentally-shoots-kills-instructor-with-
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Fayetteville-girl-accidentally-shoots-herself
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...identally-Shoots-and-Kills-2-Year-Old-Brother
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ice-5-year-old-girl-fatally-shoots-self-in-La
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Kentucky-boy-fatally-shoots-2-year-old-sister
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...lly-shoots-her-2-year-old-brother-in-Missouri
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...d-Girl-Accidentally-Shoots-Sleeping-Mom-Twice

Not even mentioning the cases where teens shot somebody on purpose, and must have got the gun somewhere.
The perception that this is so freakishly rare that it will not happen to us may be contributing to some of these cases. Parents frequently overestimate their own kids' gun safety behavior and think that this is something that happens to other people's dumber kids. Thus becoming less vigilant.
No laws will ever change that hard, cold fact. We will always, forever, have some number of fatalities every year due to someone's momentary inattention or lapse in judgment. Sometimes it will be children who die. Children will drown in pools, at beaches, in ponds, and in 5-gallon buckets. Children will get into moIm's medicine. Children will drink cleaning solutions. Children will fall off ladders. Children will play with fire and will stick metal things into electrical outlets.

Children frequently take their parents by surprise at their ability to do things, go places, and get into things that their parents didn't know they were capable of doing, going, or getting into.
Yes that is perfectly true. I don't dispute any of that. That's precisely the reason why parents need to think long and hard about where and how to store their firearms if they choose to keep them at home.
Some years ago, there was a boy in the neighborhood where I lived -- he was 3 at the time -- who climbed onto his parents' bedroom dresser while they slept and grabbed their car keys, snuck out of the house, got into the family car, drove it down the street, hit several parked cars and ended up in a ditch. A month later, that same little boy burned down the family's house while playing with a cigarette lighter. Seriously. Yeah, I got a link for anyone who doesn't believe me:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...K1NAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gPwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6966,1962825

Parents of young children need to be more vigilant, even while asleep, than is humanly possible. Fortunately, most of us manage to get our children to adulthood without something tragic happening, but I would submit that in almost all cases, and possibly all cases, it's not because we were perfect parents but because we were simply lucky.

Yeah, agreed. People need a lot of luck to keep all the bad things from happening to their children. Everyone's had some tight situations that could have ended badly but luckily didn't.

But you don't need to be either perfect or lucky to keep your own kids away from your own guns if you store them right.
 
  • #388
But you don't need to be either perfect or lucky to keep your own kids away from your own guns if you store them right.

You do, however, need to be perfect at storing them right -- always, 100% of the time -- and if you're not perfect at storing them right, you need to be lucky.

It's just like with anything else that can result in tragedy. You need to be perfect in your vigilance and care, and if you're not perfect you need to be lucky.
 
  • #389
You do, however, need to be perfect at storing them right -- always, 100% of the time -- and if you're not perfect at storing them right, you need to be lucky.

It's just like with anything else that can result in tragedy. You need to be perfect in your vigilance and care, and if you're not perfect you need to be lucky.

Yeah but it's easier to be lucky the 0,01 of the time when you fail to be perfect than be lucky 100 % of the time when you don't even try.

Parents who don't drive drunk with kids in the back seat need to be a lot less lucky to keep their kids safe on the roads than those who figure there's no point driving sober because it's down to luck anyway and hey, nobody's perfect, right?
 
  • #390
More than 400 children die annually in the United States from unintentional firearm injuries (Center to Prevent Handgun Violence [CPHV], 2000) and over 3000 children sustain non-fatal firearm injuries each year (Beaman, Annest, Mercy, Kresnow, & Pollack, 2000; Cummings, Grossman, Rivara, & Koepsell, 1997). There are in excess of two hundred million guns in America, and 43% of US households with children report owning at least one gun (CPHV, 2000).


Okay, that does not sound "freakishly rare" AT ALL to me. I guess one could try to manipulate those statistics by comparing them with the amount of guns present in the US to make it look like a tiny percentage of mortality/morbidity per gun, but imo, that's a lot of kids hurt and killed each year.

Thirty-three percent of firearms kept in homes are not stored safely (Stennies, Ikeda, Leadbetter, Houston, & Sacks, 1999).

BBM
If that's true, that's actually terrifying, and a total disgrace. One third - sounds like we've got a whole lot of irresponsible gun owners. Some would have us believe that most gun owners are storing their guns safely, and I guess 2/3 would be considered "most," but that's still an unacceptable number of unsecured weapons, much higher than I would have guessed.
 
  • #391
LinasK's advice is probably the best: Get her a dog. It doesn't even need to be a big one, just one that'll bark at intruders. The deterrent effect of a barking dog is a dog's single biggest advantage. A bad guy is likely to move on down the street to a house that doesn't have a barking dog to alert people to his presence.

Yeah, we tried that. But her school days can go very long, and it wasn't fair to the dog. Keeping a dog requires a lot of work/time/attention, and it became obvious very quickly that she didn't have the time to properly meet the dog's needs.

It was our family dog, not a dog we got specifically for her purposes. He does spend several weeks at a time with her, then comes home when her schedule gets unmanageable, and he is a good barker. His bark is more like a SCREAM and would scare the crap out of even the most hardened burglar, at least for a moment. :D
 
  • #392
If that's true, that's actually terrifying, and a total disgrace. One third - sounds like we've got a whole lot of irresponsible gun owners.

I guess I would fall into that "disgraceful category" and plan to stay there. I live alone, work from home, and prefer to keep my firearms loaded and readily accessible. I even have an antique gun case with a glass front.

Now I can hear people say "but what if your guns were stolen!". Yeah well if someone targets my rural house and kills my 6 dogs to get to the firearms then honestly the whereabouts of the firearms would be the LEAST of my concerns. If I have to travel and the house is empty then yes I make provisions to have them locked up, I don't have a huge collection but nevertheless I have too much time/money invested to risk theft.

I honestly do not care if strangers approve of the practice or not, and I am certain Georgia will NOT pass any legislation that forces me to change, at least not in the next 20 years. California passed (or tried to pass) legislation that would punish legal gun owners for being the victim of a crime if their guns were stolen so who knows what will happen there. I chose to relocate to GA from CA many years ago in part because the gun laws here ARE favorable for gun owners and that decision has paid off well.
 
  • #393
Well see here we go.

Somehow the discussion has now devolved into "the government wants to confiscate our guns!".

I might have missed it, but I haven't seen anyone on the thread advocating that the government should eliminate private gun ownership.

And I would argue with them on Second Amendment grounds.

I am truiy baffled. Isn't there any common ground here?

Is the stance that people who choose to own guns should be super responsible with those weapons equals the government wants to take away their guns?

Again, I'm baffled.
Yup! That's how I interpreted the paranoia. Same old, same old arguments when anyone tries to introduce sensible gun control. Unfortunately, the horse has already left the barn on banning private gun ownership.
 
  • #394
Yup! That's how I interpreted the paranoia. Same old, same old arguments when anyone tries to introduce sensible gun control. Unfortunately, the horse has already left the barn on banning private gun ownership.

bbm I've never owned a horse what does this mean? TIA
 
  • #395
bbm I've never owned a horse what does this mean? TIA
It's a metaphor, like "that ship has already sailed". In other words, as much as I wish it, banning private ownership of guns isn't going to happen.
 
  • #396
It's a metaphor, like "that ship has already sailed". In other words, as much as I wish it, banning private ownership of guns isn't going to happen.

How is that different from this? "the government wants to confiscate our guns!".
 
  • #397
Then I would like to know why a gun owner wouldn't feel paranoia.
 
  • #398
How is that different from this? "the government wants to confiscate our guns!".
The government doesn't want to, I do!!! If it were up to me, no private citizen would own a gun, only LE and the military, but I'm realistic to know that because of the vagueness of the language of the 2nd Amendment, it'll never get changed and won't happen, especially with the paranoia.
 
  • #399
More than 400 children die annually in the United States from unintentional firearm injuries
Okay, that does not sound "freakishly rare" AT ALL to me. I guess one could try to manipulate those statistics by comparing them with the amount of guns present in the US to make it look like a tiny percentage of mortality/morbidity per gun, but imo, that's a lot of kids hurt and killed each year.

About 4 million babies are born every year in the United States.

In 1 in 2,000 births, the baby is born as hermaphrodites. That's equal to a total of about 2,000 hermaphrodite babies born annually in the U.S.

2,000 hermaphrodite babies born every year vs. 400 children killed by unintentional firearm injuries.

Yes, actually, it's pretty freakishly rare. Obsession and paranoia about something doesn't make it more common, it just makes it scarier to those who are obsessed and paranoid about it.
 
  • #400
About 4 million babies are born every year in the United States.

In 1 in 2,000 births, the baby is born as hermaphrodites. That's equal to a total of about 2,000 hermaphrodite babies born annually in the U.S.

2,000 hermaphrodite babies born every year vs. 400 children killed by unintentional firearm injuries.

Yes, actually, it's pretty freakishly rare. Obsession and paranoia about something doesn't make it more common, it just makes it scarier to those who are obsessed and paranoid about it.

Anything that kills 400 children a year is of concern to me. In some places, that would be an entire grade school.
 
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