ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 71

[RonSwanson33]

This car will make me crazy. How are they going to explain that they were searching for a 2011-2013 Elantra and then Whoops, we meant 2015? Because the differences on the type of Elantra they showed images of between a 2011-2013 and a 2015 are distinctive. Unless there was something 2011-2013 on the 2015 (like the wheels), whomever was reviewing the tapes and identified it incorrectly needs to go back and learn some more about car identification.

If they had just said 2011-2016, it would have covered all of the 5th gen.

MOO, it's a car person thing.

I think it's a real easy mistake and normal ppl don't know the difference.

 

[iamshadow21]

My main point was if she possibly called the other roommates this would signify a thorough understanding something was wrong. Her subsequent reaction and actions after getting no response seems to be calm and collected. I don’t see it as hysterical/panicky as has been stated in the current narrative until the 911 calls the next day.

If you go back a number of pages, you'll find my account of being mugged, where my initial response was to shut down, followed by hysteria when the violence escalated, followed by being immobile again before I and my friends were finally able to seek help. I'm not saying that my experience is identical to D's, but shutdown is a very, very common response to fear and violent crime. It's the freeze response, or a dissociative response, to being threatened. You freeze up because your brain tells you it's the way to stay safe - like a rabbit in headlights - or your brain goes into complete denial about what is happening and you either disbelieve what you're experiencing as unreal, or your brain sends you on a mundane errand, like going to the shops for milk when you've been a victim of an assault and your bottle of milk got broken and what you actually need is medical attention (this is an imaginary example of the kind of things people can do).

I am not a psychologist or any kind of expert, but there is a wealth of information out there, and here on Websleuths, about how people don't react how they think they're going to react when they are victims or witnesses of violence.

MOO

 

[10ofRods]

And I think he MUST have been coming down the step from the front of the house, because of the way D's door opens. If he'd been coming down the flight of stairs from the top floor, where Maddie and Kaylee were, she only would have seen his shoulder and back as he turned left toward the kitchen. Either that, or she would have had to have her door wide open and be standing practically at the foot of the stairs herself, or have her head craning out, and there is no way in heck he could have overlooked her.

With the perpetrator coming down that single step and starting to turn right towards the kitchen, D only had to have the door cracked a fraction of an inch with her eye to the gap to see him. He would have been mostly facing her, probably with his eyes slightly downcast so that he didn't stumble on the stair, so his eyes would have been in shadow, but his eyebrows probably prominent and noticeable in any ambient light. He passed her probably closer than two feet from where she was standing. I think she got a very good look at him.

MOO

So where does he get the blood on his shoe, in your opinion? Do we know which direction the latent print was directed? This seems to me to be curious and you seem to have a good idea about the layout of 1122.

Very curious. What's the next step? Where did the killer get blood on his shoe? The PCA presents as fact that the shoe print was heading in a direction that enabled the murderer to exit through the slider. What do you think, after looking at the space?

I'm understanding you to mean that he was coming up from the first floor (front) of the house. We may be using different directional terms here. Which side is the front of the house, to you? (Side with slider - or side with wreath on door?)

Just my attempt to understand. IMO.

 

[schooling]

Theories are always evolving. That doesn’t prove anything. And it certainly doesn’t discount any of the evidence they have on BK.

If his defense team can’t use the “inconsistencies” (I’m sorry but lol) to have evidence barred or thrown out before trial starts…then they aren’t worth diddly squat.

 

[jepop]

Snipped / bolded for focus

Has it been confirmed that it was expanded to before given to the public? Admittedly have fallen off this case due to work in the last week or two, but I hadn't seen that detail.

IMO, they got BK in their crosshairs based on his white Elantra being registered to WSU, and then went back for further review to see if they could exclude his 2015 Elantra from the video, and then the investigator decided it could be a broader range. I don't think LE was intentionally giving out false info.

Been studying that PCA again...

LE asked officers to be on the lookout for white Elantras on November 25th per PCA p 9. BK's Elantra identified on 29th November, as you say, through WSU car rego search, plus an officer was definately looking for white Elantras in Pullman on Nov 29th and found BK's at Steptoe on that date (PCA, pp9-10).

I believe LE asked public for Elantra info 2011- 2013 -as reported in MSM- after Nov 29th? It's my opinion, that owing to investigative reasons LE did not expand the years to beyond 2013 for the public.

At this point (first week December?) I'd imagine they were still trying to eliminate/get alibis for other registered white Elantras, whilst simultaneously investigating BK as possible suspect. I'd imagine LE have a boatload of white elantras, years 2011-2016/15, that they have eliminated/alibied for the night of the crime. MOO

I believe LE spent a lot of time and resources doing that in the month of December, prior to getting BK's phone records on DEc 23rd, per PCA p12. Because I believe LE wanted to be as sure as possible. MOO.

Specialists studying the footage LE collected immediately post Nov 13th had to have informed LE of Elantra possibilities including adding the years up to 2016 on or before Nov 25, IMO. Per PCA, LE were looking for white Elantras by No 25th. This is prior to any public announcements AFAIA.

pp-9-10 and p12.

122922 Affidavit - Exhibit A - Statement of Brett Payne.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - 122922 Affidavit - Exhibit A - Statement of Brett Payne.pdf -

pdfhost.io

EBM: removed "2011-2016" from 1st and last paragraphs as not explicitly stated in PCA.

 

[RonSwanson33]

I don't think DM went from her "frozen shock phase" quoted in the affidavit to believing everything was fine. I definitely think she knew something was amiss. She may not have known her friends were being murdered, but I doubt this was a regular Saturday night occurrence. IMO, DM spent that night terrified and afraid to look to see what had happened until BF was up.

MOO

Isn't she underage? I know for a fact I would not have called cops in the middle of the night for fear of being busted with booze. IMO

 

[RonSwanson33]

His neighbors seem to report him as cleaning, vacuuming, dealing with garbage in the middle of the night.

IMO.

Here's an article:

Accused University of Idaho murderer Bryan Kohberger ‘never slept’

“He’s normally a very late-night person, going to the bathroom and vacuuming at 1 or 12 in the morning,” the neighbor said.

nypost.com

What to make of it?

Right but his apartment sounded messy from the evidence they found IMO

 

[RonSwanson33]

His neighbors seem to report him as cleaning, vacuuming, dealing with garbage in the middle of the night.

IMO.

Here's an article:

Accused University of Idaho murderer Bryan Kohberger ‘never slept’

“He’s normally a very late-night person, going to the bathroom and vacuuming at 1 or 12 in the morning,” the neighbor said.

nypost.com

What to make of it? Here is the quote from the article:

“It seemed like he never slept because he was always doing something all night.”

And that something was:

"...going to the bathroom and vacuuming at 1 or 12 in the morning."

...“He’s normally a very late-night person."

Don't see how that makes him a clean person IMO. I bet he also has a messy office like most professors. IMO here you can see they removed like a box of Christmas stuff and papers etc. Police raid office of Bryan Kohberger, Idaho murders suspect

 

[jepop]

I really wasn't thinking that LE were befuddled; I just wondered whether apparent LE confusion could be used as a defense. I guess I was thinking of the OJ criminal trial, where every aspect of DNA collection and testing were deciphered until the jurors admitted they simply ignored all DNA evidence. (Yes, there were some social factors going on as well, but the fact remains that Barry Scheck and Dr. Lee were able to blunt DNA evidence that was rationally undeniable.)

Totally understand, and I don't know if defense would try it or not in this case. Just from my uninformed view, I wouldn't have thought it would yield much for them. Others with what I assume is more experience in how these things might play out have spoken on this since! MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

So where does he get the blood on his shoe, in your opinion? Do we know which direction the latent print was directed? This seems to me to be curious and you seem to have a good idea about the layout of 1122.

Very curious. What's the next step? Where did the killer get blood on his shoe? The PCA presents as fact that the shoe print was heading in a direction that enabled the murderer to exit through the slider. What do you think, after looking at the space?

I'm understanding you to mean that he was coming up from the first floor (front) of the house. We may be using different directional terms here. Which side is the front of the house, to you? (Side with slider - or side with wreath on door?)

Just my attempt to understand. IMO.

All of this is just my thoughts, I am not an expert, MOO, etc. etc. Also, forgive all the talk of blood, I promise you, I'm not a ghoul, it's just inextricably relevant to the shoeprint evidence.

I think that this was a very bloody scene, based the public comments of a number of folks who actually went inside the house, which none of us have.

But I think an important thing here is that it's described as a latent print. So, not obvious or sharply clear to the naked eye. So it's possible that there was only a small amount on his soles, but enough to leave a print that was recoverable. They did a presumptive test, and then they stained it with Amido black, which is used for a number of things, but one thing it does very well is enable latent prints in things like blood or blood serum to be clearly photographed for evidence. It reacts to the proteins.

I think he couldn't avoid getting blood on the tread of his shoes, especially if the reports we have of the attacks on the middle floor being far more active are true. Blood landing on the floor, him stepping forward to press his attack, stepping in the blood. None of these floors are carpeted, they're all lino, so that blood isn't going to be soaked up by the flooring, it's just going to spatter and pool, and eventually become tacky, and then dry.

Also, he walked around the house carrying a large knife. Unless he wiped it after every kill, there'd be drip trailing of blood from the tip of the knife which he may have stepped in, too, which could have increased the amount of shoe marks.

I think there were plenty of shoe marks through the house, by the way. The bloody nature of the scene, there wouldn't be just one. The reason why that one was used in the PCA is that it was clear, recoverable, indicated the path of the perpetrator through the home, and was corroborated by an eyewitness (and also helped support that eyewitness's statement as fact, not imagination, fabrication, or unreliable). The rest of the ones they recovered may be part of the trial, showing a likely path of movement and sequence of events of the whole attack, from the first murder to the exit of the home. They may even have earlier prints from his entry that are in dirt or vegetation or carpet fibres from his car mats. Those wouldn't be in blood, because whomever he attacked first hadn't bled yet for him to step in.

All very much my theories and opinions. If anything is glaringly, provably wrong, please correct me! I want to be basing my ideas on facts, not getting attached to something that can't have happened.

As for the house - I think of the front door with the wreath, as the front. The 'back' slider door - which actually points diagonally back and right - as being close to the back wall of the house. So, the windows of B, Xana, and the living room face the front. D's window, Kaylee's slider (also on the diagonal), and Maddie's window face the back. Does that make sense?

EDIT: Also, I have been using the terms bottom floor, middle floor, and top floor, because different geographical conventions for the term first floor, etc. make this way too confusing, otherwise. I live in Australia where that layout would be ground, first, second. But I think in the US, it would be first, second, third. Bottom, middle, and top is unambiguous.

 

[RonSwanson33]

Snipped for focus. That's your opinion. My opinion is different. I believe there were several inconsistencies from LE and their officials (JMO), including most recently, the Indiana police stops.

Idaho murders: FBI denies directing Indiana police to pull over Bryan Kohberger

A law enforcement surveillance team was tracking Bryan Kohberger and his father on their cross-country road trip and directed Indiana police to pull the two over.

www.foxnews.com

IMO Nothing FoxNews has reported about this case has been true. IMO Daily Mail is even way better than FN coverage.

 

[Nova]

I'll direct you to message #514. You're free to disagree with it, but I did say what the inconsistencies were, IMO, and provided links to MSM commenting on them (the inconsistences by LE) too.

ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 71

It is all in the Probable Cause Affidavit The question I asked isn't in the PCA. That's why I was wondering.

www.websleuths.com

Thank you. I never said it was a fact that LE was incompetent.

I merely asked a hypothetical as to whether BK's attorney could use apparently contradictory statements from authorities to claim the investigation was disorganized, at least in the earliest stages. As others have pointed out, not every inference by the defense must be factual; it may suffice if it merely raises doubt.

 

[Nova]

I don't think DM went from her "frozen shock phase" quoted in the affidavit to believing everything was fine. I definitely think she knew something was amiss. She may not have known her friends were being murdered, but I doubt this was a regular Saturday night occurrence. IMO, DM spent that night terrified and afraid to look to see what had happened until BF was up.

MOO

I don't know what DM was thinking, but it is a fact that sexual assaults are far, far, far more numerous on college campuses than murders.

 

[wary]

I trust your memory, but even the mayor is a government authority and could be cited as evidence of confusion among officials. I'm not convinced a jury would fall for such an argument--as PittsburghGirl points out--I was just wondering if such an argument is even possible...

It’s a good question. I think the jury needs to be reminded that LE’s knowledge and opinions were a work in progress, modified as evidence came in. In other words, the polar opposite of a ‘rush to judgement,’ a phrase defense attorneys are fond of using.

MOO

 

[jepop]

At 4am, presumably everybody was asleep. Except X. Except BK.

It would appear that At least two things might have occurred near-simultaneously -- Door Dash arrived and BK was parking.

IF X accepted her delivery in hand or even retrieved it contact-freely, she could have been on the lower level from 4 am to 4:12. She could have sat down on the stairs to eat her food, enoy her tiktok, disturb nobody...

It's possible the K told M "there's somebody here" -- because she heard a sound, heard the sliding door, heard the door dash delivery, heard BK -- and identified the sound as distinct from sounds her roommates might make. (She may have looked out a window, saw a figure, or hearing what she heard, shut Murphy in her room and crossed over to M's room.)

But it's also possible X said it. To Ethan.

Consider: X is on the lower level when BK enters (around 4:06, 4:08, 4:10) and proceeds directly to M's room. X reaches the middle level. 4:12. And something is off. The slider is open. Something. Not necessarily scary at this point, just weird. Weird enough to tell Ethan. Ethan gets out of bed to investigate. Steps into the doorway where he encounters BK, returning from the third floor.

IMO one targeted murder, three reactive murders and a fast retreat.

JMO

Everything you write here makes sense to me as a possibility with no evidence to the contrary, except the last part (BBM). I think BK returning from third floor would not be able to see directly into XK's room or hallway, if she is in her room or hallway telling Ethan "someone's here". So BK, would have had to have heard the comment as he steps off the third floor stairs and proceeded direct to XK's hallway and room instead of turning to cross kitchen and exit via slider. MOO

 

[Nova]

And I think he MUST have been coming down the step from the front of the house, because of the way D's door opens. If he'd been coming down the flight of stairs from the top floor, where Maddie and Kaylee were, she only would have seen his shoulder and back as he turned left toward the kitchen. Either that, or she would have had to have her door wide open and be standing practically at the foot of the stairs herself, or have her head craning out, and there is no way in heck he could have overlooked her.

With the perpetrator coming down that single step and starting to turn right towards the kitchen, D only had to have the door cracked a fraction of an inch with her eye to the gap to see him. He would have been mostly facing her, probably with his eyes slightly downcast so that he didn't stumble on the stair, so his eyes would have been in shadow, but his eyebrows probably prominent and noticeable in any ambient light. He passed her probably closer than two feet from where she was standing. I think she got a very good look at him.

MOO

Great summary! (The weird layout of that middle floor is the thing that makes me wonder if the intruder had been inside the house before.)

 

[Nova]

Isn't she underage? I know for a fact I would not have called cops in the middle of the night for fear of being busted with booze. IMO

Even if you thought your housemates had been stabbed to death? Say it ain't so, Joe! (I realize DM may not have known the extent of the violence.)

We know from the stopping of underage drinkers in a nearby field--the body cam footage was released to the public--that the only penalty was a fine.

 

[Nova]

...Also, I have been using the terms bottom floor, middle floor, and top floor, because different geographical conventions for the term first floor, etc. make this way too confusing, otherwise. I live in Australia where that layout would be ground, first, second. But I think in the US, it would be first, second, third. Bottom, middle, and top is unambiguous.

I have been doing the same, not only because of different conventions in different countries, but because of the weird architecture created by the add-on. (That middle floor on two levels might be thought of as two different floors by some.)

I hope our convention becomes universal.

 

[katydid23]

It’s a good question. I think the jury needs to be reminded that LE’s knowledge and opinions were a work in progress, modified as evidence came in. In other words, the polar opposite of a ‘rush to judgement,’ a phrase defense attorneys are fond of using.

MOO

I agree. I don't think it's that damaging to the case that LE had various differing responses in the early part of the investigation. It is normal that their opinions change as the investigation unfolds.

I don't believe that the jury is going to have issues with the murder case just because LE kept changing their public updates about their findings. Obviously things change as new information is uncovered.

 

[iamshadow21]

At 4am, presumably everybody was asleep. Except X. Except BK.

It would appear that At least two things might have occurred near-simultaneously -- Door Dash arrived and BK was parking.

IF X accepted her delivery in hand or even retrieved it contact-freely, she could have been on the lower level from 4 am to 4:12. She could have sat down on the stairs to eat her food, enoy her tiktok, disturb nobody...

It's possible the K told M "there's somebody here" -- because she heard a sound, heard the sliding door, heard the door dash delivery, heard BK -- and identified the sound as distinct from sounds her roommates might make. (She may have looked out a window, saw a figure, or hearing what she heard, shut Murphy in her room and crossed over to M's room.)

But it's also possible X said it. To Ethan.

Consider: X is on the lower level when BK enters (around 4:06, 4:08, 4:10) and proceeds directly to M's room. X reaches the middle level. 4:12. And something is off. The slider is open. Something. Not necessarily scary at this point, just weird. Weird enough to tell Ethan. Ethan gets out of bed to investigate. Steps into the doorway where he encounters BK, returning from the third floor.

IMO one targeted murder, three reactive murders and a fast retreat.

JMO

I think we've all kind of been assuming Xana alone was awake, because there was activity on her phone, because her name was on the bag.

But it's been bothering me for a couple of reasons.

One, that's a pretty decent sized bag for one person's meal.

Two, if I'd come back from a party, and it was late, and me and my partner were kind of dozing, playing with our phones, maybe watching Netflix, and it got to three-ish and I was hungry, even if my partner had dozed off, I'd nudge them, and say, "Dude, I'm starving, I'm getting Door Dash, what do you want?"

And if I couldn't wake them, I'd just roll my eyes and order their usual, because I'd know that if I just ordered for me, the moment I started eating, they'd inevitably wake up and ask for some of my burger.

This is just very much my opinion and speculation only, but I don't think that Xana's name on the bag means that Xana was for certain the only one awake and eating.

And if what has been said in MSM about Ethan being attacked in the doorway is true, rather than tabloids making up stuff from SM rumour, then him being awake and standing up defensively makes more sense than him being asleep. It also makes me think it likely the 'someone's here' (paraphrasing) was either Ethan or Xana, to the other.

Absolutely MOO