ID - 2 year boy accidentally shoots and kills mother in walmart in ths US

[CoolJ]

I'm not cherrypicking outliers. Research worldwide shows many many places where gun ownership is low and crime rates are high, where gun ownership is low and crime rates are low, where gun ownership is high and crime rates are low, and where gun ownership is high and crime rates are high. Gun ownership = lack of correlation with crime rates. If anything, there's more research showing that more guns = less crime, but I'm not even claiming that. I'm simply showing that crime rates do not correlate positively with gun ownership rates. All the wishing in the world won't change that cold, hard fact.

I am not speaking of a correlation between guns and crime. Crime is crime. It is everywhere. I am speaking about saving lives. Guns are instruments made for lethal force and I do not need research(although it is abundant) to tell me that where there are guns there is going to be more lives lost needlessly. Don't you want to see less people dying needlessly?

 

[CoolJ]

SBM

CoolJ and others
Pls indulge me, w this light hearted thought, in the midst of this serious discussion.

More guns = more deaths?
Sorry, no, only one death per person, no more, no less.

Back to topic.


RIP, young mother. May others learn from your actions and create a safer environment around themselves, as responsible gun owners and users.

Let me rephrase then.

More guns = more needless deaths

 

[CoolJ]

More cherry picking. Australia this time.

It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.
Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

• In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
• Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
• Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847


If there are enough cherries to pick, does it eventually stop being cherry picking and become "research"? How many cherries are needed for that, exactly?

But you have yet to cite any research to show us that more guns = less deaths. Show me that please, because I currently have 22 research articles stating the opposite.

 

[al66pine]

from my earlier post: More guns = more deaths? ....only one death per person, no more, no less.

Let me rephrase then.
More guns = more needless deaths

Needless? Can ppl simply decide they don't need to die, so they won't?

If we can say needlessly prematuredeaths, I'll move on.


Sleuthers --- Thx for so many civil & well considered points from various viewpoints.

 

[LinasK]

I wish that were the case. But alas, it is not.

People like Carolyn McCarthy want to ban gun-related things that they doesn't even know what they'd be banning. If it's associated with guns, they want to ban it.

Yeah, with good reason. Carolyn McCarthy's husband was shot to death on a subway by a stranger for no good reason!!!

 

[LinasK]

Actually it IS about guns. If I were interested in mere "control", I'd vote to strip you of your reproductive rights, your voting rights, your marriage rights, etc.

However none of those effects the safety and well being of anyone else. Your "right" to carry deadly weapons into Walmart, Publix, Starbucks, etc, does.

It IS the gun.

I could control you 100,000 different ways, but I have no care or desire to.

I do however care to curtail your right to put the public - including children - in harms way simpy because you want to exercise an outdated and misinterpreted constitutional "right".

Excellent post!!!:clap::clap::clap::goodpost:

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

So what do you do when the horse is already out of the barn?

Aka

How does one intend on reducing gun fatalities by regulating guns from the law-abiding public when the criminals already have them?

Because we know the perps have them!

Moo

 

[LinasK]

So what do you do when the horse is already out of the barn?

Aka

How does one intend on reducing gun fatalities by regulating guns from the law-abiding public when the criminals already have them?

Because we know the perps have them!

Moo

I feel as Garden Lady does, since we know that we can't ban private citizens from owning guns, the least we can do is regulate them just like having a driver's license, so at least there will be less needless preventable deaths such as the one in this case. I personally think the mother deserves the Darwin award for her neglect. It cost her her life, and could have cost other shoppers theirs as well.
Yes, I've left my purse in my cart while shopping, but NEVER knowing I had a loaded dangerous weapon in it!!!:banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I feel as Garden Lady does, since we know that we can't ban private citizens from owning guns, the least we can do is regulate them just like having a driver's license, so at least there will be less needless preventable deaths such as the one in this case. I personally think the mother deserves the Darwin award for her neglect. It cost her her life, and could have cost other shoppers theirs as well.
Yes, I've left my purse in my cart while shopping, but NEVER knowing I had a loaded dangerous weapon in it!!!:banghead::banghead::banghead:

But we do have regulations for gun licenses like we do for drivers licenses (at least in the states where I lived).
What I doubt we can regulate is common sense.

Moo

 

[sonjay]

Yeah, with good reason. Carolyn McCarthy's husband was shot to death on a subway by a stranger for no good reason!!!

And so she wants to ban barrel shrouds, which she thinks are the "shoulder thing that goes up."

I'm sorry that she lost her husband. But that doesn't give her the right to make stupid laws banning things about which she is ignorant.

If my husband was killed by a drunk driver, does that somehow make it right for me to want to ban carburetors as a result?

 

[sonjay]

I feel as Garden Lady does, since we know that we can't ban private citizens from owning guns, the least we can do is regulate them just like having a driver's license

Gun owners would have much greater freedom and lots fewer restrictions if gun ownership was regulated like driver's licenses. You must have missed my earlier post way upthread.

 

[Brightbird]

More cherry picking. Australia this time.

It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.
Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

• In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
• Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
• Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847


If there are enough cherries to pick, does it eventually stop being cherry picking and become "research"? How many cherries are needed for that, exactly?

It is also a common fantasy of pro gun people that pointing to Australian stats from the early 2000's is proof of their argument. The rate of gun homicide has been trending downward for the last decade in Australia. Even then we're only talking differences less than 1%. You have more chance of being murdered with a gun in America than you do of being murdered by any means in Australia. Declining or not, guns still kill more people in America than in countries where there is stricter gun control. That link is also spurious because their definition of sexual assault in Australia is wrong. Sexual assault includes someone grabbing your breasts on the train.

 

[LinasK]

Just had a thought on Open Carry vs. CCW. I have to agree with Nova on this one. Although with Open Carry I'd be intimidated, I'd have the choice to leave Starbucks/Walmart, etc. when I saw their gun. With CCW, I'd be lulled into a false sense of security that there were no guns in public, when in reality, I'd be in far more danger and wouldn't have that informed choice to leave the place.

 

[LinasK]

Gun owners would have much greater freedom and lots fewer restrictions if gun ownership was regulated like driver's licenses. You must have missed my earlier post way upthread.

I can't control what goes on in public, other than where I go. I can however control what happens in my household, which is GUN-FREE!

 

[sonjay]

Let me rephrase then.

More guns = more needless deaths

Repeating it endlessly still doesn't make it so.

In the absence of guns, criminals continue to assault and kill; they just do it using different weapons. Are deaths okay as long as they're not caused by guns? If you have 100 people murdered by someone wielding a hammer, vs. 100 people murdered by someone wielding a gun, are you happy with the number of murders because they're not caused by guns? Are the guns deaths needless but the hammer murders needed?

Why on earth would Australia's crime rate, and homicide rate, have gone up after they banned handguns? Or England's? Why on earth would Chicago's homicide rate have plunged after concealed carry was legalized? Why on earth would Vermont's crime rate, with its easy access to weapons, be among the lowest in the country, while D.C.'s crime rate, with its draconian gun control, be among the highest? These may be very tasty cherries, but they don't represent cherry picking; they represent large datasets, in large cities, in whole states, and in whole countries.

 

[Crimson clover]

Wal-Mart, anyone?

Here's what happens when there's no one around with a gun:

Knife attack leaves 8 hurt at store

“Nobody tried to stop him and he kept going,” Mr. Williams said.

http://enquirer.com/editions/2001/05/08/loc_kentucky_digest.html


Here's what happens when there's a person with a gun:

Gun-carrying Customer Puts End To Store Scuffle

While in the checkout line at a Wal-Mart, Sandra Suter saw a scuffle when a man lunged and cut two employees with a knife.

"I have a concealed-weapons permit," Suter, 53, said as she whipped out a .40-caliber pistol from her purse.

"Either drop the knife, or I'll shoot you," she said, holding the weapon to the man's face. She repeated her threat.

The man dropped the knife and surrendered to store security.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2000-05-25/news/0005250024_1_knife-suter-scuffle

I applaud Sandra Suter...and believe Mrs. Rutledge would have reacted in the same manner. I'd consider it an honor, and most privileged to do likewise.
Only...find me somewhere in Target!

I've been fortunate to have never experienced such circumstances (in a public OR private atmosphere) but, you never know. I'd defend without thought whether a person(s) were pro/con GUNS. I'd be curious to know IF a mind/thought might ring different if one were to ever fall on the short end of crime.

IF is a BIG word.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

The idea of people wandering about with guns strapped to them is crazy in a civilised country, I just cannot even believe that happens and that people argue that it's OK on any level is just weird. It's such a bad look. It's just unnecessary frankly, and looks like insane posturing.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I can't control what goes on in public, other than where I go. I can however control what happens in my household, which is GUN-FREE!

.....until a criminal enters your home & rest-assured it won't be gun-free any longer.

But I respect your position, L.

We all have to make our choices based on our own perceptions of risk.

 

[sonjay]

I applaud Sandra Suter...and believe Mrs. Rutledge would have reacted in the same manner. I'd consider it an honor, and most privileged to do likewise.
Only...find me somewhere in Target!

Uh..... I hate to be the one to break it to you, but people carry in Target too.

 

[SStarr33]

I can't control what goes on in public, other than where I go. I can however control what happens in my household, which is GUN-FREE!

It is gun-free until a rapist/robber/murderer comes into into it with a gun.