ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #13

[ILOKAL]

A mountain lion kill really isn't as messy as you'd think.
Here at this link is a left over kill from a ml and its just some fur and bones. No blood or anything. If this ml had finished his whole kill there would of been nothing. No blood or anything. And its actually very rare how this ml left its kill. And if a ml has cubs she will hunt within her home rang and bring the food back to her cubs. A ml home rang is huge and a ml will usually run up to 10mph

http://custercountynews.com/cms/news/story-605263.html

Research has shown that mountain lions actually consume their kill with methodical precision and leave virtually no blood behind. The cougar drinks the blood for the nutrients it provides. Here's another great sight:

http://www.mountainlion.org/CAL_ch4.asp

 

[giagreen]

Actually, research has shown that mountain lions actually consume their kill with methodical precision and leave virtually no blood behind. The cougar drinks the blood for the nutrients it provides. Here's another great sight:

http://www.mountainlion.org/CAL_ch4.asp

I was just reading that. They will actually "shave" an animal before cutting open its stomach and carefully eating and drinking the blood. These animals are just nuts. They are better skilled then I'd ever of imagined. Sometimes they will kill just cause they felt like it and not even eat what they kill. I think when people think of a ml kill and feeding they think of how a wolf or bear would do it when surprisingly that's not the case at all.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Oh yeah, I read about those Florida Panthers which are, indeed, mountain lions. They live in the Everglades? Good - maybe they can play with the pythons, LOL. We live in Coastal Alabama and some here say sightings have been of the Florida Panthers who have crept this way. Actually, and I know this might sound untrue (but it's not), even if in the mountains, I would not have thought of mountain lions. Yes, I knew there was such an animal but never researched them to be able to even know they were in North America! I have traveled a LOT and am (fairly) well read, so I just don't know how many people, like me, don't know a thing about lions in the US. When we lived in Oklahoma, 1/4 mile from the Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge, my then 10-yr old son told me he saw a mountain lion or cougar not far from our house. He called the Refuge Manager at the time who denied they were in the state, much less the area. Since I began research on them I decided to check out the refuge, and sure enough, they are listed as wildlife there NOW and although they were actually seen by refuge officials back when my son inquired, they were not listed as being there. NOT good! BTW, we just returned from there last Saturday - nope, didn't see any mountain lions! Lots of buffalo, longhorns, elk, and prairie dogs, but NO mountain lions!

OT/ We have always had cougars and bobcats in Oklahoma. I have seen many bobcats, but no cougars. I have heard hunters talk about them. They know the woods here.

I don't know when you lived in OK, but I just ran across a statement you might find interesting:
Further reports continued into September of 1984, where the refuge manager observed a mountain lion on the Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge.
http://www.wildlifedepartment.com/hunting/mlion.htm

 

[ILOKAL]

I was just reading that. They will actually "shave" an animal before cutting open its stomach and carefully eating and drinking the blood. These animals are just nuts. They are better skilled then I'd ever of imagined. Sometimes they will kill just cause they felt like it and not even eat what they kill. I think when people think of a ml kill and feeding they think of how a wolf or bear would do it when surprisingly that's not the case at all.

What else is surprising, is that the research on mountain lions ends up with the same results. So often researchers end up all over the place, but not so with mountain lions. They all say virtually the same thing. As adaptable to the environment as mountain lions are, their behavior remains the same, be it in the desert, the mountains, or the swamp or from a diet of a mouse to a moose. They are believed to be the fastest animal in North America.

 

[giagreen]

What else is surprising, is that the research on mountain lions ends up with the same results. So often researchers end up all over the place, but not so with mountain lions. They all say virtually the same thing. As adaptable to the environment as mountain lions are, their behavior remains the same, be it in the desert, the mountains, or the swamp or from a diet of a mouse to a moose. They are believed to be the fastest animal in North America.

I was reading earlier that ml will usually run 10mph but there has been some that have reached up to speeds of 50mph...that blew my mind. I thought only cheetahs could reach those speeds.

 

[ILOKAL]

OT/ We have always had cougars and bobcats in Oklahoma. I have seen many bobcats, but no cougars. I have heard hunters talk about them. They know the woods here.

I don't know when you lived in OK, but I just ran across a statement you might find interesting:
Further reports continued into September of 1984, where the refuge manager observed a mountain lion on the Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge.
http://www.wildlifedepartment.com/hunting/mlion.htm

That's just it. And yes, that's a report I read and was referring to. Although the refuge manager DID indeed observe a mountain lion on the Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge in 1984, that information was not published and their existence there was actually denied. We lived at the foothills of Mt. Sheridan, 1/4 mile from the cattle guard, from 1981 until 2004. My son reported having seen a mountain lion there in 1987 and was told, by the SAME refuge manager, that mountain lions did not exist there.

 

[ninij9]

Hi, I don't post on this thread to often but I check in and read everyones excellent posts. My one pet peeve with this case is that admittedly its hard to find a tiny human in cammo in the Forest. Yet the Sheriff is confident that he has checked ALL of the animal scat in the area for signs they may have consumed the child!!! Is that even possible? So based on this and other facts he is confident it is not a mountain lion? I don't understand this thought process at all. Me personally, I think he's in the creek. I always thought this from day one. But I don't rule out anything. Fact is SOMETHING happened.
OK, back to reading all of your informative and intuitive posts!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[ILOKAL]

Hi, I don't post on this thread to often but I check in and read everyones excellent posts. My one pet peeve with this case is that admittedly its hard to find a tiny human in cammo in the Forest. Yet the Sheriff is confident that he has checked ALL of the animal scat in the area for signs they may have consumed the child!!! Is that even possible? So based on this and other facts he is confident it is not a mountain lion? I don't understand this thought process at all. Me personally, I think he's in the creek. I always thought this from day one. But I don't rule out anything. Fact is SOMETHING happened.
OK, back to reading all of your informative and intuitive posts!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I certainly don't rule out the creek either. It REALLY bothers me that he is so confident/convinced that basically NOTHING happened by ANY means . . . . Yet he certainly doesn't rule anything out????

I've been meaning to mention this, and this place is as good as any. In that small paragraph within the sheriff's interview with TG, when he talked about the dogs in general and then about the first two dogs, he said "uh" or "um" 14 TIMES! What's that all about, anyway?

 

[ninij9]

I certainly don't rule out the creek either. It REALLY bothers me that he is so confident/convinced that basically NOTHING happened by ANY means . . . . Yet he certainly doesn't rule anything out????

I've been meaning to mention this, and this place is as good as any. In that small paragraph within the sheriff's interview with TG, when he talked about the dogs in general and then about the first two dogs, he said "uh" or "um" 14 TIMES! What's that all about, anyway?

I know. I'm guessing he really isn't comfortable giving interviews. I would love to see them give one more, very large scale search before the snows set in. I can't bear the thought of little DeOrr spending the cold winter out there all alone. That breaks my heart.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Mickshawn]

I know. I'm guessing he really isn't comfortable giving interviews. I would love to see them give one more, very large scale search before the snows set in. I can't bear the thought of little DeOrr spending the cold winter out there all alone. That breaks my heart.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

That's what I think...not comfy with public speaking....I've lived in small towns for so long (one with a winter population of 50 for 16 years), that it doesn't phase me a bit.

 

[Hoosier952]

I'm not ruling out a cougar at all, I just have other opinions higher on the list.

How long would it take a mountain lion to consume 30 lbs? Since we don't know exactly how long he was unattended, I just stated 20 minutes. I know they make pretty clean kills, but I have to assume most of these are in situations where they are able to eat uninterrupted or have a chance to return later. I assume there was quite a commotion when JM and Sr. realized Deorr was missing. What if it was only a couple of minutes? Would 5 minutes be enough for a mountain lion to stalk and attack a child and then move the child out of the search range? Would the cougar drag off prey with adults yelling nearby? Would it drop its prey and run away?

Now if he had been unattended an hour, which I don't think has been ruled out, I could see a lot more opportunity for a clean kill with relatively little evidence left behind.

Also, the very limited research I've done on cougar attacks where the victim has survived has lead me to a bunch of head, neck, shoulder, and defensive wounds, so I don't think it's necessarily a given that there wouldn't be blood from the initial attack. It seems children are often grabbed by the head. Likely due to the limited amount of neck area available to grab. Obviously prey animals like deer, elk, etc would have a lot larger target.

 

[TxJan1971]

I certainly don't rule out the creek either. It REALLY bothers me that he is so confident/convinced that basically NOTHING happened by ANY means . . . . Yet he certainly doesn't rule anything out????

I've been meaning to mention this, and this place is as good as any. In that small paragraph within the sheriff's interview with TG, when he talked about the dogs in general and then about the first two dogs, he said "uh" or "um" 14 TIMES! What's that all about, anyway?

~~~
BBM
Can you please refer me to the paragraph about the dog(s) you are referring to that contains the questionable 14 "uh" or "um's" by the Sheriff (or even what event you are referring to above)? I can't seem to find it anywhere. I looked at the Tricia/Sheriff Bowerman latest Radio Show dialogue but can't find what you might be referring to (or were you referring to a Nate Eaton interview or something else??) TIA

 

[haven71]

I think it's too easy to simply write it off as "a mountain lion took him, but didn't leave any evidence."

There are so many factors that suggest otherwise. And mostly that's what everyone discusses here, for good reason.

 

[ReadySet]

News story from Boise station about the billboards

Clegg says when he vanished from a campsite in Lemhi County, they were in shock, and every day since it's only gotten harder. She also got emotional talking about one woman who she didn't even know suddenly reached out.
"Just people showing me that a lot of people are doing great things to make sure that my grandson is not being missed and not forgotten," said Clegg.
That woman is Rachel Voss. Voss didn't know the Kunz family, but had been following the story of DeOrr's disappearance and wanted to help.
Voss simply asked what the family needed, and they said DeOrr's face reminding everyone he's still missing.

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/2015/10/21/billboards-hope-break-case-missing-2-year-old/74359720/

 

[neesaki]

I was just reading that. They will actually "shave" an animal before cutting open its stomach and carefully eating and drinking the blood. These animals are just nuts. They are better skilled then I'd ever of imagined. Sometimes they will kill just cause they felt like it and not even eat what they kill. I think when people think of a ml kill and feeding they think of how a wolf or bear would do it when surprisingly that's not the case at all.

I agree with everything you say, giagreen. Actually, about 99.9% of the time.

The exception, I don't go along with MLions killing just to kill. They kill strictly for survival, sometimes maybe more than seemingly necessary, but that's in cases where they have been going through a period of going hungry, and they are trying to feed their young... So therefore they know instinctively they need to kill more in order to survive. That's when they don't eat everything they kill, which I believe is very rare. Their only motivation is survival, so in that way, not much different than us humans, lol. I guess my point is, that they don't kill just for pleasure of the kill. Mountain lions are animals who are trying to survive, they're not monsters.

 

[ReadySet]

TxJan1971, Thank you again for your
transcription of the interview.

 

[TxJan1971]

I will say this - when transcribing the Sheriff's statement with regard to wild animals it appeared to me (and MOO) that the Sheriff was certainly acknowledging the very real possibility of a wild animal attack. I think it is his opinion that he would have found "something," and because "nothing" was found it wasn't as high on his list of possibilities (IMOO). I certainly didn't get the impression that he ruled it out by any means. He said it best, he's looking for a break!

18:07
SB: Now this is really rugged country uh real steep on one side and uh downhill and uh just a lot of rocky, rough terrain. You know we’ve got wolves. We’ve got mountain lions. We have bears. We have mountain lions…er…I mean wolves and bears in the campground on the first weekend of our search. We found both, so we’ve got a lot of dangerous animals in the area. The clothing he was wearing, I really think we would have found an article of clothing had an animal taken him and uh so you know I’m perplexed right now. I’m struggling to uh figure this one out, but we’re going to continue searching and we’re going to continue interviewing and looking for any evidence and uh we’re hoping for a break.


When you read the entire response with all the "uh's" in context (or better yet, when you listen and transcribe and hear the speaker, tone, inflections, etc.), it didn't send up any red flags to me whatsoever, but that's JMOO.

 

[TxJan1971]

TxJan1971, Thank you again for your
transcription of the interview.

You're very welcome!

 

[neesaki]

What else is surprising, is that the research on mountain lions ends up with the same results. So often researchers end up all over the place, but not so with mountain lions. They all say virtually the same thing. As adaptable to the environment as mountain lions are, their behavior remains the same, be it in the desert, the mountains, or the swamp or from a diet of a mouse to a moose. They are believed to be the fastest animal in North America.

I've recently learned there are also mountain lions in Arkansas. Since then I've become more aware when I'm out walking/jogging the trails here. I hate it but I've become a little paranoid, LOL.

http://katv.com/archive/game-and-fish-says-mountain-lions-are-in-arkansas-but-arent-breeding

http://www.thv11.com/story/sports/o...n-arkansas-came-from-north-arkansas/71250014/

 

[neesaki]

I'm not ruling out a cougar at all, I just have other opinions higher on the list.

How long would it take a mountain lion to consume 30 lbs? Since we don't know exactly how long he was unattended, I just stated 20 minutes. I know they make pretty clean kills, but I have to assume most of these are in situations where they are able to eat uninterrupted or have a chance to return later. I assume there was quite a commotion when JM and Sr. realized Deorr was missing. What if it was only a couple of minutes? Would 5 minutes be enough for a mountain lion to stalk and attack a child and then move the child out of the search range? Would the cougar drag off prey with adults yelling nearby? Would it drop its prey and run away?

Now if he had been unattended an hour, which I don't think has been ruled out, I could see a lot more opportunity for a clean kill with relatively little evidence left behind.

Also, the very limited research I've done on cougar attacks where the victim has survived has lead me to a bunch of head, neck, shoulder, and defensive wounds, so I don't think it's necessarily a given that there wouldn't be blood from the initial attack. It seems children are often grabbed by the head. Likely due to the limited amount of neck area available to grab. Obviously prey animals like deer, elk, etc would have a lot larger target.

It is a possibility that the time that little Deorr was left unsupervised was longer than reported. I'm not saying it was intentional, but I myself have a problem with keeping up with time, especially with losing track of time. So, anything is possible. JMO