ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #13

[Trident]

I've recently learned there are also mountain lions in Arkansas. Since then I've become more aware when I'm out walking/jogging the trails here. I hate it but I've become a little paranoid, LOL.

http://katv.com/archive/game-and-fish-says-mountain-lions-are-in-arkansas-but-arent-breeding

http://www.thv11.com/story/sports/o...n-arkansas-came-from-north-arkansas/71250014/

It is good to become more aware when jogging/walking/camping, especially when it comes to predators, both animal and human. Be aware of movement, odd smells, and look up from time to time - Native Americans said they could "smell" whites because of what they ate. We have the same senses, but they are dulled/unused for years. But, most of all, go with your gut feeling - if you think danger is around, it probably is.

:cow:

 

[ReadySet]

:cat: "It wasn't me!"

 

[Cardinal47]

I believe the sheriff said "99% sure Deorr was at the campsite"; not in regard to if he wasn't up there.

Bowerman is “99 percent sure” DeOrr was at the campground with his parents, DeOrr Kunz Sr. and Jessica Mitchell, great-grandfather, Robert Walton, and Isaac Reinwand, a friend of the grandfather, when the 2-year-old was last seen.

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/08/lemhi-sheriff-opens-up-about-deorr-kunz-case/

I think I must have been misunderstood and apologize for not being clearer.

What I meant about the 99% he wasn't up there. I meant after the Sheriff finished searching for him he was sure he wasn't still up there or the Sheriff would have found him or some clue of him.

I did not mean he had never been there. I donno about that.

 

[desert-blue]

graphic discussion today.... this poor cougar has been accused of some gruesome deeds.... is he (or she) officially a suspect? (kidding... just my attempt at humor)

 

[giagreen]

I agree with everything you say, giagreen. Actually, about 99.9% of the time.

The exception, I don't go along with MLions killing just to kill. They kill strictly for survival, sometimes maybe more than seemingly necessary, but that's in cases where they have been going through a period of going hungry, and they are trying to feed their young... So therefore they know instinctively they need to kill more in order to survive. That's when they don't eat everything they kill, which I believe is very rare. Their only motivation is survival, so in that way, not much different than us humans, lol. I guess my point is, that they don't kill just for pleasure of the kill. Mountain lions are animals who are trying to survive, they're not monsters.

Your probably right. I actually only read that they kill for the sake of killing on one website and that was it. And lord knows not everything we read on the internet is true.

I guess I just lean more towards ml attack because if a ml did take this little guy this is exactly what we would have a huge mystery and no definite answers.

 

[giagreen]

I've recently learned there are also mountain lions in Arkansas. Since then I've become more aware when I'm out walking/jogging the trails here. I hate it but I've become a little paranoid, LOL.

http://katv.com/archive/game-and-fish-says-mountain-lions-are-in-arkansas-but-arent-breeding

http://www.thv11.com/story/sports/o...n-arkansas-came-from-north-arkansas/71250014/

You know here in Wisconsin we had a ml a few years back way up north that was caught and confirmed to be a mountain lion. I remember at the time so many people said no way and that it was impossible.

Then just as recently as a month or so ago there has been sightings by severel diffrent people of one down by the SE area of Wisconsin but it hasn't been confirmed.

Anyways, point is I get nervous when I'm out hiking here and we don't even technically have ml here. Between ml and Israel Keyes I lead a very paranoid life. Lol

 

[sirensong]

I didn't keep any links, but I read that baby DeOrr was wearing cowboy boots that were too big for him. If that's true, I think at least one would have fallen off if a ml ran off with him. JMO

 

[giagreen]

Even if one did fall off there is no telling when or where that would have occurred. Id imagine that one small tiny camouflage boot would be hard to find in that large area.
Not only that but I'm not convince the boots were so big on him that they would fall off right away. I know it was reported they were big on him but I never heard from the parents exactly how big or if they did fall off frequently.
I know that my son has shoes and boots that are to big on him yet his feet are wide so his over sized boots do stay on him. I just can't put much faith into over sized boots with out hearing the parents perspective on it.

 

[ILOKAL]

~~~
BBM
Can you please refer me to the paragraph about the dog(s) you are referring to that contains the questionable 14 "uh" or "um's" by the Sheriff (or even what event you are referring to above)? I can't seem to find it anywhere. I looked at the Tricia/Sheriff Bowerman latest Radio Show dialogue but can't find what you might be referring to (or were you referring to a Nate Eaton interview or something else??) TIA

Sorry. My mistake. It's not the paragraph where he speaks of the dogs. Actually, it's the paragraph at 9:36 when SB speaks about the polygraphs. I referred to the wrong paragraph.

 

[ILOKAL]

graphic discussion today.... this poor cougar has been accused of some gruesome deeds.... is he (or she) officially a suspect? (kidding... just my attempt at humor)

All I know is he's/she's been mentioned in MSM so we can sleuth them!

 

[ILOKAL]

I agree with everything you say, giagreen. Actually, about 99.9% of the time.

The exception, I don't go along with MLions killing just to kill. They kill strictly for survival, sometimes maybe more than seemingly necessary, but that's in cases where they have been going through a period of going hungry, and they are trying to feed their young... So therefore they know instinctively they need to kill more in order to survive. That's when they don't eat everything they kill, which I believe is very rare. Their only motivation is survival, so in that way, not much different than us humans, lol. I guess my point is, that they don't kill just for pleasure of the kill. Mountain lions are animals who are trying to survive, they're not monsters.

Neesaki, I know that you and giagreen, as well as myself and others, have done a lot of reading (lately) about mountain lions so we can learn more about them and to better understand them. Although I don't want to see mountain lions maligned, I DO want to know as much accurate information about them as is possible.

I too have read that mountain lions sometimes kill even when they're not hungry and kill more than they could ever consume. I will try to find places where I read that. Here's a link with that information from an independent researcher in South Dakota:

http://www.aws.vcn.com/mountain_lion_fact_sheet.html

I will see if I can find more and I will edit to add them to this post.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3...q=cougars kill more than they can eat&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=t...q=cougars kill more than they can eat&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=i...q=cougars kill more than they can eat&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=H...q=cougars kill more than they can eat&f=false

https://americanexpedition.us/mountain-lion-facts

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2015/10/livestock-killing_cougar_shot.html

These sources and many more all say mountain lions DO sometimes kill more than they can possibly consume and kill even when not hungry. The known killing lion in at least one case was actually an adult male age 3-4 rather than a female with kittens to feed. I didn't read all the details in all the sources so I don't know if the sex was determined in other cases.

 

[giagreen]

I think its worth taking a look at the Jaryd Atadero story. IMO we can all learn a lot from his story. A three year old boy who disappeared while hiking with a group of people in 1999. He was running ahead on and off ahead of the group so he could jump out and say "boo". He was missing for about 20 min before people noticed. For THREE whole years there was no clues as to what happen to him.
There were searches. There were dogs. They used helicopters. And nothing was found for three years till two hikers in 2003 stumbled acrossed some of Jaryds clothes a piece of his skull and a tooth just about 500 feet from where he was last seen. Jaryd was killed by a mountain lion. Yet some how dogs, searchers, and helicopters missed him repeatedly in their search. Two groups of adults never heard a thing. There were no screams or sounds of him being carried off. No blood trail. Nothing.
Another interesting tidbit about all this is Jaryd's shoes where not tied and many believed for years if he had been taken by a ml the shoes would of fell off and been found but they were not. When they were found 3.5 years later they were clean and still in good shape.


http://www.nytimes.com/1999/10/06/us/dogs-search-for-boy-3-in-mountains-of-colorado.html

http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/07/missing.boy.01/index.html
http://www.angelfire.com/co/KlueLass/lions/attacks2.htm

 

[MBK]

graphic discussion today.... this poor cougar has been accused of some gruesome deeds.... is he (or she) officially a suspect? (kidding... just my attempt at humor)

Solidarity with the cougars and mountain lions. Total red herring. Occam's razor. Makes no sense. Look at the history here, folks.

 

[ILOKAL]

I think its worth taking a look at the Jaryd Atadero story. IMO we can all learn a lot from his story. A three year old boy who disappeared while hiking with a group of people in 1999. He was running ahead on and off ahead of the group so he could jump out and say "boo". He was missing for about 20 min before people noticed. For THREE whole years there was no clues as to what happen to him.
There were searches. There were dogs. They used helicopters. And nothing was found for three years till two hikers in 2003 stumbled acrossed some of Jaryds clothes a piece of his skull and a tooth just about 150 feet from where he was last seen. Jaryd was killed by a mountain lion. Yet some how dogs, searchers, and helicopters missed him repeatedly in their search. Two groups of adults never heard a thing. There were no screams or sounds of him being carried off. No blood trail. Nothing.



http://www.nytimes.com/1999/10/06/us/dogs-search-for-boy-3-in-mountains-of-colorado.html

http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/07/missing.boy.01/index.html
http://www.angelfire.com/co/KlueLass/lions/attacks2.htm

Yes, giagreen, that's a very sad story. The families were celebrating Father's Day. I thought Jaryd was seven or almost seven?

 

[ILOKAL]

Solidarity with the cougars and mountain lions. Total red herring. Occam's razor. Makes no sense. Look at the history here, folks.

What are you talking about, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[giagreen]

Yes, giagreen, that's a very sad story. The families were celebrating Father's Day. I thought Jaryd was seven or almost seven?

No, he was three years old and 9 months. I do believe there is another boy this happen to in the same area who survived his attack and he was older about 7-8. Don't quote me on that tho it might have been a different area.

 

[giagreen]

Solidarity with the cougars and mountain lions. Total red herring. Occam's razor. Makes no sense. Look at the history here, folks.

Let's take a look at some history here and stop ignoring all other possibilitys just to make the parents did it scenario fit. What makes no sense is going around and around trying to pick apart a time line and bending everything to try and make what doesn't fit finally fit.





http://www.nytimes.com/1999/10/06/us/dogs-search-for-boy-3-in-mountains-of-colorado.html

http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/07/missing.boy.01/index.html
http://www.angelfire.com/co/KlueLass/lions/attacks2.htm

 

[ILOKAL]

No, he was three years old and 9 months. I do believe there is another boy this happen to in the same area who survived his attack and he was older about 7-8. Don't quote me on that tho it might have been a different area.

I guess what confused me was when you said he wanted to scare the family and say "Boo"! In a similar situation of kids playing was Dennis Martin, almost seven, who went missing while camping over Father's Day weekend at Cades Cove Campground in the Great Smoky Mountains of Tennessee back in the 70's. Although the case remains "unsolved", a mountain lion has been suspected.

Thanks for pointing that out. I HAD read the account of Jaryd. A really sad story, as they ALL are!

 

[giagreen]

I guess what confused me was when you said he wanted to scare the family and say "Boo"! In a similar situation of kids playing was Dennis Martin, almost seven, who went missing while camping over Father's Day weekend at Cades Cove Campground in the Great Smoky Mountains of Tennessee back in the 70's. Although the case remains "unsolved", a mountain lion has been suspected.

Thanks for pointing that out. I HAD read the account of Jaryd. A really sad story, as they ALL are!

That makes sense cause wasn't Dennis Martin playing hide and seek?
They are all such sad storys. At least with Jaryd the family finally had answers. It would have to be a living hell to live each day for the rest of your life never knowing what happen to your child. I don't think I could do it unless if I had another child I had to keep it together for.

 

[pepelepolecat]

I agree with everything you say, giagreen. Actually, about 99.9% of the time.

The exception, I don't go along with MLions killing just to kill. They kill strictly for survival, sometimes maybe more than seemingly necessary, but that's in cases where they have been going through a period of going hungry, and they are trying to feed their young... So therefore they know instinctively they need to kill more in order to survive. That's when they don't eat everything they kill, which I believe is very rare. Their only motivation is survival, so in that way, not much different than us humans, lol. I guess my point is, that they don't kill just for pleasure of the kill. Mountain lions are animals who are trying to survive, they're not monsters.

bbm -- exactly.

Hunting requires a great deal of energy. That's energy a big cat or little cat isn't going to expend unless the food is actually needed. Housecats -- domestic pet cats that are let outside rather than strays or ferals -- kill "for fun," if you will, but they also have a steady, reliably food supply. iow, they have food and therefore energy to waste. Wild animals of any kind are not going to waste energy just for a bit of fun hunting/killing.

That's not to say a mountain lion wasn't to blame here. I personally don't subscribe to that theory, though. Just that IF a ML was to blame, it did it to eat -- not just for funsies. Still a tragedy, but there's no point in making the animal out to be some kind of super-evil monster. It's not. It's just an animal trying to survive.