ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #10

[Arnie M]

.

Allow me to drift off topic to this news report that has many similarities to this case

--- family and friends at the beach
--- several children and several parents all together
--- nobody noticed when a 4 year old "went missing"
--- frantic night-long search on land and in the water
--- fears of an abduction , amber alerts issued
--- witnesses report suspicious activity between a man and boy near the washroom
--- the mother handed out posters all over the area
--- a day later the child was found drowned 100 yards from shore
--- police believe the drowning was accidental

http://news.yahoo.com/missing-4-old-boys-body-found-san-diego-211444839.html

 

[Sillybilly]

Don't know how long IR has lived in his current apartment, but that address seems to have a history of housing some SOs (5 that I can find, with at least one of whom lived in Apt 2 that IR now lives). Also there was another man who lived in the same Apt as IR who was charged with 1st degree murder after having shaken a baby. It is possible (whether probable?) that one of these unsavory peeps somehow became familiar with IR, thus Deorr, and gained knowledge of the family and IR going on the camping trip.

 

[giagreen]

Don't know how long IR has lived in his current apartment, but that address seems to have a history of housing some SOs (5 that I can find, with at least one of whom lived in Apt 2 that IR now lives). Also there was another man who lived in the same Apt as IR who was charged with 1st degree murder after having shaken a baby. It is possible (whether probable?) that one of these unsavory peeps somehow became familiar with IR, thus Deorr, and gained knowledge of the family and IR going on the camping trip.

Or even stopped by the camp site while the parents where on their walk mayne?

 

[katydid23]

IR could not walk far enough away with the baby to have him vanish such that the search of a 2.5-3 mile circumference would not locate him and have IR get back to the campsite - all within 20 to 45 minutes. I do not think IR was involved with a kidnapping.

We don't know if he had access to a 4 wheeler or a mountain bike or a vehicle.

Or maybe he hid the evidence and then walked away , while pretending to search and went outside the boundaries.

We don't even know if he was back at the campsite within 20 to 45 minutes.

As far as I know, the parents were away longer than the 10 minute estimate. I think that if IR took the boy during that period of time, he'd have enough time to walk for quite a ways and hide/bury/camoflauge something. Then come back later on a 'search' and move it further away.

Did he have a backpack? If he carried the evidence away in a backpack the scent dogs would not pick up the scent, IMO.

 

[katydid23]

When I look at the timeline, I think that IR would have had plenty of time to move past the search quadrant area.

GGP looked away, looked back, and the boy had vanished. If IR had nabbed him at that moment, then he had a huge window of time before any of the first responders even arrived.

I looked up the time table for a man walking briskly:


Most of us walk briskly at about 3.5 miles per hour which takes about 17 minutes per mile or about 85 minutes for 5 miles. The faster your pace (MPH), the faster you can walk the 5 miles. If you walk at a pace of 4 MPH, then you will take 15 minutes to walk one mile or 11/4 hours to walk 5 miles.
Seriously-you-want-me-to-walk-how-many-steps-per
www.mynetdiary.com/seriously-you-want-me-to-walk-how-many-steps-per...

So he could have walked past the search area and returned BEFORE any of the searchers arrived and around the same time the family called 911. At that point he would have gone on a 'search' and gone back to check to make sure he did not leave anything incriminating.

 

[ILOKAL]

.

Allow me to drift off topic to this news report that has many similarities to this case

--- family and friends at the beach
--- several children and several parents all together
--- nobody noticed when a 4 year old "went missing"
--- frantic night-long search on land and in the water
--- fears of an abduction , amber alerts issued
--- witnesses report suspicious activity between a man and boy near the washroom
--- the mother handed out posters all over the area
--- a day later the child was found drowned 100 yards from shore
--- police believe the drowning was accidental

http://news.yahoo.com/missing-4-old-boys-body-found-san-diego-211444839.html

Oh my, that is SO sad. This was his first time to the beach. During recovery another drowning victim was also found?! There must have been a rip current because 100 yards is pretty far for a four year old to be swimming. We live at the gulf and go to the beach often with our 7-yr old grandson. Although he's a great swimmer, he is always required to wear a life jacket because the waves and currents are ever changing. He often pesters me to let him take it off but the answer is always the same. I am no longer a strong enough swimmer to rescue him if he needed help and I recognize that. So many people are just not aware of the dangers.

ETA: I wonder if the other body they recovered was someone who tried to save the little boy and drowned in the process?

 

[Arnie M]

.

Took me a while to find this 2010 missing person article , a 14 year old teen left a party and did not show up at home and his body was found 3 months later. I bring this up because he was found in an area that SAR with dogs had covered.

His uncle (I know him) said he is still wracked with guilt , he wanted to search the area again and was told (by SAR) that the kid was not there. Not to find fault but we must keep in mind that things can be missed by even the "professionals"

First report
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/boy-14-missing-after-house-party-1.970810

(next day news) .... Approximately 80 people — including 35 RCMP officers and four canine units from Manitoba Search and Rescue — resumed the search Wednesday.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/search-resumes-for-missing-teen-1.936002

Body found 3 months later in area previously searched
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/missing-man-teen-s-body-identified-1.943290

It should be noted that temperatures had been below freezing and he most likely died the first night (alcohol was involved)

 

[iluvmua]

If the parents truly think he was kidnapped then WHY are they not in front of camera pleading for his safe return???

I don't think IR had anything to do with this.

I just don't get the parents mindset at all. at all.

JMO

 

[shellbythesea]

Don't know how long IR has lived in his current apartment, but that address seems to have a history of housing some SOs (5 that I can find, with at least one of whom lived in Apt 2 that IR now lives). Also there was another man who lived in the same Apt as IR who was charged with 1st degree murder after having shaken a baby. It is possible (whether probable?) that one of these unsavory peeps somehow became familiar with IR, thus Deorr, and gained knowledge of the family and IR going on the camping trip.

I live in that area and know where his house is. It is in a part of town where offenders (all different kinds) live.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

If the parents truly think he was kidnapped then WHY are they not in front of camera pleading for his safe return???

I don't think IR had anything to do with this.

I just don't get the parents mindset at all. at all.

JMO

I don't think Deorr was abducted, so I am glad the parents are not in front of the media. I like that they aren't making a spectacle, claiming that some crazed madman stalked their family at a campground, or someone stole Deorr for an underground adoption ring. Yes, the PI has said some stuff in interviews with one local media outlet, but there hasn't been any big PR campaign to try to change public perception.

It makes me lean more towards Deorr being lost because I think parents, who had something to do with their child's death, would be delusional and self-centered enough to try to point the public towards an abduction theory. I also commend them in a way, for not being all over the media, implying that IR took Deorr. They went camping with a man who has a criminal record and is not related to their family. They could easily throw him under the bus and have not.

 

[neesaki]

Don't know how long IR has lived in his current apartment, but that address seems to have a history of housing some SOs (5 that I can find, with at least one of whom lived in Apt 2 that IR now lives). Also there was another man who lived in the same Apt as IR who was charged with 1st degree murder after having shaken a baby. It is possible (whether probable?) that one of these unsavory peeps somehow became familiar with IR, thus Deorr, and gained knowledge of the family and IR going on the camping trip.

He moved from the house to an apartment recently? Very interesting find, I also think this theory is highly possible.

 

[rkf]

Don't know how long IR has lived in his current apartment, but that address seems to have a history of housing some SOs (5 that I can find, with at least one of whom lived in Apt 2 that IR now lives). Also there was another man who lived in the same Apt as IR who was charged with 1st degree murder after having shaken a baby. It is possible (whether probable?) that one of these unsavory peeps somehow became familiar with IR, thus Deorr, and gained knowledge of the family and IR going on the camping trip.

I've wondered all along if IR ever met DeOrr. If JM is ggp's caretaker, did she take DeOrr Jr with her when she was working at her mother's house? Did IR ever come to visit ggp? We've heard repeatedly that JM and DK met IR for the first time at the campsite, but is it possible that IR met little DeOrr when visiting ggp? If so, how would he meet the baby, but not his mother? I don't actually think IR had anything to do with DeOrr's disappearance, but keeping an open mind.

 

[desert-blue]

I don't think Deorr was abducted, so I am glad the parents are not in front of the media. I like that they aren't making a spectacle, claiming that some crazed madman stalked their family at a campground, or someone stole Deorr for an underground adoption ring. Yes, the PI has said some stuff in interviews with one local media outlet, but there hasn't been any big PR campaign to try to change public perception.

It makes me lean more towards Deorr being lost because I think parents, who had something to do with their child's death, would be delusional and self-centered enough to try to point the public towards an abduction theory. I also commend them in a way, for not being all over the media, implying that IR took Deorr. They went camping with a man who has a criminal record and is not related to their family. They could easily throw him under the bus and have not.

BBM: Isn't that exactly what they are doing?

From the latest interview three days ago: "The family believes little DeOrr was abducted from the Timber Creek Campground in Leadore on July 10."

source: http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/09/deorr-kunz-family-remains-hopeful-two-months-after-toddler-disappeared/

 

[rkf]

I don't think Deorr was abducted, so I am glad the parents are not in front of the media. I like that they aren't making a spectacle, claiming that some crazed madman stalked their family at a campground, or someone stole Deorr for an underground adoption ring. Yes, the PI has said some stuff in interviews with one local media outlet, but there hasn't been any big PR campaign to try to change public perception.

It makes me lean more towards Deorr being lost because I think parents, who had something to do with their child's death, would be delusional and self-centered enough to try to point the public towards an abduction theory. I also commend them in a way, for not being all over the media, implying that IR took Deorr. They went camping with a man who has a criminal record and is not related to their family. They could easily throw him under the bus and have not.

I feel like the PI is acting as the parents' spokesman, so anything he says is a reflection of the parents' beliefs. Of course I could be wrong, but IIRC, the parents/family were the first (and only) to say they believed DeOrr had been abducted, in spite of the sheriff's dismissal of that scenario. The PI continues to pursue theories of abduction. If the parents no longer believe their child was abducted, I would not expect them to say they believe he was abducted in their 2 month statement, nor would I expect them to continue to "employ" a PI who was floating that idea despite the parents not working with national MSM to get his photo and story distributed. http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...hopeful-two-months-after-toddler-disappeared/

 

[rkf]

Do we know where the family's campsite was located? It seems the Timber Creek Campground marker on Google maps is closer than 1/4 mile from the reservoir. I'm trying to get a sense of where everyone was in relation to each other and the reservoir/creek.

The parents were upstream or downstream from IR? (Downstream is closer to the reservoir.) Was GGP sitting at the campfire? How close was the campfire to the parents/IR? Per DK, there was no way they (JM and DK) could have not seen DeOrr given the closed-in nature of the area. Does that mean the adults were able to see each other the entire time? If they could see each other, but not DeOrr, he would have had to go in the opposite direction. That seems unlikely, given his attachment to his parents, but he could have gotten turned around and thought he was heading toward them. I want to create a map showing where everyone was to see where gaps in sightline would have existed and which direction the toddler could have gone without being seen by anyone. Photos attached.

 

[iluvmua]

IMO, I think that IF they think IR would have abducted Deorr than I don't think they would hold back. jmo.

and from the timeline we have I don't think he would have had time to abduct him and do whatever with him given that he was 150 feet away at the creek fishing.

jmo

 

[ReadySet]

Hello, another Idahoan here; although I live in another part of the state. I don't really have anything to add, mostly I have questions

Are the parents, LE, and the public defining "abduction" the same way? To me, abductors could include anyone--strangers, people known to any of the POI, people the POI saw recently, etc. So when the parents say "abducted," maybe they don't mean an unknown person.

Another little vocabulary question: What is meant by a "camper?" To me, a camper is a simple or more extensive shell attached to the bed of a pickup. If it's something you're pulling, it's a trailer, or maybe a camp trailer. Was GGP pulling a little trailer?

I am still not sure how to post; apologies if I posted incorrectly!​

 

[rkf]

With the timeline we've been given, I agree that IR could not have kidnapped him. However, the parents, who are the ones who have given the timeline, do seem to think their child may have been abducted. If IR didn't have time to kidnap him, how did someone else have time? We don't know anything about IR's movements immediately after Deorr went missing. It's been said that he was fishing around the time that Deorr went missing but beyond that nothing much has been said as far as I can recall? We don't know if he helped search for Deorr or if he just went home to Idaho Falls, or what exactly he did in the minutes and hours after the 911 calls.

I've never really had the feeling IR was involved but I guess I've been trying to find a way to explain the family's theory that Deorr was abducted and also make sense of them getting word out only to local news stations and not trying to bring in more search teams to look for him. Although, if they think IR abducted him and somehow sold him to an underground adoption company, I would think they would want national or even international news coverage, which hasn't been the case.

I guess I'm at a loss again. I have no idea what happened. I hope that the FBI releases some information soon.

Could he have gone home? He rode with ggp, so unless they hooked the camper up to the Suburban and they both went back to IF, I'd think IR would have had to stay in the area. If IR didn't help search when the parents started frantically searching for DeOrr, what does that mean? Did IR ever see DeOrr at the campground? If so, it seems odd that he wouldn't help look for the toddler. If he never saw him, would he decide right away that looking for a boy he had never seen would be fruitless? That seems kind of cold and calculating to me - he would either have to believe the child was never at the campground or be completely unsympathetic to the parents' and his friend's plight. He was so uncommitted in his doorway interview, I can't tell what he actually saw/knows. Sounded like he was trying to stick to the "party line", but which party?

 

[iluvmua]

Did anybody read the EIN facebook page? the father (deorr) responded to a comment about why it is so hard to look directly at the camera.

 

[ILOKAL]

Do we know where the family's campsite was located? It seems the Timber Creek Campground marker on Google maps is closer than 1/4 mile from the reservoir. I'm trying to get a sense of where everyone was in relation to each other and the reservoir/creek.

The parents were upstream or downstream from IR? (Downstream is closer to the reservoir.) Was GGP sitting at the campfire? How close was the campfire to the parents/IR? Per DK, there was no way they (JM and DK) could have not seen DeOrr given the closed-in nature of the area. Does that mean the adults were able to see each other the entire time? If they could see each other, but not DeOrr, he would have had to go in the opposite direction. That seems unlikely, given his attachment to his parents, but he could have gotten turned around and thought he was heading toward them. I want to create a map showing where everyone was to see where gaps in sightline would have existed and which direction the toddler could have gone without being seen by anyone. Photos attached.

View attachment 81479View attachment 81480View attachment 81481

A map would be great. There have been some posted but they didn't seem to lay everything out. I DO wonder though about the ridge (not sure if that's what it's called) that little Deorr would have had to (or perhaps DID) climb over and then go down to get to the creek where his parents were. If that is the case and his parents were down below, how could they see him and GGPA at the camp site and how could GGPA and little Deorr see the parents? Something is confusing and I'm not sure what it is. Also, just because the distance between all of the parties was not very far doesn't necessarily mean there was a clear view. I would like to see what obstacles were there. Hopefully the re-enactment will add clarity. I just think what we may be envisioning might not be the actual layout and that's why it is difficult to understand.