ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 38

[everybodhi]

https://thekeep.eiu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4722&context=theses

Began reading this. Very eye opening

In my opinion

I don’t know about creating a grounded theory on data collected from only three subjects. But even the FBI’s famous study on serial killers only interviewed 35 men, all self selected, leading to some assumptions later found to be untrue as a whole. Even the “organized, unorganized, mixed” theory has been questioned, the belief that their actions at a murder scene are indicative of their actual lifestyle is not always true.
In your linked thesis by MS there are some obvious inconsistencies, for instance in the data list of common traits, satanism is listed, and yet only one of the three had any known interest in satanism.
“Correlation does not imply causation”, an observed association to traits or events does not prove a cause and effect. A lot more children have late childhood bedwetting than the number of serial killers who wet the bed during late childhood, and some of the most successful people in the world have narcissistic personality disorders, they may not make the best spouses, friends, or bosses, but most never kill anyone.
Serial killers can be difficult to catch because they aren’t connected to their victims, and contrary to widespread belief they don’t all exhibit consistent patterns, or MO,s, that make their crimes identifiable to one perpetrator. Some intentionally change things up to throw off LE.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Sure!
First, both of these interviews were very early on, the first weekend after the murders. Feelings were still very raw.

In the Fox interview, Lawrence Jones, the interviewer is asking:

LJ: We keep hearing this name Jack and phone calls going back and forth. Can you tell us anything about that?
To me, this strongly implies that he is asking about that last series of calls.

In the responding answers:
SG: One of her messages, one of her last messages, she reached out to Jack and said Jack, get back to me. And he didn't, and she goes we share a dog together, which they did. She's like you need to reach out to me.

Immediately after SG says that, K's mom says this:
K's mom: Please come over. She was wanting Jack to come over.
She was wanting Jack to come over.

This parallels the statement she made in the NBC interview, while indisputably discussing that last series of calls:

K's mom: Yeah, and we know who she was calling and this person is, this person was asleep, unfortunately, was not getting the calls. And it was a few calls between, for half an hour she called him a couple times and, but, no, we do not believe she was calling him for help. We believe that she was just calling him to come over.
We believe that she was just calling him to come over.

While we can't be positive, the context strongly leads me to believe that SG was also talking about that last series of calls, between 2:30 and 2:52am.

ETA: Inserted links

Just a random thought here. Why would she be calling him to come over at 3:00 am, while she was drunk and in bed with her BFF? Was she wanting him to help her and M speed dial other people they knew who were already asleep?

It makes more sense that her and M were speed dialing him to try to get him to come over so they could explain what M told A at the bar.

Take this in context.

SG: One of her messages, one of her last messages, she reached out to Jack and said Jack, get back to me. And he didn't, and she goes we share a dog together, which they did. She's like you need to reach out to me.
K's mom: Please come over.


But to me it sounds like K was desperate to explain something she knew he wouldn't like hearing. She was definitely worried about his reaction to what talk might have got back to him IMO.

Also just my speculation he may not have been asleep, but awake and ignoring her calls while he stewed over what he heard. Pouting so to speak.

JMO

 

[TeaTime]

It is likely the perp left his own blood at the scene. If the DNA analysis has been completed and there is a profile of someone other than the victims, he isn't in CODIS. However, LE can track all cell phone pings in the area at a specific time and quietly investigate those contacts before interviewing the cell owners. They can ask for DNA. If refused, then they stay on the list.

All of this technical and forensic evidence gathering takes time and the analysis even longer.

Time, give it time.

 

[Palinsmom]

I don’t know about creating a grounded theory on data collected from only three subjects. But even the FBI’s famous study on serial killers only interviewed 35 men, all self selected, leading to some assumptions later found to be untrue as a whole. Even the “organized, unorganized, mixed” theory has been questioned, the belief that their actions at a murder scene are indicative of their actual lifestyle is not always true.
In your linked thesis by MS there are some obvious inconsistencies, for instance in the data list of common traits, satanism is listed, and yet only one of the three had any known interest in satanism.
“Correlation does not imply causation”, an observed association to traits or events does not prove a cause and effect. A lot more children have late childhood bedwetting than the number of serial killers who wet the bed during late childhood, and some of the most successful people in the world have narcissistic personality disorders, they may not make the best spouses, friends, or bosses, but most never kill anyone.
Serial killers can be difficult to catch because they aren’t connected to their victims, and contrary to widespread belief they don’t all exhibit consistent patterns, or MO,s, that make their crimes identifiable to one perpetrator. Some intentionally change things up to throw off LE.

Exactly. That’s why I found it interesting. Because there are no 2 exactly the same. There is no exact way to recognize one just by observing them out and about in town per se. that’s also why I said JUST MY OPINION.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I don’t know about creating a grounded theory on data collected from only three subjects. But even the FBI’s famous study on serial killers only interviewed 35 men, all self selected, leading to some assumptions later found to be untrue as a whole. Even the “organized, unorganized, mixed” theory has been questioned, the belief that their actions at a murder scene are indicative of their actual lifestyle is not always true.
In the linked thesis there’s are some obvious inconsistencies, for instance in the data list of common traits, satanism is listed, and yet only one of the three had any known interest in satanism.
“Correlation does not imply causation”, an observed association to traits or events does not prove a cause and effect. A lot more children have late childhood bedwetting than the number of serial killers who wet the bed during late childhood, and some of the most successful people in the world have narcissistic personality disorders, they may not make the best spouses, friends, or bosses, but never kill anyone.
Serial killers can be difficult to catch because they aren’t connected to their victims, and contrary to widespread belief they don’t all exhibit consistent patterns, or MO,s, that make their crimes identifiable to one perpetrator. Some intentionally change things up to throw off LE.

I agree, in past high profile cases from around the world, the biggest mistakes were LE’s announcing what kind of profile fit the killer they’re chasing, so many were totally wrong and it cost lives.
The more open minded the investigators are, the higher chance of a successful arrest. Imo, we’ve got this here, hence, not much detail given to the media about this awful crime, no chance for false confessions and attention seeking time wasters.

 

[CrownCowboy1]

The question that has been discussed off and on, sometimes more frequently than other times, is: Was any DNA collected at the crime scene not of the victims but potentially of the killer/foreign party?

LE hasn't revealed that information although in other cases it has been revealed during the investigation. Considering the few descriptions we have of the crime scene, it certainly seems like it would be a challenge to collect such DNA in the environment. With that being said, it could take a good bit of time and lab work to get anything definitive.

I wonder if LE has asked anyone to submit their DNA. I haven't heard of that happening so far. Perhaps they didn't retrieve any foreign samples at the crime scene. Maybe they have but don't have any definitive results back as of yet.

I get the vibe that they haven't found any foreign DNA although one or more could have fought back. I could be off base and it could just be a time restraint so far. Either way, it's a pretty big aspect that could open up some doors.

 

[everybodhi]

Just a random thought here. Why would she be calling him to come over at 3:00 am, while she was drunk and in bed with her BFF? Was she wanting him to help her and M speed dial other people they knew who were already asleep?

It makes more sense that her and M were speed dialing him to try to get him to come over so they could explain what M told A at the bar.

Take this in context.

SG: One of her messages, one of her last messages, she reached out to Jack and said Jack, get back to me. And he didn't, and she goes we share a dog together, which they did. She's like you need to reach out to me.
K's mom: Please come over.


But to me it sounds like K was desperate to explain something she knew he wouldn't like hearing. She was definitely worried about his reaction to what talk might have got back to him IMO.

Also just my speculation he may not have been asleep, but awake and ignoring her calls while he stewed over what he heard. Pouting so to speak.

JMO

We don’t even know what they were talking about and definitely don’t know she was worried about it getting back to him.
We do know from multiple interviews it was completely in character for her to make repeated late night phone calls.

Revelry and a series of phone calls.
“She [AG] said that her sister frequently called people late at night — and often kept calling until they picked up — even if to ask a mundane question like what she ought to have for a meal.”

 

[debbiediablo]

Spitballing here but potentially imo:

maybe LE thinks that the killer stalked K&M or E&X and the killer will potentially show up in multiple places near one of the pairs, and maybe if LE gets enough photos/videos, they'll find that person in the background multiple places, so as many angles, as innocuous as the photos may seem to be, maybe they'll find that face in the crowd? could that be a reason? JMO and asking.

No worries. I'm glad we got it cleared up. it's hard in the posting environment to always be clear, and there's no way to know tone, etc., so things get misinterpreted and/or are confusing.

I knew that the title of the article was inflammatory, but that wasn't my intent. I just think it's important to consider the other side of an argument, and I really can see how wanna-be killers of humans could use hunting to learn the ropes. I mean, if I were a wanna-be killer using poison, I'd learn some chemistry and practice there. If I wanted to be a bank robber, I'd get a job as a teller. just makes sense to me. Unfortunately, if I ever turn to a life of crime, this post just made it easier for LE to find me lol.

MOO! The thing is hunting animals, wild ones, is pretty much impossible with a knife with the exception of trapping where the animal may remain alive for awhile. I live in an area where a sizable percentage of the population hunts a sizable percentage of their dietary protein. And for sure, killing an animal with a knife is a far different experience from killing with a gun and then field dressing it. If a killer decides to practice on an animal, then the victims would likely be domestic animals that are not skittish at the approach or scent of a human. But then my mind drifts to the real experience students have in Anatomy and Physiology in the schools that use cadavers (not all of them do).

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Confusion out of waking from deep sleep. Fast physical injury to lungs or throat. Alcohol—the toxicology report will give LE a insight into how easy or difficult it was. ‘Defensive wounds’ implies an ineffective struggle.

Then, why others didn’t hear? Ear plugs, white noise, etc. Pulling pillow over head while thinking that it’s too LATE to be stomping around the house—what’s a tactful way to ask them to keep it down, tomorrow. Lots of random yelps are associated with partying.

MOO

Don't forget alcohol has been used for literally thousands of years as a painkiller. Back in the old days when doctors were sometimes hundreds of miles away, someone breaks a leg, give them some whiskey to drink before you set it.

JMO

 

[Fascinated1]

Just a random thought here. Why would she be calling him to come over at 3:00 am, while she was drunk and in bed with her BFF? Was she wanting him to help her and M speed dial other people they knew who were already asleep?

It makes more sense that her and M were speed dialing him to try to get him to come over so they could explain what M told A at the bar.

Take this in context.

SG: One of her messages, one of her last messages, she reached out to Jack and said Jack, get back to me. And he didn't, and she goes we share a dog together, which they did. She's like you need to reach out to me.
K's mom: Please come over.


But to me it sounds like K was desperate to explain something she knew he wouldn't like hearing. She was definitely worried about his reaction to what talk might have got back to him IMO.

Also just my speculation he may not have been asleep, but awake and ignoring her calls while he stewed over what he heard. Pouting so to speak.

JMO

I always thought those messages were while she was at her home (with her parents) mainly because the night she was killed she was calling not texting as far as we know. Earlier (like I’m the first thread or two) there was discussion of the duration of the calls with not much time for messages to be left…so I think it’s a little unclear. But I guess the better question is does it matter? I doubt we will be able to figure it out unless jack, or one of her family members says any more about it.

 

[blackbeary]

Does anybody know if there is any reason near the house, especially behind it, for a small trucking company to be delivering there? Maybe delivering gravel or asphalt?

I'm not going to implicate some poor small company to explain my (silly?!) hypothesis. But if there's any reason y'all know of, just give a yell, please

Does a road continue passed the parking lot, or does it dead end there?

 

[RAISINISBACK]

We don’t even know what they were talking about and definitely don’t know she was worried about it getting back to him.
We do know from multiple interviews it was completely in character for her to make repeated late night phone calls.

Revelry and a series of phone calls.
“She [AG] said that her sister frequently called people late at night — and often kept calling until they picked up — even if to ask a mundane question like what she ought to have for a meal.”

“She [AG] said that her sister frequently called people late at night — and often kept calling until they picked up

What about M? Was she also in the habit of making late night speed dial calls to her BFF's ex?

I am taking what was said literally, not what the parents thinks was meant by her words or why the sister thought she was making those late night calls. Parents who lose children often cling to what was closest to their child before the child died. With time and distance the parents begins to see clearer.


definitely don’t know she was worried
She sounded upset when she said "Maddie what did you say to Adam?"
M's answer? "I told Adam everything."

This was a very short time before those late night calls to J.

Think it over.

JMO

 

[debbiediablo]

The question that has been discussed off and on, sometimes more frequently than other times, is: Was any DNA collected at the crime scene not of the victims but potentially of the killer/foreign party?

LE hasn't revealed that information although in other cases it has been revealed during the investigation. Considering the few descriptions we have of the crime scene, it certainly seems like it would be a challenge to collect such DNA in the environment. With that being said, it could take a good bit of time and lab work to get anything definitive.

I wonder if LE has asked anyone to submit their DNA. I haven't heard of that happening so far. Perhaps they didn't retrieve any foreign samples at the crime scene. Maybe they have but don't have any definitive results back as of yet.

I get the vibe that they haven't found any foreign DNA although one or more could have fought back. I could be off base and it could just be a time restraint so far. Either way, it's a pretty big aspect that could open up some doors.

MOO! Lab results are not all back. I'm guessing this is an acceptable MSM but it's reported elsewhere, too. I'm also guessing that LE might encourage DNA samples from certain people (or, like JR, who demanded that LE do their swab) but I'm more inclined to think they will surreptitiously obtain the DNA from their favorite suspect(s) once all the lab results are back. Then, if there's a match, they'll obtain a warrant. Moscow investigators still waiting for results from university stabbings crime scene

 

[Normamsmiley]

<modsnip-quoted post was removed>

I was part of a Greek organization - that depiction is not completely off. The “only hang out with x” is off, but there is definitely a code of protect your brothers that was mentioned. I often wonder how we would have acted in this situation. I realize the severity of the crimes, but would we, being young men 18-22, have been forthright with info? I’d like to think we would have, but we also lived a code to always protect a brother. It would not have been so straightforward.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

We don’t even know what they were talking about and definitely don’t know she was worried about it getting back to him.
We do know from multiple interviews it was completely in character for her to make repeated late night phone calls.

Revelry and a series of phone calls.
“She [AG] said that her sister frequently called people late at night — and often kept calling until they picked up — even if to ask a mundane question like what she ought to have for a meal.”

“She [AG] said that her sister frequently called people late at night — and often kept calling until they picked up

What about M? Was she also in the habit of making late night speed dial calls to her BFF's ex?

I am taking what was said literally, not what the parents thinks was meant by her words or why the sister thought she was making those late night calls. Parents who lose children often cling to what was closest to their child before the child died. With time and distance the parents begins to see clearer.


definitely don’t know she was worried
She sounded upset when she said "Maddie what did you say to Adam?"
M's answer? "I told Adam everything."

This was a very short time before those late night calls to J.

Think it over.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

1. The House

1.1 The house is very exposed with elevated viewing from the rear with open fences.

1.2 A person can view the occupants from the elevated position through bedroom windows from different angles.

1.3 The rear provides for rear parking in a public carpark overlooking the house, even with no good reason to be there.

1.4 The house has roads further back that provide escape by vehicle if pursued on foot. Many escape routes

1.5 The house is full of young unmarried desirable university girls

1.6 The house is a relatively notorious high profile party house

This house is a pervert stalkers dream house imo

1122 King Rd

1122 King Rd · 1122 King Rd, Moscow, ID 83843

1122 King Rd, Moscow, ID 83843

maps.app.goo.gl

The Car

2. While police have requested person(s) that were in the area on the night with a 2011-2013 2.1 Elantra to come forward, this is common of police without implying guilt. Police have only released a stock image of the car they want info about.

2.2 The vehicle is a non descript white vehicle with no apparent unique markings, confused with several different similar models, often used by criminals in crimes to evade police due to the numbers of the car on the road.

2.3 A service station attendant has released a phone camera, image of a computer screen image of a security camera image of a vehicle in the time frame, near the crime, speeding past the service station fitting the vehicle description.

2.3 The gas station car is interesting as it is plain jane, with what appears to be dark tinted windows to avoid identifying the occupants. The rest of the car is stock. This suggests premeditated evasion of police.

*Do note, the security camera timestamp could be one hour out due to daylight saving

Idaho murders: Cops take hours of video from gas station after clerk spots white car on night of stabbings

An Idaho gas station clerk says she found a white sedan on surveillance video taken on the night of a quadruple homicide nearby and sent it to police.

www.foxnews.com

The Knife

3.1 The knife police reportedly enquired about has specifically a single purpose. To kill. The knife style is purely designed for stabbing without snapping.

3.2 If the reports of police requests about the knife are true, the knife is as common as white Hyundai Elantras.

This also suggests premeditation and police evasion.

Police seek ‘Rambo’-style knife in probe of Idaho student murders: report

Police investigating the slaughter of four University of Idaho students have asked the manager of a local store owner whether he sold a “Rambo”-style knife known as KA-BAR to anyone.

nypost.com

On the surface, this would appear a premeditated crime with well versed police evasion imoo

-AIMOO-

*reference coming

King Road Homicides | Moscow, ID

www.ci.moscow.id.us

These are the things, that when put all together, make me lean towards a seasoned predator, as opposed to a drunk frat boy.

 

[Emerald1328]

I was part of a Greek organization - that depiction is not completely off. The “only hang out with x” is off, but there is definitely a code of protect your brothers that was mentioned. I often wonder how we would have acted in this situation. I realize the severity of the crimes, but would we, being young men 18-22, have been forthright with info? I’d like to think we would have, but we also lived a code to always protect a brother. It would not have been so straightforward.

Do you think that code would have immediately disintegrated if it was your brother that this happened to?

 

[debbiediablo]

We don’t even know what they were talking about and definitely don’t know she was worried about it getting back to him.
We do know from multiple interviews it was completely in character for her to make repeated late night phone calls.

Revelry and a series of phone calls.
“She [AG] said that her sister frequently called people late at night — and often kept calling until they picked up — even if to ask a mundane question like what she ought to have for a meal.”

This is entirely opinion. I think the girls let Murphy out to potty when they got home and left the kitchen slider open for him to come back in. They proceeded to eat their pasta. When the dog didn't come in after quite awhile they tried to call JdC to see if the dog had gone to visit his other owner. It's 200 feet that Murphy had likely walked dozens of times, and dogs can travel many, many miles over unknown territory to get home. But the dog wasn't with J either; the dog was enjoying some nice friendly dog treats somewhere close by, courtesy of the murderer.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Was the pic coming out intentional to ratchet up the heat on people they suspect or was the leak not from someone LE didn’t want out? If this is not the work of a SK, and it is a fledgling killer, doesn’t the killer really have to be a loner type or a very unusual individual? If it was someone who acted in a rage without premeditation, and if they’ve not killed before, how can someone go back to their family for Thanksgiving and Christmas, act normal, sleep, eat- how?

I can think of awful people who have parents who enable them- we’ve seen it play out in other news many times, where they have that sociopathic personality. if this is a stalker neighbor or someone they knew, how are they assimilating back with folks during the holidays?

if this is a stalker neighbor or someone they knew, how are they assimilating back with folks during the holidays?

If they were close to the victims, any abnormal behavior e.g. nightmares, sudden emotional reaction, crying, sudden outbursts of anger ect would be put down to grief by family members and friends.

JMO

 

[Normamsmiley]

Do you think that code would have immediately disintegrated if it was your brother that this happened to?

That’s a great question. In my experience in my fraternity, yes, we would all turn on a brother who killed a brother. However, we all got along for the most part. And then there is an even stronger level of friendship within the fraternity with your pledge class.

At the risk of sounding corny, the bond that is built while pledging is legit. I would have died for my pledge brothers and they would have for me. I’m not saying that reason, character, right/wrong go out the window… but you do protect each other and you protect the fraternity (I still cannot use the word frat). When I was pledging, an event happened to us where we could have walked away with millions by suing the local and national chapter, but we decided to say nothing and move on. We made that decision together as a pledge class.

If there was a murder and the entire fraternity knew something happened, I think it would have come out quick. But if it was only one or two people that knew something happened (particularly in the same pledge class) it could stay locked up for a long time - highly dependent on the individuals involved and whether protecting a brother was more important then justice for 4 individuals.