ID - 2 year boy accidentally shoots and kills mother in walmart in ths US

[sonjay]

Agree completely. Being prepared brings a sense of calm and confidence in the face of possible dangerous circumstances, and the unknown. Owning a gun to defend oneself and loved ones against unknown evil brings that calm and confidence for many people. Appropriate levels of preparedness are not paranoid behavior.

An example. I live 2 miles from a large nuclear reactor. We own a Geiger counter, and have automatic text and email alerts set up from online monitoring sites, as well as having other preparedness items, including potassium iodide tablets at home. If I lived hundreds or thousands of miles from a reactor, I'd label that level of preparedness a paranoid and delusional hobby. Living 2 miles from a reactor, and having preparedness items and an evacuation plan, is sensible personal responsibility, IMO.

IMO, every adult that meets eligibility requirements and wants to own firearms, and have a CCW permit, should have them.

I think it's beyond ridiculous to zip a loaded handgun into a handbag that is put in a shopping cart with a two year old. It was a horrible decision about how to carry concealed, IMO. She paid the ultimate price for that decision. Those handbags are not designed to provide any security. Conversely, they facilitate access.

I've always thought the debate that should be happening is the manner in which she chose to carry, not that she chose to carry in the first place.

I agree 100% with every word you wrote.

 

[CoolJ]

A Florida State Trooper pulled over an old 1955 Cadillac the other day for a faulty taillight. When the officer approached the car, he saw a nicely dressed little old lady behind the wheel.

The police officer asked the old lady for her license, registration, and proof of insurance; when she handed her documents to him, he was surprised to see a concealed carry permit as well.

The trooper said, "Mrs. Smith, I see you have a concealed weapon permit. Do you have a gun with you right now?"

The little old lady replied, "Oh, yes officer, I have a Smith & Wesson 38 caliber pistol right here in my bag. Do you want to see it?" And before he could reply, the old lady held out her open handbag and sure enough, he immediately recognized the distinctive snub barrel of a Smith & Wesson 38.

Then he asked her, "Do you have any other guns with you?"

The old lady said, "Well, I also have a 357 magnum in my glove compartment." She opened up the glove compartment to reveal the huge barrel of the .357.

The officer asked: "Anything else?"

To which she replied, "Why, yes, I also have a 44 magnum in my center console, and a Mossberg 500 12 gauge shotgun in the trunk."

The officer then asked, "Ma'am, may I ask you what you are so afraid of?"

The old lady looked the officer straight in the eyes and calmly answered, "Sonny, not a damn thing!"

Good one!
Cool how we can both laugh at the same joke, but for entirely different reasons.

 

[Brightbird]

It's illegal in England to carry a pocketknife with a blade over 3" long.
It's illegal in England to carry a pocketknife with a lock-back blade of any length.
It's illegal in England to sell a knife of any kind, including kitchen cutlery, to anyone under 18.
https://www.gov.uk/find-out-if-i-can-buy-or-carry-a-knife

Yet, they're still experiencing an epidemic of knife crime.

In Australia, the number of homicides remains constant, but knives are used more often as the homicide weapon of choice:
Analysis of the data indicated an increase in the use of knives as a proportion of all homicides, although the number of homicides remained relatively constant.
http://aic.gov.au/publications/current series/tandi/401-420/tandi417.html

This 15-year-old supports the gun ban, because guns have only one purpose, but then he goes on to make all the same complaints about Australia's knife laws that gun owners make about gun laws:
https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/australias-unfair-knife-laws,5860

If you read further than the first paragraph, you'd also see that rates of robbery have declined (by 42%). As has murder. Knives were used in 1% of sexual assaults. Knives were more commonly used in attempted murder. Maybe they would have been actual murder if there was a gun used. There were 90 knife murders out of 311 total in 2001, and 94 knife murders out of 261 total in 2009. So the proportion rose because the total number fell. Epidemic of knife crime huh? What a ridiculous argument. People use knives more than guns, therefore we should give them guns?

 

[K_Z]

Lol-- I forgot to mention in my example that we also own some rare earth radioactive uranium to test and calibrate the Geiger counter. We own it legally, and use and store it in accordance with all regulations. That doesn't mean we are going to build a nuclear bomb in our basement. We also make sure the kids know not to play with it or swallow it, and that it won't turn them into the Incredible Hulk.

Radiation is dangerous. Medications are dangerous. Knives are dangerous. Baseball bats can be dangerous. Pools and lakes and rivers are dangerous. Stairs are dangerous. Kitchens are full of dangers. Bookcases can topple. Electric outlets are very dangerous to kids. Cars are dangerous. Just moving among activities of daily living is dangerous for most 2 year olds. I wouldn't put a 2 yo in a car without a carseat, nor put a 2 yo in a boat without a lifejacket. A switchblade in a purse is dangerous to a 2yo who can get to it. A toddler, a shopping cart, and a conceal carry purse with a loaded gun is not a wise choice, IMO.

An ethical and pro-active way to handle this situation, IMO, is with an active education campaign, IMO-- spear headed by the purse manufacturers and gun safety groups. Discourage conceal carry in remote-carry zipper purses among those with CCW permits who are habitually around children. Make sure everyone, CCW and non-CCW, and non-gun owners, understand that zipper compartment purses and other handbag, briefcase, and portfolio carriers are not designed to be safety devices or storage devices for weapons. That's the good that I wish would come out of this tragic situation.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Are you aware that background checks are conducted at gun shows? Contrary to the popular myth, all background-check laws apply exactly the same at gun shows as they do elsewhere.

There will never be national registration of guns.

There are many, many regulations on the sale of guns.

There is much misinformation out there about guns.

In California a law abiding citizen cannot directly sell a gun to another person. You have to go thru a licensed firearm dealer with all of the waiting periods and background checks.

 

[sonjay]

If you read further than the first paragraph, you'd also see that rates of robbery have declined (by 42%). As has murder. Knives were used in 1% of sexual assaults. Knives were more commonly used in attempted murder. Maybe they would have been actual murder if there was a gun used. There were 90 knife murders out of 311 total in 2001, and 94 knife murders out of 261 total in 2009. So the proportion rose because the total number fell.

Quoting from a report published by your very own government:
"an increase in the use of knives as a proportion of all homicides, although the number of homicides remained relatively constant."

As I said upthread, ban guns, and all it does is shift the weapon of choice to something else.

Epidemic of knife crime huh? What a ridiculous argument. People use knives more than guns, therefore we should give them guns?

What a ridiculous mischaracterization. I've never said anything even remotely close to that.

 

[sonjay]

In California a law abiding citizen cannot directly sell a gun to another person. You have to go thru a licensed firearm dealer with all of the waiting periods and background checks.

In Washington state, a museum just had to gut its WWII display by removing all of its WWII-era weapons, on loan from private collectors. Otherwise it would be in violation of the state's new universal background check law.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ngton-gun-law-museum-removes-rifles/19270077/

It's a real shame. Not only are people unaware of the extent of existing regulations already governing the sale, ownership and use of guns, but the laws get so broadly written that key pieces of history are lost.

 

[sonjay]

bbm Guess who is the first one shot.

Or stabbed, or beheaded, or skull caved in with a hammer.

Because if Nova has a right to know who is carrying concealed, all the thugs will know too.

 

[Brightbird]

Quoting from a report published by your very own government:
"an increase in the use of knives as a proportion of all homicides, although the number of homicides remained relatively constant."

As I said upthread, ban guns, and all it does is shift the weapon of choice to something else.



What a ridiculous mischaracterization. I've never said anything even remotely close to that.

From your link -

The use of knives in murder has ranged from 69 to 95 per year, with 2009 the second highest on record; this demonstrates a slight increase in use, especially given that the number of murders fell from 311 to 261 during this period (ABS 2010).

 

[sonjay]

From your link -

The use of knives in murder has ranged from 69 to 95 per year, with 2009 the second highest on record; this demonstrates a slight increase in use, especially given that the number of murders fell from 311 to 261 during this period (ABS 2010).

So.... even while overall murder rates are falling, the use of knives in murder is increasing.

As I said, banning guns merely shifts the weapon of choice to something else.

 

[MsFacetious]

In California a law abiding citizen cannot directly sell a gun to another person. You have to go thru a licensed firearm dealer with all of the waiting periods and background checks.

You can in Utah (or could a couple years ago.) My Dad bought one from an off duty cop in a parking lot. :twocents:

 

[sonjay]

You can in Utah (or could a couple years ago.) My Dad bought one from an off duty cop in a parking lot. :twocents:

You can in Florida, too. I sold one to a firearm instructor in a parking lot.

As an aside, journalist Emily Miller is still waiting for approval from the D.C. police chief for her carry permit. From her FB page:
I'm watching this horrifying terrorist attack against journalists in Paris by Muslim fundamentalist while I still wait for DC police Chief Cathy Lanier to respond to my application for a gun carry permit. I put a FBI warning of a terrorist threat against journalists as one "special danger" in my application.

https://www.facebook.com/EmilyMillerDC?fref=nf

People think that it's so easy to buy guns or get carry permits. They say we "need regulations" as if there are none.

Emily's tale of her long journey to becoming a legal gun owner in D.C. is .... well, frustrating and maddening for those of us who believe people have an innate, human right to self-defense. And that long journey was only to be allowed to buy a gun. As for actually being allowed to carry it .... to be able to defend herself outside her home.... that journey is still going on.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2011/oct/5/miller-emily-gets-her-gun/

How many of the criminals in D.C. do you think go through the process Emily has gone through?

 

[MsFacetious]

Most of the people I know just don't buy from dealers so they can avoid all the paperwork.
They just buy used from other people so their names are not "on the list."
They are law abiding citizens, they just don't want their name on a list of gun owners. :dunno:

 

[MsFacetious]

For the same reason they chose not to get their CC permit. :twocents:

 

[Confusion]

From my POV, "thugs" on the streets aren't likely to be affected a whole lot by any changes; if someone wants to commit a murder, he's probably going to find a way to do it even without access to his weapon of choice. I see it helping more with accidental shootings and spontaneous (in a fit of anger) murders. I know people can trip on the sidewalk, hit their heads and die, so not all accidents are ever likely to be eliminated. On the other hand, I don't remember ever hearing about someone removing his belt at night and accidentally strangling someone with it, going to put a knife in a drawer and accidentally stabbing a child walking through the door across the room, putting a hammer into a tool box and accidentally crushing someone's skull with it, etc.

The same is true for spur of the moment killings. If 2 people are arguing, and one pulls out a knife, a person with a knife is much easier to outrun and escape from than a bullet. A couple is arguing and he gets mad and takes off his belt or tie to strangle her, I believe she has a better chance of escaping than if he had a gun. In fact, I think many people who do shoot someone in the heat of anger would possibly punch a hole in the wall, break something, or possibly punch the other person once or twice if no gun had been right there. Obviously, others will still commit murder since not all unplanned murders are committed with a firearm now. I think the biggest problem is that you don't always know who might have a lapse in judgment or self-control until it's too late.

MOO

 

[Deleted member 39678]

You can in Utah (or could a couple years ago.) My Dad bought one from an off duty cop in a parking lot. :twocents:

California politicians think gun laws that restrict law abiding citizens make things safer. It didn't work for a local woman yesterday.

Oakland man jailed in fatal shooting of woman outside El Dorado Hills pub

A woman was shot and killed outside an El Dorado Hills bar and restaurant early Wednesday by a robber who then fled in her vehicle and crashed a few miles away from the scene.

The suspect, Anderson Swift, 41, of Oakland, was arrested after the crash, according to the El Dorado County Sheriff’s department. Anderson was booked into the El Dorado County Jail on charges of murder, being a felon in possession of a firearm, carjacking and theft of a motor vehicle in the incident. He is currently being held without bail, according to the department.

Background checks and waiting periods didn't help this lady. They ran when confronted by the armed felon and one of them was shot dead. Maybe if one or both of the women were armed with a gun this tragedy could have been avoided.

http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article5553672.html

 

[Brightbird]

So.... even while overall murder rates are falling, the use of knives in murder is increasing.

As I said, banning guns merely shifts the weapon of choice to something else.

An increase of 4 knife murders? I would say 90 to 94 is rather stable. It is the proportion of knife murders that increased. I could see your point if the murder rate remained stable. But it's decreased, meaning that people aren't simply finding a different weapon. There are actually less murders occurring.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

From the same article that I posted above a man thought that he moved to a safer area.

Don Dean, a local construction project manager, said he had just dropped off his kids at school and heard that a woman had been killed in the 36 Handles parking lot.

“We moved here from the Bay Area to get away from this stuff,” Dean said. “We all thought we were in a (safe) bubble, an enclave. But evidently we’re not.”

Thugs can travel to affluent areas like El Dorado Hills and shoot innocent people. Living in a generally safe or low crime area is not protection from violent attack. JMO.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article5553672.html#storylink=cpy

 

[sonjay]

An increase of 4 knife murders? I would say 90 to 94 is rather stable. It is the proportion of knife murders that increased. I could see your point if the murder rate remained stable. But it's decreased, meaning that people aren't simply finding a different weapon. There are actually less murders occurring.

Right, the proportion of knife murders is increasing. As murderers shift their weapon of choice from gun to knife.

As far as the homicide rate decreasing.... take a look and tell us when that started decreasing. I don't recall the exact year, but it was well before the gun ban was passed. The rate of decrease has not accelerated since the gun ban was passed. And further, the U.S. has seen a greater decrease in homicide rates during the same period of time -- without a gun ban.

So.... I can't figure out, exactly, what anyone thinks Australia's gun ban has accomplished. Same amount of murder that you'd have had without the gun ban. More of the dead people died from knives rather than guns... but is that any sort of benefit, really?

 

[Brightbird]

Right, the proportion of knife murders is increasing. As murderers shift their weapon of choice from gun to knife.

As far as the homicide rate decreasing.... take a look and tell us when that started decreasing. I don't recall the exact year, but it was well before the gun ban was passed. The rate of decrease has not accelerated since the gun ban was passed. And further, the U.S. has seen a greater decrease in homicide rates during the same period of time -- without a gun ban.

So.... I can't figure out, exactly, what anyone thinks Australia's gun ban has accomplished. Same amount of murder that you'd have had without the gun ban. More of the dead people died from knives rather than guns... but is that any sort of benefit, really?

If the actual number has stayed stable, another way of interpreting the data is that knife murderers have kept on killing with knives at the same rate while other murderers are killing less and not switching to knives. This is getting ridiculous. We'll have to agree to disagree. To be honest, I don't think gun laws were designed to stop murder overall. They were designed to stop mass shootings like Hoddle Street and Port Arthur, and so far it's worked.