ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 35

[Dotta]

"Students at the University of Idaho are now being offered self-defense classes since there is still a killer on the loose."

University of Idaho offers self defense and stalking awareness class

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

Correct.

She seems pretty much embraced by the local community. I believe she has held the position for some time.

 

[Arkay]

I definitely do not think someone's advances were rebuffed and then this person just snapped and decided to kill. To me this crime took A LOT of preplanning.

Could be both, I imagine.

Maybe the culprit was rebuffed once, several years ago, and never got over it. Or was rebuffed continually over the course of all the college years, culminating in a methodical plan to kill now.

Or wasn't even rebuffed and never even approached the girls, but perceived himself to be shunned by them in particular or by the lifestyle they represented.

Just guessing.

 

[Down To Earth]

So what are some theories about what the killer(s) is doing right now? In other high profile cases, what were the killers doing before they were eventually arrested?

To a certain extent, this relates to what kind of person did this. What do serial killers do when they are being sought after with so much publicity and scrutiny?

If they are somebody that snapped for whatever reason (I know we have different theories about how impulsive this could have been), what are they doing? Are they watching everything? Did they return to their daily life? How are they coping?

Maybe they are somebody who lives in the margins, moves in and out of cities, stays at shelters, motels. Which leads to another question, LE enforcement probably knows the behavior of people who live that way and the kinds of places to ask around at, right?

Anyway, just wondered if others have thoughts based on other crimes like this.

Yes, this is the type of stuff I've been thinking about. This person or persons has to eat, has to sleep. Are they working a job to provide for this? If so, is it the same job as prior to the murders or is it somewhere new? Are they standing over a garbage can fire on a skid row somewhere or watching the NASDAQ index from the penthouse of a swanky high-rise? Have they hung themselves from the rafters of an abandoned barn in the middle of nowhere or are dropping off their kids at school in the mornings? Is it someone in LE or clergy or a multiple felon? A group of teens or a mentally ill transient?

Another thing that I swirl around is what evidence LE have that this was a targeted attack (of some sort)? The splash this crime has had from the beginning and how quickly FBI were called into the investigation leads me to believe IMO there are some weird details from the initial crime scene that public hasn't been privy to yet.

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

Because E didn't have a bed in that house.

His girlfriend did. Are you not assuming they slept in the same bed?

 

[AngTxGal]

All coroners in smaller western counties have other jobs. Why is this such an issue for some?

You’ll have to ask those people who have a problem with her holding two jobs. She is also a registered nurse who works at a hospital.

I have issues with what she has said to the press and families
It makes zero sense for her to speculate on the motive of the killer, emotional state, body strength of killer, level of defense of victims, level of pain felt by victims, timing of deaths after attack as if she is an outside consultant.
She is the coroner, what she says to the press and to families should be factual and with the ok of LE, it is an ongoing investigation and the killer is at large.

SMH
JMO

 

[10ofRods]

All coroners in smaller western counties have other jobs. Why is this such an issue for some?

Probably because this coroner is actively defending someone who could possibly be a suspect in this case. However, that person is not accused of a murderer so, so far, no real conflict of interest.

Headlines have certainly sensationalized her role as a defender of a convicted murderer though:

Convicted killed arrested a mile away from University of Idaho murders

Latah County Coroner Cathy Mabbutt is representing ex-convict James Leonard, 39, of Moscow, Idaho, who was arrested a mile away from the Idaho murders in an unrelated incident.

www.dailymail.co.uk

In this case, the coroner has had to walk back a few of her own statements, which adds to the mistrust I think. IMO.

 

[CityKid]

His girlfriend did. Are you not assuming they slept in the same bed?

I think someone was going by a strict definition of whether that was technically his bed. It was constructively "his," but it was really X's.

 

[OrangeRhyme]

SPECULATION.

Depends on the serial killer and it's really hard to generalize.

Ed Kemper hung around with police quite a bit, while living his normal life. Keith Jesperson just went right on with his normal life, driving his truck, spending time with his family. Joe DeAngelo found excuses to travel but was otherwise apparently a normal family man (co-workers said he wasn't exceptionally talkative but friendly and organized fishing trips/invited acquaintances or friends along). Dennis Rader kept up his appearances at church, Boy Scouts and otherwise, while his family apparently had no clues about his crimes.

In short, I think many serial killers just tend to go on with their normal lives, using their mask of normalcy as their main way of avoiding detection.

People who "snap" usually snap more than once. I can't say whether this crime involved "snapping" or not.

It's possible that this person does lead a "marginal" life and LE would know some of the locals who fit that description. However, if the serial killer is a drifter, surely they would be long gone from Moscow, ID.

To me, this crime seems well-organized and very specific to the conditions of that neighborhood - and that night. Whoever it is, they spent time planning and watching (more than one evening, IMO). However, I'm open to nearly every theory on this crime, as we have so few details.

We call people "serial killers" because they kill on more than one occasion, over time. So far this crime is a mass murder. Dennis Rader started his serial killing with a mass murder and I'm guessing there are others who did so, but usually a serial killer goes through the rush of the kill, has a "refractory" period where they watch and wait (whether they're terribly worried seems to be in doubt - certainly Jesperson's autobiography shows a man who was able to shrug off what he was doing).

Then the urge to kill becomes uncontrollable once again OR the opportunity for an "easy target" becomes available. I need to read more about killers like Richard Ramirez, who may have been living in stolen cars for part of the time he was in Los Angeles.

I don't think it was planned.
I think it was a spur of the moment, rage filled act.

If you put yourself in the mind of the killer, this house would be far too risky to target.
5 occupants with a dog and potentially bfs or friends staying. Close proximity to neighbors.
Even the time is a bad time.

I think they had the knife already on them or in their car or house. They put on gloves and maybe a COVID mask.

I'm not sure what tipped them over the edge.
But they knew the girls. Knew the house. Probably knew keycode on front door.

I think anyone planning this would've had too many doubts and talked themselves out of it. There's much easier targets.

So it must've been personal and unplanned.

 

[ilovewings]

A cold case doesn’t have over 15,000 tips being sorted through and over 100 LE personnel assigned with a million dollars dedicated to solving it.
Once a case is labeled cold due to exhausting all leads, funding drops and usually only one or two detectives handle all the cold cases for a department, even in a major city.

Excellent point--I find it annoying that talking heads like Banfield say something
So false and absurd!

 

[layer]

We call people "serial killers" because they kill on more than one occasion, over time.

Do you see any differences in the psychology of someone like Rader as a mass murderer, ie just after the Otero killings, and Rader as a serial killer (after repeated killings). To me, the mindset is the same. Say he still had urges but managed to supress the desire to repeat. Or was caught before he could? Or had his day and was happy to just gloat on it the rest of his pathetic life.

What would be the proper psychological description for that person? Sure, it's a mass murderer, but not really the same as someone that just "snapped". Someone that stalks, fantasizes, plans.

Whatever that description is, I strongly feel that is what we are dealing with here.

 

[layer]

His girlfriend did. Are you not assuming they slept in the same bed?

Quite the contrary, I am assuming that they did!

 

[10ofRods]

Personal and planned is my guess (but am open to personal and unplanned as well).

I sense that someone spent a good deal of time fantasizing about this crime and thinking about how they would accomplish it (including buying the knife fairly recently). IMO.

Since we do not know what LE means by "house was targeted," I have been thinking a lot about general victimology in this case. Whether or not it was planned and whether or not these four young people were specifically chosen as victims, right now, the larger community is a victim. Whether or not it was intended by the killer, the Greek system at U of I must also feel specifically threatened/worried.

If this house was more or less chosen from among many houses where young college students lived, it is significant to me that it was a house that normally had all women occupants. I personally do not think the house parties were open to all comers, I think that what the LEO said in the Sept 1 body cam video ("This is an off campus sorority house") is apt.

 

[General wooster]

I don't think it was planned.
I think it was a spur of the moment, rage filled act.

If you put yourself in the mind of the killer, this house would be far too risky to target.
5 occupants with a dog and potentially bfs or friends staying. Close proximity to neighbors.
Even the time is a bad time.

I think they had the knife already on them or in their car or house. They put on gloves and maybe a COVID mask.

I'm not sure what tipped them over the edge.
But they knew the girls. Knew the house. Probably knew keycode on front door.

I think anyone planning this would've had too many doubts and talked themselves out of it. There's much easier targets.

So it must've been personal and unplanned.

Yes, it does seem as if they were familiar with the layout and occupancy in general. However, IMO they had given it some thought by way of a plan and subsequent escape. Clearly, they did not wish to be caught. Mass murderers, historically, do not care about getting caught. There sole mission is to kill as many people as they can. They accept, possibly welcome, their own demise. The serial killer is a different animal, quite literally. Am I saying that this killer has killed before? Not necessarily, but definitely has likely burglarized, victimized others in some way, and has experience creating a persona that is a facade.

 

[SRWCF]

Exactly. My original post was in regards to the Hyndai LE has asked help locating. Unsure why poster assumed otherwise.
Thanks for confirming.

Yep. Pretty sure if LE had the VIN # of the exact white Elantra they are looking for, they certainly wouldn't be asking for the public's help!

 

[al66pine]

snipped for focus @BondGirl007

Agreed, in a home w four stabbing deaths, 9 hours post mortem, very likely there will be odors there.

Maybe victims's lack of control of bodily functions at death?

Not sure if blood would be the predominate odor, IDK.

IMO, how about all of the sheer silence-that in itself would be deafening, especially inside what is known as a “ party house”.
[/QUOTE] @drmrgrl

Yes, it'd be a deafening silence.

 

[layer]

If you put yourself in the mind of the killer...

I go way, way out of the way to avoid doing that. Never, ever...

if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you
Nietzsche

 

[10ofRods]

Do you see any differences in the psychology of someone like Rader as a mass murderer, ie just after the Otero killings, and Rader as a serial killer (after repeated killings). To me, the mindset is the same. Say he still had urges but managed to supress the desire to repeat. Or was caught before he could? Or had his day and was happy to just gloat on it the rest of his pathetic life.

What would be the proper psychological description for that person? Sure, it's a mass murderer, but not really the same as someone that just "snapped". Someone that stalks, fantasizes, plans.

Whatever that description is, I strongly feel that is what we are dealing with here.

Whatever the category is, it contains only a few people, which is why it's so frustrating and intriguing (this case).

I see this as closer to Elliot Roger's mass murder spree in Isla Vista, CA or even to Columbine or Uvalde or the El Paso Mall slayings. I say that right now because we do not have any information about a specific victim being targeted. Instead, a particular type of place was targeted.

Since (as I'm sure you are thinking), that's not enough to really explain the mind of this killer, I am in the "likely to have done stalking/planning" camp for now.

So the person has obsessive thoughts, an extensive fantasy life (probably revolving a lot around perceived threats and personal grudges), is relatively paranoid, is great at appearing to be social and possibly is even charming and appears well-adjusted. I don't think this is a case of "snapped," myself, although it's possible that among many triggers, the triggers of this particular night or week were involved in the crime actually happening when it did.

For we who are "normal," I just want to say that obsessive thoughts go way beyond normal worrying or mulling things over. These thoughts basically take over the inner life of the subject. A job may provide relief from the thoughts, drugs or alcohol may numb some of the thoughts, distractions may be used (intensely).

 

[OrangeRhyme]

Personal and planned is my guess (but am open to personal and unplanned as well).

I sense that someone spent a good deal of time fantasizing about this crime and thinking about how they would accomplish it (including buying the knife fairly recently). IMO.

Since we do not know what LE means by "house was targeted," I have been thinking a lot about general victimology in this case. Whether or not it was planned and whether or not these four young people were specifically chosen as victims, right now, the larger community is a victim. Whether or not it was intended by the killer, the Greek system at U of I must also feel specifically threatened/worried.

If this house was more or less chosen from among many houses where young college students lived, it is significant to me that it was a house that normally had all women occupants. I personally do not think the house parties were open to all comers, I think that what the LEO said in the Sept 1 body cam video ("This is an off campus sorority house") is apt.

I just think it's too risky to be planned.
All it required was somebody waking and phoning 911 or running from the house. Or the dog barking. Or someone fighting back.

If I was planning this, all these doubts would creep in to my mind and I wouldn't go through with it. I'd target an easier victim.

But somebody filled with rage and maybe alcohol would just do it regardless.
Rage impairs judgement.

 

[jumpingjackflash]

Could be both, I imagine.

Maybe the culprit was rebuffed once, several years ago, and never got over it. Or was rebuffed continually over the course of all the college years, culminating in a methodical plan to kill now.

Or wasn't even rebuffed and never even approached the girls, but perceived himself to be shunned by them in particular or by the lifestyle they represented.

Just guessing.

Yes. I can't emphasize enough how real/common the second phenomenon is. I have known more than one man to fabricate a narrative about having been wronged by a woman, and then to weaponize that narrative to justify acts of violence/aggression toward her. These can be acts of psychological/psychosocial violence (think internet defamation and cyberstalking/cyberbullying) or they can be physical. The form of violence chosen can reflect certain aspects of the aggressor's identity/education/skill set.