ID - 2 year boy accidentally shoots and kills mother in walmart in ths US

[sonjay]

If the actual number has stayed stable, another way of interpreting the data is that knife murderers have kept on killing with knives at the same rate while other murderers are killing less and not switching to knives. This is getting ridiculous. We'll have to agree to disagree. To be honest, I don't think gun laws were designed to stop murder overall. They were designed to stop mass shootings like Hoddle Street and Port Arthur, and so far it's worked.

Hmmm.... New Zealand's policy of not banning guns is working just as well as Australia's gun ban at preventing mass shootings.

But of course, New Zealand hasn't had any coffee shops seized by terrorists, either, so maybe New Zealand's policy is working better.

Really.... it's so obvious. Guns do not cause homicide, nor mass shootings, nor violent crime of any type.

Anyone who wishes not to have a gun because they're afraid of guns, should just go ahead and not have a gun. But there's no sense in trying blame a personal fear of an inanimate object on crime or violence. The inanimate object is not responsible for crime or violence. And personal fears are nothing on which laws and public policy should be based.

"I don't want to have a gun because I'm afraid of them" is a perfectly valid reason to not have a gun.

"I don't want to have a gun, and I don't want anyone else to have a gun, because they cause murder and other crimes" is based on misperceptions and untruths.

"Anyone who carries a gun or who keeps a gun in their home is paranoid and living in fear" is projection at its worst.

 

[Nova]

bbm Guess who is the first one shot.

If that's true, then the marvelous training given to private gun owners isn't very effective. Concealing one's weapon doesn't make it easier to access.

If one can't outdraw the average criminal, maybe it's better not to carry at all.

 

[Nova]

In some states open carry is illegal (even Texas).

Many folks do NOT want to open carry because it could make them a target for gun theft; thugs often carry cheap low end firearms, CCW holders usually have much nicer weapons. You can be sure if thugs saw someone carrying a $600-$800 handgun they would be very tempted to steal/rob for it.

Criminals always have an advantage over victims because THEY are the ones that target, plan and initiate. The victim is at a disadvantage because they have to think fast enough to react to a sudden threat they didn't see coming. Open carry takes away the small advantage armed victims have. The cop killings are a good example, if criminals KNOW the cops are armed they make sure the police don't even have a chance to protect themselves.

Thank you, Sonya, for your thoughtful replies.

 

[Nova]

sbm bbm

Respectfully, not understanding your stmt: you don't have the right to distance yourself?
Are you saying b/c of CCW law, you are not able to see that a shopper's gun in purse (or other ppl w gun in holster)
and therefore you do not detect the gun, so cannot distance yourself.
Or maybe saying something else?

I find virtually all your posts are insightful and literate so think I'm missing something. Nova or anyone? Thx in adv.

No problem. I'm pointing out that the person carrying a concealed weapon has the right to protect himself with a lethal instrument, but I apparently don't have a right to the information that would allow me to make an informed decision as to whether I am safe in his presence.

I know plenty of people I wouldn't trust to handle a gun near me.

Several posters here believe they have a right to defend themselves. To some extent I agree. Yet those same posters see no problem with denying me the same right (unless I am willing to carry my own gun and shoot toddlers).

 

[Nova]

Or stabbed, or beheaded, or skull caved in with a hammer.

Because if Nova has a right to know who is carrying concealed, all the thugs will know too.

As I implied to Ellie May, if you can't get the drop on someone carrying a knife, sword or hammer, I have doubts as to the effectiveness of CCW.

 

[Elley Mae]

If that's true, then the marvelous training given to private gun owners isn't very effective. Concealing one's weapon doesn't make it easier to access.

If one can't outdraw the average criminal, maybe it's better not to carry at all.

None of this makes sense. Just know that the bad guy does not need to know who is carrying and neither does the general public, that's why it's called conceal carry.

 

[sonjay]

As I implied to Ellie May, if you can't get the drop on someone carrying a knife, sword or hammer, I have doubts as to the effectiveness of CCW.

CCW carriers are walking around minding their own business - shopping, fueling up the car, whatever they happen to be doing. CCW'ers tend to be more alert to their surroundings than the general public, but not all of them, and not 100% of the time.

Conversely, the bad guys are not walking around minding their own business while carrying a knife, sword or hammer in the open while wearing a sign that says "I'm a bad guy." They're sneaky and furtive, and they give no overt, actionable sign that they're bad guys until they're ready to act.

They see a good guy with a gun in the place they're about to shoot up or rob, they'll make sure they get that guy first, and before he even sees them or is aware of their presence.

Not to mention, CCW'ers do not and are not legally permitted to "get the drop" on someone, in the sense that you're using it. We can't just see someone and say to our ourselves, "he's a bad guy" and then shoot him. It doesn't work like that.

It seems that you have a vision of CCW'ers as some sort of vigilantes, walking around looking for bad guys to shoot. We're not. We're just normal people doing the same normal everyday things that everyone does.

People use guns to defend themselves somewhere between 100,00 times and 3 million times per year. Many of those incidents take place out in public and involve CCW'ers. There's no denying that CCW can be an effective tool for self-defense. Regardless of the erroneous misconceptions people have about it.

 

[sonjay]

No problem. I'm pointing out that the person carrying a concealed weapon has the right to protect himself with a lethal instrument, but I apparently don't have a right to the information that would allow me to make an informed decision as to whether I am safe in his presence.

I sense a lot of fear here about people who legally carry concealed weapons.

First, you should know that people who legally carry concealed weapons have a lower crime rate than the population in general. You have more to fear from those who aren't carrying. The legal gun owner who is legally carrying his concealed weapon in Wal-Mart has no intention whatsoever of harming you.

Second, you know that the rate of unintentional firearm injuries caused by people who CCW is vanishingly small. Despite the nationwide drumbeat of headlines any time it happens, it actually happens very very rarely.

Third, the people who are illegally carrying a concealed weapon are the ones you really should worry about. And they're not about to obey any law that requires open carry, or the wearing of any sign or badge identifying them as concealed weapon carriers.

If legal concealed carry bothers you so much, you should probably start contacting your state legislators. Not long ago, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that California may not ban both concealed carry and open carry. The state legislature promptly banned open carry. That leaves concealed carry as the only option on the table in California. Oh, and BTW, the legislature exempted themselves from the gun rules they imposed on their subjects. I wonder why they would do that?

 

[daisy7]

Are you aware that background checks are conducted at gun shows? Contrary to the popular myth, all background-check laws apply exactly the same at gun shows as they do elsewhere.

There will never be national registration of guns.

There are many, many regulations on the sale of guns.

There is much misinformation out there about guns.

Respectfully, BBM. I'm not sure where you are getting your info, but it is not correct.

Gun Shows by State

A total of 11 states require background checks for at least some gun purchases at gun shows. Seven of those states require background checks for all gun purchases, while four states require background checks for only handgun purchases.

The seven states requiring background checks for all purchases include:

California
Colorado
Connecticut
Illinois
New York
Oregon
Rhode Island

The four states requiring background checks for only handgun purchases include:

Hawaii
Maryland
New Jersey
Pennsylvania

In Florida, private firearms purchases are subject to background checks in some jurisdictions but not across the entire state. There are no laws regulating private firearms sales at gun shows in the remaining 33 states.

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncontrol/a/Gun-Shows.htm

 

[daisy7]

In some states open carry is illegal (even Texas).

Many folks do NOT want to open carry because it could make them a target for gun theft; thugs often carry cheap low end firearms, CCW holders usually have much nicer weapons. You can be sure if thugs saw someone carrying a $600-$800 handgun they would be very tempted to steal/rob for it.

Criminals always have an advantage over victims because THEY are the ones that target, plan and initiate. The victim is at a disadvantage because they have to think fast enough to react to a sudden threat they didn't see coming. Open carry takes away the small advantage armed victims have. The cop killings are a good example, if criminals KNOW the cops are armed they make sure the police don't even have a chance to protect themselves.

Open carry in TX of handguns is illegal, but the law does not apply to rifles and shotguns

Q: Can I Open Carry in Texas (in Public)?

A: You can openly carry rifles and shotguns, but not handguns. A CHL is not needed to do this. However, you must do so in a manner not "calculated" to cause alarm; meaning you are carrying the rifle to purposely intimidate or scare people.

http://www.texasgunlaws.org/texas-open-carry.htm

No background check required. That's why you have the "interesting people" of Texas Open Carry toting around their rifles everywhere they go in protest about not being able to open carry a handgun. You know it's a poor tactic when the NRA tries to distance itself from you.

The National Rifle Association condemned the "scary" actions of open carry activists in Texas, including some who were shown in a video harassing a Marine veteran on Memorial Day.

The NRA also addressed recent no-gun policies put in place by several restaurants including Chipotle, which said it created the rule because "the display of firearms in our restaurants has now created an environment that is potentially intimidating or uncomfortable for many of our customers."

In a May 30 statement, the NRA applauded Texans for the "robust gun culture" in the Lone Star State, but said recent public showings of gun support "crossed the line" and were "downright weird" (emphasis NRA's).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/02/nra-open-carry-activists_n_5433648.html

No surprise (to me) that they later retracted their statement after backlash. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/03/nra-open-carry-protest_n_5441189.html

It's pretty scary that one of Open Carry Texas' activists murdered her husband and stepdaughter last month. Are these really the type of peeps we want to be armed in public?

ARLINGTON — Police say a woman has been charged with capital murder in the shooting deaths of her husband and step-daughter in the 2500 block of Edinburgh Street.

A search warrant affidavit states Veronica Dunnachie, 35, shot her husband, Russ Dunnachie, as well as his adult daughter Kimberly Wednesday afternoon. She then spoke with a friend on the phone who convinced her to drive to a mental health facility 11 miles away, Millwood Hospital, on North Cooper Street. That's where police arrested her without incident.

(snip)

Dunnachie's Facebook page is filled with photos of her participating in Open Carry firearm activities in the Arlington area. There is also this chilling but unattributed quote featured as one of her profile pictures:

"Sometimes removing some people out of your life makes room for better people."

http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/crime/2014/12/10/two-found-dead-in-arlington-home/20215009/

 

[Sonya610]

Interesting map showing right to carry states from 1986 to today.

 

[daisy7]

I sense a lot of fear here about people who legally carry concealed weapons.

First, you should know that people who legally carry concealed weapons have a lower crime rate than the population in general. You have more to fear from those who aren't carrying. The legal gun owner who is legally carrying his concealed weapon in Wal-Mart has no intention whatsoever of harming you.

Second, you know that the rate of unintentional firearm injuries caused by people who CCW is vanishingly small. Despite the nationwide drumbeat of headlines any time it happens, it actually happens very very rarely.

Third, the people who are illegally carrying a concealed weapon are the ones you really should worry about. And they're not about to obey any law that requires open carry, or the wearing of any sign or badge identifying them as concealed weapon carriers.

If legal concealed carry bothers you so much, you should probably start contacting your state legislators. Not long ago, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that California may not ban both concealed carry and open carry. The state legislature promptly banned open carry. That leaves concealed carry as the only option on the table in California. Oh, and BTW, the legislature exempted themselves from the gun rules they imposed on their subjects. I wonder why they would do that?

BBM. As a person who closely followed the cases of the murders of Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis, I disagree.

 

[Gardenlady]

BBM. As a person who closely followed the cases of the murders of Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis, I disagree.

Or the guy who shot the dad in the movie theater.

Like Zimmerman, and Davi's's killer (his name escapes me at the moment), some of these nuts who are carrying just seem to be spoiling for a fight.

 

[daisy7]

Or the guy who shot the dad in the movie theater.

Like Zimmerman, and Davi's's killer (his name escapes me at the moment), some of these nuts who are carrying just seem to be spoiling for a fight.

Michael Dunn

 

[daisy7]

Or the guy who shot the dad in the movie theater.

Like Zimmerman, and Davi's's killer (his name escapes me at the moment), some of these nuts who are carrying just seem to be spoiling for a fight.

All 3 cases in our state. Welcome to FL!!

 

[Brightbird]

BBM. As a person who closely followed the cases of the murders of Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis, I disagree.

Exactly. The whole good guy vs. bad guy argument is way too simplistic.

 

[wendiesan]

No further news on the toddler's family?

 

[TrackerSam]

If that's true, then the marvelous training given to private gun owners isn't very effective. Concealing one's weapon doesn't make it easier to access.

If one can't outdraw the average criminal, maybe it's better not to carry at all.

I'd rather get off a late shot than not be able to shoot at all. The concealed gun poses no threat. There no advantage at all to being disarmed when confronted by a criminal, so I hardly think it's better. How could that be better? <modsnip>

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I think people act as if this problem cannot get better, and by problem I mean the number of guns in America. If criminals didn't have so many weapons, then ordinary folk wouldn't feel the need to have one handy to defend themselves either. Many of these legally held weapons end up on the street via theft and resales exacerbating the problem, and the easy ability for Americans to purchase guns mean those who wish to use them illegally have an easy time getting hold of them. Do pro gun advocates believe this problem can only get worse and have they given up on a more civilised America where one doesn't feel the need to carry 'just in case' or in reality is that not the goal at all, and simply that guns are enjoyable to possess. Do they have intrinsic value in themselves, is there a love of the weaponry that goes way beyond self-defense?

Is the truth that this woman would have carried whether she felt there was an actual threat or not, because it simply made her FEEL GOOD to have a weapon on her, just like it FEELS GOOD when I wear a pair of killer heels?

 

[melissasmom]

I'd rather get off a late shot than not be able to shoot at all. The concealed gun poses no threat. There no advantage at all to being disarmed when confronted by a criminal, so I hardly think it's better. How could that be better? You make me laugh sometimes.

That is rather an inane statement. I mean, really? If you are carrying a gun for "protection" against someone who may assault or kill you, what is the point of getting off a late shot? By the time you get to your weapon you will already be dead or disabled. And more than likely that person is going to take your gun when they get done assaulting you, so you won't have any weapon to get off that "late shot".

And if someone robs you and then runs away, are you going to shoot them in the back?