ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 71

[layer]

Thanks for this. If I’m reading pg. 15 correctly, it discusses his phone location on Nov 14. The murders occurred on Nov 13, and pages 13 and 14 cover the phone and Elantra movements.

I believe the idea is that this statement could very well create reasonable doubt:

Investigators found that the 8458 Phone did connect to a cell phone tower that provides
service to Moscow on November l4, 2022, but investigators do not believe tbe 8458 Phone was
in Moscow on that date.

It could make one wonder how any of the cell tower connections can be trusted to accurately provide location data.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I believe the idea is that this statement could very well create reasonable doubt:

Investigators found that the 8458 Phone did connect to a cell phone tower that provides
service to Moscow on November l4, 2022, but investigators do not believe tbe 8458 Phone was
in Moscow on that date.

It could make one wonder how any of the cell tower connections can be trusted to accurately provide location data.

True. They will need expert cell phone tech witnesses at trial. But that doesn’t worry me. Cell tracking technology was instrumental in putting Patrick Frazee and Krystal Kenney behind bars in the Kelsey Berreth case.

How cell phone analysis helped convict Patrick Frazee of murder

In a case lacking physical evidence of a crime, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) relied on digital evidence to show something happened to Kelsey Berreth.

www.koaa.com

 

[schooling]

It could make one wonder how any of the cell tower connections can be trusted to accurately provide location data.

I think cell phone triangulation evidence is eventually going to go the way of non-dna hair and bite analysis. In which they'll only be admissible as supporting evidence and on a case by case basis.

I don't think we're there yet. But I think LE is well aware of what's currently going on within the court system (Adnan Syed and other challenges to triangulation data) hence their inclusion of video evidence and the cell data in support of it.

Edit: also worth noting that Moscow and Pullman are not covered by many towers. Particularly in the stretch that separates the two places. Which is actually going to make the evidence more reliable than it would be in a more urban settings. IMO

 

[ktm44]

I believe the idea is that this statement could very well create reasonable doubt:

Investigators found that the 8458 Phone did connect to a cell phone tower that provides
service to Moscow on November l4, 2022, but investigators do not believe tbe 8458 Phone was
in Moscow on that date.

It could make one wonder how any of the cell tower connections can be trusted to accurately provide location data.

Wouldn't LE have experts to present the cell tower information? If so, they very likely have supporting information to clarify that piece of information.

This comes from the PCA and in my opinion it was not critical to expand upon at the time the PCA was prepared but it doesn't mean there isn't more information to be used at a trial.

 

[Moriarty]

DBM (I just noted that this was shared from another source in the early hours this morning...sorry, that's the problem of trying to do this from a phone while commuting!)

 

[Moriarty]

I'm assuming most of you have seen this, but if not..(I beleive The Independent is an acceptable media source. If not, let me know and I'll remove this).

Police have ‘no record’ of whether Bryan Kohberger was offered internship position

The Independent filed a public records request with the Pullman Police Department earlier this year

www.independent.co.uk

I'm not a psychological expert, but I wonder if this is the sort of stressor that might push someone with certain tendencies over the edge...

MOO

 

[Boxer]

I think cell phone triangulation evidence is eventually going to go the way of non-dna hair and bite analysis. In which they'll only be admissible as supporting evidence and on a case by case basis.

I don't think we're there yet. But I think LE is well aware of what's currently going on within the court system (Adnan Syed and other challenges to triangulation data) hence their inclusion of video evidence and the cell data in support of it.

Edit: also worth noting that Moscow and Pullman are not covered by many towers. Particularly in the stretch that separates the two places. Which is actually going to make the evidence more reliable than it would be in a more urban settings. IMO

Right the towers are about 7 miles apart.

I'm not a psychological expert, but I wonder if this is the sort of stressor that might push someone with certain tendencies over the edge...

MOO

Wonder who shared this disciplinary action from WSU HR.
Confidential, so did the defense share it to get it out there?

 

[ktm44]

I'm not a psychological expert, but I wonder if this is the sort of stressor that might push someone with certain tendencies over the edge...

MOO

In my opinion, stressors that send people over the edge are often more complex but I could see how the public debate over his marking style and firing (if both events occurred) would definately cause some resentment.

There have been many discussons regarding the house vs individual(s) targeted and if he truly was grading women differently or had acted inappropriately toward them, I could see BK developing a resentment toward college aged women thus targeting the house.

The only problem is that we don't have really credible information on either event so at this point, I would think it is a theory that has potential but I would need verification, which is likely to come out at trial.

 

[10ofRods]

Exactly...

Also there is no proof that we know, of that the sheath was indeed a "piece of the murder weapon"

What follows is my opinion.

It is very reasonable to infer that if 4 people are stabbed to death with a 7" blade the size and shape of a Ka-Bar knife on a certain night in November, that the sheath of a 7" Ka-Bar knife that appears next to one of the bodies is a covering (use-part) of the knife.

I also believe that the autopsies (redacted) show the size, shape and perhaps metallurgical composition of said knife, which matches a Ka-Bar, as I believe LE and medical examiners are thorough and intelligent people. If the autopsies said it was a 10" bayonet, there would have been no arrest (IMO). I also believe that the surviving roommates and all the various family members have been interviewed and that all have said that no one in that house was into knives, owned a knife and, I would wager, none of the people who knew the four had ever heard of a Ka-Bar, offensive knife use, etc.

Of course, I also believe that by now they have his entire Google (or other) search history on both phone and computer and Fire stick, and more importantly, the GPS from the phone/apps on phone, because I also believe he turned his phone back on as he fled south, because he couldn't remember the several turns he'd have to make to get into Genesee and then back to Pullman. He used a map app on his phone, IMO.

The psychology of the crime is a leading dynamic that cannot be ignored and apart from physical evidence, juries are very persuaded (using their own notions of human behavior) by connecting the dots. We have a man whose neighbors say he was active in the middle of the night. A boxer, who has experience landing blows precisely on the torso/upper body of a human. A criminology student who has studied serial killing and who meets the general description given by an eyewitness (and I would wager, wears the shoe size of that latent print). There are other footprints in the house, I'm sure, because no one levitates as they move around. These smaller details are how humans knit together an explanation of the past, whether in crime or history.

And I believe that the amount that will be presented at Preliminary is going to be tremendous, as they do have GPS by now, along with potential further DNA evidence of the perp on the bodies of the four dead students. He slipped up with the sheath, he slipped up elsewhere (IMO) because he is a human. GPS is more accurate than cell phone data (and that has surely been sent to advanced analysis - mentioned by a WSer who is thoroughly versed in triangulation. There are more advanced methods for studying pings, especially when there are multiple pings from various towers. The towers in Moscow are owned by several different entities, so not all the data might have been available for these advanced methods in December. WIth these advanced methods, a phone can be pinpointed much more precisely.

Then, of course, there are also the behavioral triggers and post-murder behaviors of the defendant to discover and present at trial. It's a fairly complete package. At any rate, I believe the Judge did the right thing in signing the arrest warrant. The fact that BK waived his right to a speedy trial (and to a preliminary within 10 days, in which he could have exonerated himself if he had any sort of alibi or response to the already-presented facts) is also telling, In my whole history of studying criminal behavior, I've never seen an innocent person who didn't literally shout, state loudly, make a record of, insist upon, talk to the press about - their innocence. Often, their attorney is standing right next to them while they do this. There are very few of these cases, and far more unsolved murders due to the high bar for evidence required by courts (in most of the US) for arrest in the first place.

I also know that when a PCA is presented by a DA to a Judge, that DA is not mute. The two of them talk and way more information is exchanged, with the goal of paring down the PCA to a reasonable minimum of factual evidence, because it's not right to share tons of details with the public before the defendant and lawyer have a chance to review the evidence and present their responses at the Prelim. There's almost always an avalanche of additional evidence not included. And, since I have been privileged to be an observer in some interesting cases, it's also the case that not all evidence (however damning) makes it into the trial.

For example, evidence of the human suffering of the dying victims is often eliminated or downplayed at the trial and reduced merely to facts from the autopsy about cause and manner of death, rather than the excruciating physiological processes. That's because many courts consider such horrific information to be unnecessary and highly damaging both to the victims' families and friends, but to the jury as well. And to many of the rest of us. Yet, judges and attorneys get down into this detail quite often, and judges are allowed to talk to attorneys in chambers.

IMO.

 

[Moriarty]

In my opinion, stressors that send people over the edge are often more complex but I could see how the public debate over his marking style and firing (if both events occurred) would definately cause some resentment.

I agree. However, <modsnip: Please don't reference specific conditions that are not diagnosed> add in an underlying low self-esteem or fear of rejection, and a repudiation or questioning of your abilities by an academic superior and a threat to your position might come as a real blow. From many academic sources on serial and thrill killers, challenges to the killer's authority or sense of self can play a serious role in pushing them from fantasizing to acting out.

I can only imagine that scene when the prof had the undergrads confront BK in class about his harsh marking must have been humiliating to someone who seems to have felt superior in knowledge and ability.

MOO of course.

 

[Nova]

I'm not a psychological expert, but I wonder if this is the sort of stressor that might push someone with certain tendencies over the edge...

MOO

I was a TA and later supervised TAs at a different Pac-12 university: TAships among PhD students were highly coveted and covered full tuition and health insurance, as well as very moderate living costs, depending on the hours of work required. (The most allowed was 50% time, or 20 hours per week. That was in addition to the classes in which one was a student.)

To most grad students (outside STEM fields where private corporations provide large subsidies in the form of RAships), a TAship was basically an entire year's income and meant the difference between staying in school or not. Losing his job--and having to tell his parents--must have been a very big deal, indeed, to BK, if his family's financial situation was as has been depicted in the media. As an out-of-state student, having his tuition covered would have been especially important.

Of course, he wasn't actually fired until a month after the murders, but the way academia works, I'm sure he saw the handwriting on the wall weeks before he was formally dismissed from his job.

Note: in the UC system, there is a job called a "Reader" who merely grades papers, but doesn't conduct independent small-group classes. I don't necessarily trust the MSM to understand the difference. I only served as a reader for a term or two, but I found it a silly distinction, since I couldn't fairly grade papers unless I also attended the course's lectures and other types of class meetings. IIRC, being a reader paid so much per hour, but didn't cover tuition, insurance, etc. It's still difficult--and publicly humiliating and therefore stressful--to be fired from a reader position, but perhaps not quite as costly as losing one's TAship.

 

[Nova]

Right the towers are about 7 miles apart.

Wonder who shared this disciplinary action from WSU HR.
Confidential, so did the defense share it to get it out there?

Highly confidential, but academia is a gossip's gold mine, IME.

 

[Boxer]

Highly confidential, but academia is a gossip's gold mine, IME.

MOO it had to come from come from HR, MPD/DA or BK/defense.
These leaks are terrible really. So unprofessional. Wonder if the info was sold to a reporter.

 

[SMK777]

I'm not a psychological expert, but I wonder if this is the sort of stressor that might push someone with certain tendencies over the edge...

MOO

Yes, definitely the catalyst, IMO.

 

[Nova]

MOO it had to come from come from HR, MPD/DA or BK/defense.
These leaks are terrible really. So unprofessional. Wonder if the info was sold to a reporter.

I'm sure the disciplinary action included those you name, but also a Dean of some kind, the professor who taught the course, the professor who taught whatever courses BK was to cover after the holiday break (if different), and several others in his department (Department Chair, Program Chair, secretaries, etc.).

Then somebody had to be hired to replace BK in the now current term or his work had to be redistributed among other TAs, which would almost certainly mean the entire team was able to figure out what happened, as well as, by now, all 150 kids in the class! (Of course they've all heard of his arrest, so losing his job may not be news by comparison.)

The closest comparison in my own experience would be three of my students who were caught cheating by my TA. Once I turned the evidence over to the Undergraduate Chair, the entire matter became confidential, even excluding the TA and I from knowing what punishments, if any, were meted out. But I heard, nonetheless, and without asking.

 

[10ofRods]

I'm not a psychological expert, but I wonder if this is the sort of stressor that might push someone with certain tendencies over the edge...

MOO

To me, as a former college administrator and 40 year employee of a college, it says very plainly that the person was already over the edge. Colleges are very slow to take this sort of action and in Washington, it takes several layers of administration action (usually including a review by the relevant Board of Trustees, which will hear such matters in closed session).

I am privy to a recent firing of a high ranking college employee, whose treatment was precisely like anyone else's. Once the termination was completed, the college was legally able to share the fact that the person had been fired (and indeed, shared the way of it, just as in this case - in the case I'm familiar with, it was sexual harassment and gender discrimination, with an emphasis on the sexual harassment).

Once a termination occurs, HR is no longer involved, and the Board of Trustees and the Chancellor of the college are under no obligation to protect former employees fired for cause.

IME and IMO. At any rate, the behaviors have to be fairly egregious and I believe that was the case with BK - especially given how the professor for whom he was TA-ing handled his problems in an unusual manner. It's the manner someone might use if 1) afraid that the TA in question might go off on or harm a complaining student; and/or 2) afraid that the TA in question might harm someone if they approached him on the individual level. It's a really difficult situation, but Ed Code in Washington allows a professor to skip an individual conference with a difficult student (and BK was, after all, a student). The problem is always what to do while the person's case goes through HR. I would assume the prof had already filed the case with HR before taking action against BK in the classroom. I would also assume the prof had the dean's assistance in doing this and by the time the group "confrontation" took place, the prof may well have been given direct advice by HR. If the class has any degree of study of psychology (I don't know the subject where this took place, I'm assuming something like Criminology 101), then it's not unusual to **try** to work a solution that is within the bounds of the class (so if the class was discussing psychological and group dynamics, it would make sense to attempt to use those things, however clumsily, to solve the scary problem).

IME, no one reports a student worker to HR unless they are scared. If the prof was additionally taking personal days off to avoid the student, HR will give fairly stern advice (they are HR and they know the law). But the pieces are falling into place. BK was not cut out to be a TA (or a criminology student) and crashed/burned rapidly when made to attend regular college classes and, more importantly, to interact as a leader with near-peers.

IMO. IME.

No one has said the knife was a Kabar only that it was similar to a Kabar and that even the ME can only describe the knife (length, width, serrated or not, with or without quillon, etc) but not determine the brand name.

So, forensic radiology of knife wounds isn't a thing? And no samples of metal were taken from the bodies? It's entirely possible that that's true. But it's also possible that it's not true. U of Washington is one of the leaders in forensic radiology, wherein an MRI machine is used on the deceased to locate metal fragments of bullets or, yes, even atoms of knife metal.

It's possible it wasn't done in this case. But if it was and it's a Ka-Bar knife, it's my understanding that it has a proprietary 'recipe" for its blades. You may well be right that this wasn't done, but as a member of Team Pollyanna, I am going to hold out hope that it was. It would be spectacular thing for the U of Washington and its team.

First pioneered by forensic dentistry (and therefore focused on the head and teeth), these techniques are becoming more widely used. In the article below, either search for "knife" or go to "other uses of forensic radiology" section. It's the only freely available article I could find to post, but there are many others and some are quite specific to the question of knife blade or needle components found only by MRI or other sophisticated, detailed means.

Journal of Indian Academy of Oral Medicine and Radiology

jiaomr.in

 

[WingsOverTX]

I'm not a psychological expert, but I wonder if this is the sort of stressor that might push someone with certain tendencies over the edge...

MOO

I would agree except I think he had already gone "over the edge" when he graduated from DeSales & moved to Moscow.

A major reason his behavior was compromised in his first PhD semester was he was spending almost all of his free time (and a lot of what should have been sleeping time) looking for potential victims & obsessing over his desire to commit mass murder, IMO.

Does he have underlying incel-type or plain misogynist-type thoughts about women? Yes, IMO. I am now seeing that as why he targeted this house.

One reason his behavior got him fired was it was so far out of the norm - he just didn't care about how he came across. He was OBSESSED with one thing: planning MURDER.

My opinion only.

 

[Nova]

Yes, definitely the catalyst, IMO.

Well, a major catalyst, anyway. I keep thinking about how his term in Pullman seems to have been BK's first time living beyond driving range of his parents. That had to be stressful, too.

 

[Boxer]

To me, as a former college administrator and 40 year employee of a college, it says very plainly that the person was already over the edge. Colleges are very slow to take this sort of action and in Washington, it takes several layers of administration action (usually including a review by the relevant Board of Trustees, which will hear such matters in closed session).

I am privy to a recent firing of a high ranking college employee, whose treatment was precisely like anyone else's. Once the termination was completed, the college was legally able to share the fact that the person had been fired (and indeed, shared the way of it, just as in this case - in the case I'm familiar with, it was sexual harassment and gender discrimination, with an emphasis on the sexual harassment).

Once a termination occurs, HR is no longer involved, and the Board of Trustees and the Chancellor of the college are under no obligation to protect former employees fired for cause.

IME and IMO. At any rate, the behaviors have to be fairly egregious and I believe that was the case with BK - especially given how the professor for whom he was TA-ing handled his problems in an unusual manner. It's the manner someone might use if 1) afraid that the TA in question might go off on or harm a complaining student; and/or 2) afraid that the TA in question might harm someone if they approached him on the individual level. It's a really difficult situation, but Ed Code in Washington allows a professor to skip an individual conference with a difficult student (and BK was, after all, a student). The problem is always what to do while the person's case goes through HR. I would assume the prof had already filed the case with HR before taking action against BK in the classroom. I would also assume the prof had the dean's assistance in doing this and by the time the group "confrontation" took place, the prof may well have been given direct advice by HR. If the class has any degree of study of psychology (I don't know the subject where this took place, I'm assuming something like Criminology 101), then it's not unusual to **try** to work a solution that is within the bounds of the class (so if the class was discussing psychological and group dynamics, it would make sense to attempt to use those things, however clumsily, to solve the scary problem).

IME, no one reports a student worker to HR unless they are scared. If the prof was additionally taking personal days off to avoid the student, HR will give fairly stern advice (they are HR and they know the law). But the pieces are falling into place. BK was not cut out to be a TA (or a criminology student) and crashed/burned rapidly when made to attend regular college classes and, more importantly, to interact as a leader with near-peers.

IMO. IME.


So, forensic radiology of knife wounds isn't a thing? And no samples of metal were taken from the bodies? It's entirely possible that that's true. But it's also possible that it's not true. U of Washington is one of the leaders in forensic radiology, wherein an MRI machine is used on the deceased to locate metal fragments of bullets or, yes, even atoms of knife metal.

It's possible it wasn't done in this case. But if it was and it's a Ka-Bar knife, it's my understanding that it has a proprietary 'recipe" for its blades. You may well be right that this wasn't done, but as a member of Team Pollyanna, I am going to hold out hope that it was. It would be spectacular thing for the U of Washington and its team.

First pioneered by forensic dentistry (and therefore focused on the head and teeth), these techniques are becoming more widely used. In the article below, either search for "knife" or go to "other uses of forensic radiology" section. It's the only freely available article I could find to post, but there are many others and some are quite specific to the question of knife blade or needle components found only by MRI or other sophisticated, detailed means.

Journal of Indian Academy of Oral Medicine and Radiology

jiaomr.in

So your case they shard the contents of his disciplinary letter?
If so I am schooled.

MOO That he was near fired by mid October is obvious, from hearing that his supervising professor tried save the situation by to putting together some kind of last ditch effort on his behalf with an intervention with the students. Maybe HR advised it.

 

[Moriarty]

I'm sure the disciplinary action included those you name, but also a Dean of some kind, the professor who taught the course, the professor who taught whatever courses BK was to cover after the holiday break (if different), and several others in his department (Department Chair, Program Chair, secretaries, etc.).

Then somebody had to be hired to replace BK in the now current term or his work had to be redistributed among other TAs, which would almost certainly mean the entire team was able to figure out what happened, as well as, by now, all 150 kids in the class! (Of course they've all heard of his arrest, so losing his job may not be news by comparison.)

And, I suspect, there might have been an original complaint/s lodged from a female student/s stating BK was not marking the women in the class on the same standards as the men to trigger the initial disciplinary action.

Again, all very hypothetical and my own thoughts I'm throwing out here based on a bunch of speculation, but IF you are as arrogant as some media reports seem to indicate BK was, and IF you have been accused of being unprofessional by a female undergrad student and have to undergo a personal improvement plan and have your source of income and even pride and confidence as a criminology grad student threatened, and IF women have not been answering your social media requests/messages (which I know we don't for sure this occurred)...could you not see that anger, rage and resentment finally spilling out? That is certainly a narrative I would consider as a prosecutor...

MOO