ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #13

[TeaTime]

Normally, two types of investigation start at the beginning of a missing child/adult case (missing person and criminal). They will run parallel investigations until it is decided which way they are led by the evidence and other factors then they will lump it together under the same heading. They don't want to miss critical steps for a criminal proceeding by ignoring the possibility.

BBM

I posted the same thoughts but my post doesn't show up. Parallel investigations - LE 101.

 

[ReadySet]

It must be a massive challenge to launch an all out SAR effort for a missing toddler and at the same time treat it like a crime scene. JMO

Excellent Post.

 

[ReadySet]

When a child goes missing in a campground, imo, one has to treat it as if the child is lost. It is imperative that the search begins immediately for a child walking away and lost in the woods. It is the only way the chid can be saved if that is what happened. The other options can be investigated later. If a child was abducted then it is sad it takes a bit longer to check that situation out. But it is much less likely that the child lost scenario, imo.

Good point

 

[neesaki]

Thank you so much Onebest for your informative reply. Like I said, I coincidentally came across the site yesterday that you recommended to a poster up thread today, The Hound and The Found. What a fascinating and educational site. Just amazing! After reading some of the information there, I realized that the training for an SAR team must be quite lengthy and involved in order to learn all those variances and conditions. It's simply so very generous and loving to give of yourself and your time to help those who so desperately need you. It's an honor and a pleasure to have "met" you.

Wow, Onebest...I have such admiration for all you give to people...all of you. Thank you for your dedication, time, belief.....etc. What breed(s) are your dogs?

Yes, I just want to second this... Thank you so much Onebest. I, as I believe most of us here do as well, so much appreciate your expertise and input and all that you do, and have nothing but absolute respect and admiration for SAR and everyone associated with that commendable cause. You guys, all of you, the handlers and those amazing dogs.... I am truly in awe. :loveyou:

 

[Onebest]

Wow, Onebest...I have such admiration for all you give to people...all of you. Thank you for your dedication, time, belief.....etc. What breed(s) are your dogs?

I have 2 German Shepherds. Our K9 Team altogether has 4 German Shepherds and a Blood Hound. Thank you for your very kind words. It is an honor.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

It occurred to me that evidence from the drones could also be important in the event of a civil case brought by the parents. If DeOrr should be found in the forest and his cause of death can be determined, it might indicate liability against the government.

Sue the government? Civil case? They have zero grounds for a lawsuit regardless of where little DeOrr is found, imo.

 

[ReadySet]

If, for example, DeOrr was taken and killed by a mountain lion and no warnings about the presence and dangers of mountain lions were posted, the government could be held liable. There are previous cases in California for the same thing.

That is very interesting. Did these cases in CA involve a toddler going missing at a campground, searched for and not found at first, then found and determined to be killed by a lion?

 

[ILOKAL]

That is very interesting. Did these cases in CA involve a toddler going missing at a campground, searched for and not found at first, then found and determined to be killed by a lion?

Children who were attacked by mountain lions while on government property where there was no warning that Mountain Lions were a threat. There may also have been an adult but I'm not certain.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

The "evidence" the FBI is unable to test might be the soiled diaper since they don't test urine or feces. Just a guess on my part. Did the sheriff make any statement about the behavior analysis? From the time the sheriff first announced that he had requested the assistance of the FBI, he stated that the FBI report would be key to solving this case (or words to that affect), yet at this point in time, that no longer seems to be the case. Everything seems to be back to Square One. IMO

They would not have bothered retrieving or giving the diaper to the FBI. The grandmother threw it away in the church garbage (so she said at least) which was a long time after he went missing. It would have served no purpose since they weren't having to prove DeOrr Jr.'s identity.

If evidence was too degraded or had been compromised, they wouldn't be able to test it. The FBI may have decided it wasn't worth testing because it had no real value to the case.

Here is the only comment he made in the interview last week about behavioral analysis:

09:36
SB: Well, I can tell you that all four people have taken polygraphs. I’m not willing to discuss um um the uh…the findings of those polygraphs at this point. Uh we’re um having some including the FBI look at the results just to give us uh their impression and uh, you know um those are difficult uh interviews and uh you know the polygraph uh experts uh, you know, sometimes they don’t agree, so…uh we’re looking at those real close and we’re doing a behavioral analysis based on their statements uh at the time of their interview.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=12122056#post12122056

I don't think SB and Bonneville County are back at square one. SB said he was going there to discuss where to take the case. I believe him.

 

[ReadySet]

Children who were attacked by mountain lions while on government property where there was no warning that Mountain Lions were a threat. There may also have been an adult but I'm not certain.

Would like to read about those cases, do you have a link?

 

[ILOKAL]

​

Would like to read about those cases, do you have a link?

Nope, but you can google for them the way I did.

 

[ILOKAL]

They would not have bothered retrieving or giving the diaper to the FBI. The grandmother threw it away in the church garbage (so she said at least) which was a long time after he went missing. It would have served no purpose since they weren't having to prove DeOrr Jr.'s identity.

If evidence was too degraded or had been compromised, they wouldn't be able to test it. The FBI may have decided it wasn't worth testing because it had no real value to the case.

Here is the only comment he made in the interview last week about behavioral analysis:

09:36
SB: Well, I can tell you that all four people have taken polygraphs. I’m not willing to discuss um um the uh…the findings of those polygraphs at this point. Uh we’re um having some including the FBI look at the results just to give us uh their impression and uh, you know um those are difficult uh interviews and uh you know the polygraph uh experts uh, you know, sometimes they don’t agree, so…uh we’re looking at those real close and we’re doing a behavioral analysis based on their statements uh at the time of their interview.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=12122056#post12122056

I don't think SB and Bonneville County are back at square one. SB said he was going there to discuss where to take the case. I believe him.

Well then, there you HAVE it!!

 

[ReadySet]

Nope, but you can google for them the way I did.

Oh, ok, thought you had the reference handy since you brought up a possible civil suit by parents. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[ReadySet]

Little Deorr deserves to be home. He is out there somewhere, likely alone. I hope that if anyone has the power to bring him home, they do so. Thinking of you tonight, and my heart is breaking for you, Deorr.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Well then, there you HAVE it!!

Have what?

 

[giagreen]

​

Nope, but you can google for them the way I did.

Google? Wazzz dat? Jk
I know what your talking about. I've googled mountain lions enough I've bumped into a few law suits. That one little boy was attacked by one while walking with his family from a restaurant to their car!!! I'd share a link but nobody cares what I got to say anyways.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Children who were attacked by mountain lions while on government property where there was no warning that Mountain Lions were a threat. There may also have been an adult but I'm not certain.

I checked and only found one lawsuit brought back in 1991 for Laura Small. She was mauled in the presence of witnesses and they could prove the attack was actually from a mountain lion. It also appears there wasn't negligence on the part of the mother.

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-10-22/news/mn-48511_1_lion-attacks

There is no way to prove DeOrr was carried off by a mountain lion or any other animal even if he was found out in the wilderness and his bones showed definite animal activity (which one would expect). If he had wandered deep into the woods on his own because no one was watching him and was attacked, the animal wasn't at fault and the park service is guilty of nothing.

 

[giagreen]

I checked and only found one lawsuit brought back in 1991 for Laura Small. She was mauled in the presence of witnesses and they could prove the attack was actually from a mountain lion. It also appears there wasn't negligence on the part of the mother.

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-10-22/news/mn-48511_1_lion-attacks

There is no way to prove DeOrr was carried off by a mountain lion or any other animal even if he was found out in the wilderness and his bones showed definite animal activity (which one would expect). If he had wandered deep into the woods on his own because no one was watching him and was attacked, the animal wasn't at fault and the park service is guilty of nothing.

http://www.mountainlion.org/newsroom_article.asp?news_id=214


http://law.justia.com/cases/california/court-of-appeal/4th/34/755.html

http://survivalblog.com/guest-artic...hildren-and-pets-part-1-by-william-e-simpson/

There are others. Here are two others. I honestly don't want to reread all I did just to find more. I spent days reading all that. I know there are more because I read them while researching mountain lions. Something everyone wants to dismiss yet refuses to take a look at. If I understand right the problem is people want to banned hunting them. And that only makes it more likely people will now be attacked by them.
Of course most lawsuits have been dismissed but its only a matter of time before it becomes a bigger problem IMO. I live in Wisconsin and mountain lions are now becoming known over here because they are branching out they don't have food and they are hungry. Its actually becoming a problem and more lawsuits are sure to come with time. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Rayemonde]

That is very interesting. Did these cases in CA involve a toddler going missing at a campground, searched for and not found at first, then found and determined to be killed by a lion?

The county banned minors from Caspers after 5-year-old Laura Small and 6-year-old Justin Mellon were attacked by mountain lions in separate 1986 incidents.

Laura's family sued the county, alleging that rangers were negligent in failing to warn campers of increased mountain lion activity. The family won a $2-million judgment in 1991, and the case was eventually settled for $1.5 million...

The move [to lift the ban on minors in the park] was spurred in part by a Santa Barbara case involving a mountain lion attack on a youngster in Gaviota State Park in 1992. Darron Arroyo, then 9, was attacked as he was hiking there with his family. The Arroyos sued the state.

State attorneys cited California codes that protect public entities from liability in situations involving "an injury caused by a natural condition of any unimproved public property."

The 2nd District Court of Appeal upheld the state's contention in 1995, concluding that the state had "absolute immunity" and that a wild animal is a "natural condition" within the meaning of state law.

http://articles.latimes.com/1997/sep/15/news/mn-32606

 

[Rayemonde]

The attack on Laura was the first by a mountain lion reported in California since 1909. The child was exploring with her mother when the animal struck, grasping her head in its jaws before being scared off by a passing hiker. The cougar's powerful grip sent shards of bone into the girl's brain. She was left partially paralyzed and blind in one eye, and required reconstructive facial surgery.

Seven months later, Justin was hiking with his family when he stopped to tie his shoes and fell behind. Family members heard screams and rushed back to find a mountain lion on top of the child.

Justin's father ran at the cougar and frightened it away.

http://articles.latimes.com/1997/sep/15/news/mn-32606