ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #1

[*JMO*]

Updated news report:
http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/16/search-deorr-lemhi-no-trace/30262877/

KTVB went back up to Stone Reservoir where divers were back in the water Thursday. The floor of this lake is very muddy, it has silt and dirt, so divers are trying to be as thorough as they can.

"You can see they are basically shoulder to shoulder," said Chief Deputy Steve Penner. "We are doing a visual."

A visual, as best they can in that mud, the divers are also using probes.

Down Timber Creek Road more family has arrived to support the boy's parents who are camping out.

DeOrr's father is still doing ATV searches of his own.

 

[JeannaT]

BBM
Video of campground, creek, and where parents went exploring (According to the reporter)
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/a-closer-look-the-campground-where-deorr-kunz-disappeared/

Of note on the video:
at 0:11 - shows creek flowing
at 0:51-1:05 - shows campsite area - last place DeOrr seen, steep dropoff to the creek
at 1:22 indicates direction where parents went off to explore - away from the campsite

It appears to me that the direction the reporter indicates the parents went is not near the creek; however, dad did state they were only gone about 10 minutes and on the way back he stopped by the creek, saw some minnows, & thought DeOrr might like to see them etc. -- so we know at some point dad was by the creek since he mentioned seeing the fish.

Thank you. That video was helpful. I too don't see the "bowl" the dad is referring to - it looks like that little one could have gone off in any direction and just kept walking. After 10 minutes, he's gone. Little boy, wearing camo.

 

[TxJan1971]

Dad said:

(thanks Aeronomy for the transcription - link below)

DK: It was me, but it, but they claim it was at 6:00 that evening and I, we, we still were with Search and Rescue until, what [turning to JM] a quarter till four?

JM: Yeah, from . . .

DK: We didn't never, we never . . . we haven't left the camp since 1:00 that afternoon. So it's just a lot of hearsay . . . and . . .

Transcription link:http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...2-Timber-Creek-Campground-10-July-2015/page20

My thoughts:

If dad/mom/DeOrr hadn't left the camp since 1:00 -- to me -- that appears to mean they would have gone to the store PRIOR to 1:00. (I'm unsure if it has ever been stated exactly what time they went there or how long it takes to drive from the store to the campground for timeline purpose).

Anyway, even if we assume they arrived at the campground at exactly 1:00, whatever they did from 1:00 to 2:00 hasn't been determined. However, dad specifically stated that at "about 2:00" is when they decided to go explore and that was the time DeOrr usually napped and DeOrr would be good at the campfire with Grandpa etc.

Dad's actual statement as transcribed by Aeronomy:

DK: He was playing with grandpop. He was over . . . he was getting ready for a nap. (??) It was almost, by that time it was almost two and he usually takes his nap. Um, we, we was just, yeah, we decided we were going to go a little exploring and he was going to be good with grandpa by the campfire. We weren't more than probably 50 . . .

JM: Ten minutes.

DK: Fifty yards away and ten minutes, uh, well, (??) the time we'd, I'd seen him to the point I'd figured out he was gone. And I come back up from the creek and I've actually seen . . . there were some things down by . . . a little minnow that I thought he would just love. So when I come back up to get him and I yelled over to grandpa, uh, "Where is," you know, "Where is little DeOrr?" he, immediately, shocked, he says, "I thought he came up to you."

**

So
1:00 they are all at the campground - "haven't left the camp since 1:00..."
2:00 mom/dad decide to go explore x 10 minutes (quote above)
2:10 they're at the creek/on their way back only to realize DeOrr is missing
2:30 They've been searching from 2:10 to 2:30 (20 min)
2:30 Dad drives down the road aways to get cell service
2:35 911 Call comes in

If the above timeline about 2:00 when dad/mom went to explore is accurate, DeOrr would have had to have disappeared anywhere from 2:00 to about 2:10 (if dad's timeline is accurate). 10 minutes is a small window for something nefarious to have happened.

Although probably unlikely, other than DeOrr wandering away, the only other thing that went through my mind is what if the family was at the store - let's say around 12:30 or 12:45, because they are apparently at the campsite at 1:00.

I wondered, who else was at the store at the time they were there or perhaps even in the parking lot? Could mom/dad have talked about going to the campground to the clerk or otherwise and someone overheard them, saw DeOrr crying? Could someone there have had bad intentions and followed them?? Followed them and maybe even watched from up above at the reservoir level? (Dad stated there was a road up above that folks could see down into the campground but they couldn't necessarily see up there).

JMO - thought I'd share some thoughts/timeline

 

[JeannaT]

No - Davis Paulides does not say that. He has purposely tried to keep any mention of Bigfoot out of the books. He does say that many of the disappearances are unexplained, and that there is a history of disappearances in National Parks and Forests that hasn't really been publicized as much as it should. What I got out of reading his book and in listening to his talks is the following:
- He is not sure what is going on other than that these disappearances have been happening in clusters since the 1800s.
- There is no National database for people who have gone missing in National Parks according to the National Parks Service - at least not one that is not accessible to the public.
- There are a lot more people that have gone missing than the general public is aware of.
- From what I can tell from what I have heard/read, it is rare that tracking dogs are able to locate the child/adult.
- That many times parents of children who go missing in National Parks believe that their child has been abducted or kidnapped and this belief will last a lifetime if the child or the child's remains are never recovered.
- As I stated before, these children go missing very quickly - you see them one minute and the next they are gone. It's like they are able to travel a distance more quickly that we think they can.
- That Deorr's disappearance follows the pattern of what he has found in the disappearance of children.
- That it would usually become apparent fairly quickly if the child was taken by a cougar or bear - there would be tracks or evidence.

IMO it is important that we are aware of these disappearances and the patterns. I hope this explains why I posted this information.

Thank you for this. I agree with so much of this. I literally can't remember a story where search dogs were successful in locating a missing person. I know LE Canine Units are great when they are looking for a suspect who they KNOW is currently in the area, and is an adult male, and finding them in a yard or a home where they suspect them to be is often successful. But any pet dog can do that. Anyone who has ever tried to play a game of hide and seek in their home knows that their dog is infallible in finding anyone hiding. BUT, Finding a wandering child after a couple days simply doesn't seem to happen.

Kids disappear lightening quick. If you got lucky and happened to be running in the actual direction they took off in, you're likely to find them quickly. If you guess wrong and hours go by before you accidentally hit on the actual direction they took off in, they're gone.

 

[taagean]

So, I guess the water is quite clear but the bottom is very muddy. Are they thinking Deorr may have sunk into the mud? I'm a little surprised the divers weren't in the water earlier but I guess they used their resources to try and find him alive. Thought I'd read that they had searched the reservoir earlier, but I suppose the dogs hitting there a second time was enough for a better search.

 

[concernedmother]

Dad said:

(thanks Aeronomy for the transcription - link below)

DK: It was me, but it, but they claim it was at 6:00 that evening and I, we, we still were with Search and Rescue until, what [turning to JM] a quarter till four?

JM: Yeah, from . . .

DK: We didn't never, we never . . . we haven't left the camp since 1:00 that afternoon. So it's just a lot of hearsay . . . and . . .

Transcription link:http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...2-Timber-Creek-Campground-10-July-2015/page20

My thoughts:

If dad/mom/DeOrr hadn't left the camp since 1:00 -- to me -- that appears to mean they would have gone to the store PRIOR to 1:00. (I'm unsure if it has ever been stated exactly what time they went there or how long it takes to drive from the store to the campground for timeline purpose).

Anyway, even if we assume they arrived at the campground at exactly 1:00, whatever they did from 1:00 to 2:00 hasn't been determined. However, dad specifically stated that at "about 2:00" is when they decided to go explore and that was the time DeOrr usually napped and DeOrr would be good at the campfire with Grandpa etc.

Dad's actual statement as transcribed by Aeronomy:

DK: He was playing with grandpop. He was over . . . he was getting ready for a nap. (??) It was almost, by that time it was almost two and he usually takes his nap. Um, we, we was just, yeah, we decided we were going to go a little exploring and he was going to be good with grandpa by the campfire. We weren't more than probably 50 . . .

JM: Ten minutes.

DK: Fifty yards away and ten minutes, uh, well, (??) the time we'd, I'd seen him to the point I'd figured out he was gone. And I come back up from the creek and I've actually seen . . . there were some things down by . . . a little minnow that I thought he would just love. So when I come back up to get him and I yelled over to grandpa, uh, "Where is," you know, "Where is little DeOrr?" he, immediately, shocked, he says, "I thought he came up to you."

**

So
1:00 they are all at the campground - "haven't left the camp since 1:00..."
2:00 mom/dad decide to go explore x 10 minutes (quote above)
2:10 they're at the creek/on their way back only to realize DeOrr is missing
2:30 They've been searching from 2:10 to 2:30 (20 min)
2:30 Dad drives down the road aways to get cell service
2:35 911 Call comes in

If the above timeline about 2:00 when dad/mom went to explore is accurate, DeOrr would have had to have disappeared anywhere from 2:00 to about 2:10 (if dad's timeline is accurate). 10 minutes is a small window for something nefarious to have happened.

Although probably unlikely, other than DeOrr wandering away, the only other thing that went through my mind is what if the family was at the store - let's say around 12:30 or 12:45, because they are apparently at the campsite at 1:00.

I wondered, who else was at the store at the time they were there or perhaps even in the parking lot? Could mom/dad have talked about going to the campground to the clerk or otherwise and someone overheard them, saw DeOrr crying? Could someone there have had bad intentions and followed them?? Followed them and maybe even watched from up above at the reservoir level? (Dad stated there was a road up above that folks could see down into the campground but they couldn't necessarily see up there).

JMO - thought I'd share some thoughts/timeline

I was thinking about that last night. That someone may have seen the little boy at the store. Looking at that terrain I don't see how anyone could have snatched him and got the hell out of dodge so quick. But they should review the store video to see who was in there. Another thing. Deorr must have left when the parents did for gp to have thought he went with the parents. jmo

 

[Elainera]

BBM
Video of campground, creek, and where parents went exploring (According to the reporter)
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/a-closer-look-the-campground-where-deorr-kunz-disappeared/

Of note on the video:
at 0:11 - shows creek flowing
at 0:51-1:05 - shows campsite area - last place DeOrr seen, steep dropoff to the creek
at 1:22 indicates direction where parents went off to explore - away from the campsite

It appears to me that the direction the reporter indicates the parents went is not near the creek; however, dad did state they were only gone about 10 minutes and on the way back he stopped by the creek, saw some minnows, & thought DeOrr might like to see them etc. -- so we know at some point dad was by the creek since he mentioned seeing the fish.

Yes that is the video I was referring to. But I can not, by just looking at it, discern how strong the current is. Maybe someone with more experience can voice an opinion?

Is it at all likely that he would have been swept away in it?

 

[ninij9]

I have a question regarding the creek. I know they say they searched it high and low, it's not very deep at all, and are "100%" sure he's not in it, but I wonder how strong is the current in that creek? I think the most likely scenario is still that he is in the creek and was overlooked, or was washed away further than they estimated. He only weighs 28 pounds.

The parents went down the path to the creek to explore, Deorr stayed behind with his grandpa. His mom said that he's more the clingy type iirc, I think it's likely that at one point he decided to go after mom and dad and toddled off in the direction he saw them leave, and then went down to the creek at a different spot as his parents were. It looked very steep, the reporter in one video even pointed out that it is indeed very steep to go down to the creek, he might have fallen, tumbled down, was knocked out, and drowned instantly.

Possible?

This to me is the most likely scenerio. I recall from a search in the Baby Ember thread when a reporter was searching clear Creek he demonstrated with his foot how a very small child can get wedged UNDER slab type rocks in the creek bed. Even if the creek is under 2 feet deep. I keep thinking of this. I don't care how many times they searched the water. He could still be in creek.

Now if he's up in the reservoir, then he may have been put there.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[TxJan1971]

So, I guess the water is quite clear but the bottom is very muddy. Are they thinking Deorr may have sunk into the mud? I'm a little surprised the divers weren't in the water earlier but I guess they used their resources to try and find him alive. Thought I'd read that they had searched the reservoir earlier, but I suppose the dogs hitting there a second time was enough for a better search.

They apparently were in the water previously - I think this is their second try.

"Meanwhile, dive teams scoured nearby Timber Creek and Stone reservoir but did not recover anything.
The boy's worried father said he still wonders if that is where his little boy is.
Kunz Sr said: '[The sheriff] assured me there is 100 percent chance he is not anywhere in or near that water.'
'They have torn that creek upside down and inside out. Divers have gone in with wetsuits along with the helicopter.'"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-campground-asks-leads-boy.html#ixzz3g038oKnX

 

[tiffay01]

I was thinking about that last night. That someone may have seen the little boy at the store. Looking at that terrain I don't see how anyone could have snatched him and got the hell out of dodge so quick. But they should review the store video to see who was in there. Another thing. Deorr must have left when the parents did for gp to have thought he went with the parents. jmo

Has there been any confirmation, that the store had video surveillance cameras? If so I would think LE would already have the footage, right?

 

[ninij9]

BBM
Video of campground, creek, and where parents went exploring (According to the reporter)
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/a-closer-look-the-campground-where-deorr-kunz-disappeared/

Of note on the video:
at 0:11 - shows creek flowing
at 0:51-1:05 - shows campsite area - last place DeOrr seen, steep dropoff to the creek
at 1:22 indicates direction where parents went off to explore - away from the campsite

It appears to me that the direction the reporter indicates the parents went is not near the creek; however, dad did state they were only gone about 10 minutes and on the way back he stopped by the creek, saw some minnows, & thought DeOrr might like to see them etc. -- so we know at some point dad was by the creek since he mentioned seeing the fish.

Wow. I didn't imagine Creek was SO close. And that steep drop down into Creek was frightening to see. I wouldn't have even made camp there with a two year old (but that's just me). I'm sure he fell and was swept downstream with the current. They have to get in the creek and keep searching.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[katydid23]

Has there been any confirmation, that the store had video surveillance cameras? If so I would think LE would already have the footage, right?

I doubt they had surveillance cams. I think it was a very small mom and pop store in a very remote area. I could be wrong though.

 

[ninij9]

Updated news report:
http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/16/search-deorr-lemhi-no-trace/30262877/

KTVB went back up to Stone Reservoir where divers were back in the water Thursday. The floor of this lake is very muddy, it has silt and dirt, so divers are trying to be as thorough as they can.

"You can see they are basically shoulder to shoulder," said Chief Deputy Steve Penner. "We are doing a visual."

A visual, as best they can in that mud, the divers are also using probes.

Down Timber Creek Road more family has arrived to support the boy's parents who are camping out.

DeOrr's father is still doing ATV searches of his own.

I thought dad said it was clear. So clear you could see the bottom from a helicopter. If its muddy, why were they so sure he wasn't there so early on? I still think he's in the creek.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[katydid23]

They apparently were in the water previously - I think this is their second try.

"Meanwhile, dive teams scoured nearby Timber Creek and Stone reservoir but did not recover anything.
The boy's worried father said he still wonders if that is where his little boy is.
Kunz Sr said: '[The sheriff] assured me there is 100 percent chance he is not anywhere in or near that water.'
'They have torn that creek upside down and inside out. Divers have gone in with wetsuits along with the helicopter.'"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-campground-asks-leads-boy.html#ixzz3g038oKnX

Hey TXJan. Good to see you and your helpful timelines. Sorry it is such a sad case again though. Such a sweet looking little guy. :candle:

When I read the assurances from the divers it made me think of the recent tragic case of Omarion. They searched the lake for 4 days, looked extensively and swore he was NOT in the lake. And a week later they found him right there. SO SAD.

 

[TxJan1971]

Hey TXJan. Good to see you and your helpful timelines. Sorry it is such a sad case again though. Such a sweet looking little guy. :candle:

When I read the assurances from the divers it made me think of the recent tragic case of Omarion. They searched the lake for 4 days, looked extensively and swore he was NOT in the lake. And a week later they found him right there. SO SAD.

Thanks for your kind comments. I'm not familiar with the case of Omarion. Looks like I have to google.

Another thought I just thought about. Although this is probably unlikely, has anyone previously mentioned whether anyone did a quick to see how many RSO's are in the immediate area or chomos just let out of prison? Couldn't hurt. One never knows what those cretins are capable of. Kind of like considering a two prong investigation while trying to rule out the most likely?

 

[Penelope]

BBM
Video of campground, creek, and where parents went exploring (According to the reporter)
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/a-closer-look-the-campground-where-deorr-kunz-disappeared/

Thank you for posting this video. I am not sure how many people were near that campsite that day, but I image this location is similar to many of the locations that the children talked about in Dave Poulides' Missing 411 books. I see that there is a large open field one one side of the campground - the other side is where the trees and the creek are. As one other poster stated, the child could have tried to follow his parents and wandered into the bush or creek area - that seems like the most logical direction he would have gone in. What happened to him afterwards is the question. Did he wander away, or was he lured away by someone or something? I imagine little Deorr's parents are heartsick and wish they could turn back time… they must be thinking of the "what ifs"… what if we took him with us… what if we stayed and didn't leave him with Grandpa. How very sad.

 

[katydid23]

Thanks for your kind comments. I'm not familiar with the case of Omarion. Looks like I have to google.

Another thought I just thought about. Although this is probably unlikely, has anyone previously mentioned whether anyone did a quick to see how many RSO's are in the immediate area or chomos just let out of prison? Couldn't hurt. One never knows what those cretins are capable of. Kind of like considering a two prong investigation while trying to rule out the most likely?

link;
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/07/omarion_humphrey_was_in_lake_c.html

Omarion Humphrey was in lake the entire time he was missing, police say

 

[TxJan1971]

Thanks Katydid for the link about Omarion.

FWIW, not sure if this body float chart would be helpful to anyone. I was just looking at it and figured I'd put it out there. I seem to recall someone may have asked about it much earlier in this thread. If nothing else, it's informational. I remember we referred to this for Dylan (RIP beautiful boy of ours...)

http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/Tr...float_info.pdf

 

[StormyNights]

link;
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/07/omarion_humphrey_was_in_lake_c.html

Omarion Humphrey was in lake the entire time he was missing, police say

This is exactly what I was just thinking about!! This is one example, but how many times have bodies of water been "cleared" only to have missing person end up found in that same "cleared" water? Too many.....I would think that LE or S&R would NEVER clear a body of water unless/until that person is found. Seeing how fast that current is and that steep drop....it made my heart sink. I really feel like he is in that water, somewhere. Poor sweetheart.....I always hold out some hope that each missing person is found alive, no matter what the circumstances are. MOO! That being said, I hope and pray he is found, no matter what.

 

[ClaireNC]

I doubt they had surveillance cams. I think it was a very small mom and pop store in a very remote area. I could be wrong though.

I think you are right, katydid23. Also we don't know if LE have started any type of investigation beyond the search of the campground and surrounding area. There has been no indication that they have.

I'm surprised that one of the news stations hasn't done an interview of the store clerk or anybody else that may have seen them prior to DeOrr's disappearance.