ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #13

[giagreen]

From two different interviews:

SB: That’s correct! The family came back to the campground. Uh the friend said he was catching some fish and, and the parents said, “Well can you show us the fish?” They start down to the creek which is about 50 feet below the campground, and it’s not very well observed from the campground, in fact you actually can’t see the creek. You can hear it.

05:19
TG: Mmm hmm.

05:19
SB: And they turned and looked at their son and asked him if he wanted to stay with Grandpa or go with them, and he said, “Grandpa,” and started walking towards uh Grandpa. So, mom and dad go down over the creek with…with the friend. They start doing some fishing. Grandpa says he’s watching the child


“Where was Mr. Redwand during all of this?”

Sheriff Bowerman:
Using his hands to demonstrate…

“He was in the same general proximity. The creek…it’s just over the bank…um…He’s downstream. They’re upstream, uh…they’re all within probably (head nodding left to right) 100 to 150 feet of each other. “

I honestly think he was talking about when they noticed DeOrr was missing.
In both cases IR was down stream. Parents went with him and headed back to camp while IR stayed and fished.

In his one interview he never talked about how everything started out just where everyone was when it was noticed DeOrr was missing. Imo

 

[neesaki]

Quote BBM

This is a short video of the campsite, creek & bank. Nate showed the direction the parents went, however it is different from what the sheriff said about going over the bank.

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/a-closer-look-the-campground-where-deorr-kunz-disappeared/

Yes, that has always bothered me, the direction Nate points in is straight through the clearing, not toward the creek, and states "they went up this way", nothing about going to the creek. Maybe Sheriff B. meant they went up that way, then went down to the creek from there. And if you'll recall, according to Deorr Sr., grandpa said he thought little Deorr "went up to you". Well, the creek is down from the campsite, not "up".
Which makes me wonder if little Deorr first saw his parents walk away through that clearing, then maybe when he decided to go after them he ran straight that direction, but they had already turned and went down to the creek. Not knowing this or seeing where they'd gone, he just kept going and going. Who knows, but it's something that's occurred to me for a while now. Why the difference in reporting of exactly where they actually were, who knows, could be an ever changing story by either the POI's or LE, or is it just bad reporting. JMO

 

[Groundwork]

Obviously I can't completely rule out anything, but several things about mountain lion behavior make it a little more difficult for me to put it at the too of my list.

Let me start by saying that I live in Colorado and my family hikes and camps a lot. When we moved here, we immediately began looking into how to handle all kinds of wildlife encounters...from rattlesnakes to mountain lions...and my husband and I review this often with the kids. My understanding is that mountain lions primarily hunt from dusk to dawn and that attacks on people generally correlate to low prey animal populations.

I looked into that a bit for Idaho; due to three mild winters in a row, the elk and deer numbers are very, very high compared to normal. Fawn survival rates for winter 2014-2015 were much higher than average (I think I read more than 90%). There seems to be plenty of normal mountain lion prey available.

Again, I will not say this could not have possibly happened. It seems that no matter what really did happen, the stars had to align just right and in umerable odds had to be defied.

 

[margol29]

There's some good footage of the Creek and reservoir here:

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/loca...andfather-believes-boy-was-abducted/30321903/

Thank you Raymonde for this video. It does show that the creek was rushing very fast but it also has a lot of obstacles. If DeOrr had fallen in something of his, clothes or boots would have gotten caught in one of them.

I just don't see why SB does not want another search. This time of year the leaves are falling and vegetation is withering. They might find something that was not seen before.

 

[ILOKAL]

Obviously I can't completely rule out anything, but several things about mountain lion behavior make it a little more difficult for me to put it at the too of my list.

Let me start by saying that I live in Colorado and my family hikes and camps a lot. When we moved here, we immediately began looking into how to handle all kinds of wildlife encounters...from rattlesnakes to mountain lions...and my husband and I review this often with the kids. My understanding is that mountain lions primarily hunt from dusk to dawn and that attacks on people generally correlate to low prey animal populations.

I looked into that a bit for Idaho; due to three mild winters in a row, the elk and deer numbers are very, very high compared to normal. Fawn survival rates for winter 2014-2015 were much higher than average (I think I read more than 90%). There seems to be plenty of normal mountain lion prey available.

Again, I will not say this could not have possibly happened. It seems that no matter what really did happen, the stars had to align just right and in umerable odds had to be defied.

Actually, the more of their preferred prey that is available, e.g. mule deer and elk, the more likely to have lions in that area. They are opportunistic killers and will kill easy prey no matter if they're hungry or not. As an opportunistic killer, if a mountain lion happens to see possible, easy prey, make no mistake, in most instances, he WILL grab it.

Also, cougars don't just hunt from dusk 'til dawn. They also hunt during the day.

 

[ILOKAL]

On my phone so I can't search but didn't see this on the last couple pages. Sorry if it's a repeat.

Utah Toddler Has Close Call With Mountain Lion

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=37062972&ni...at-deer-hunt-camp&fm=home_page&s_cid=topstory

Thank you for bringing that case to our attention. This just happened yesterday? Wow! That is one lucky family!

 

[desert-blue]

From two different interviews:

SB: That’s correct! The family came back to the campground. Uh the friend said he was catching some fish and, and the parents said, “Well can you show us the fish?” They start down to the creek which is about 50 feet below the campground, and it’s not very well observed from the campground, in fact you actually can’t see the creek. You can hear it.

05:19
TG: Mmm hmm.

05:19
SB: And they turned and looked at their son and asked him if he wanted to stay with Grandpa or go with them, and he said, “Grandpa,” and started walking towards uh Grandpa. So, mom and dad go down over the creek with…with the friend. They start doing some fishing. Grandpa says he’s watching the child


“Where was Mr. Redwand during all of this?”

Sheriff Bowerman:
Using his hands to demonstrate…

“He was in the same general proximity. The creek…it’s just over the bank…um…He’s downstream. They’re upstream, uh…they’re all within probably (head nodding left to right) 100 to 150 feet of each other. “

Has it been mentioned if they were carrying all their fishing gear with them when they went with Isaac down to the creek? Just trying to get a visualization in my head of the events... originally when they said exploring, I did not envision them with fishing poles, etc., but if they actually went fishing they must have all that with them, right?

 

[desert-blue]

SB said that the couple that was camping at the upper campsite came and helped search on the first and possibly the second day (so, Friday and possibly Saturday, I assume?). In the interview with the parents on Monday, July 13th, DK states that they did not know if anyone else was camping around them. Wouldn't he have known if that couple came and helped search? Did the couple never mention that they were camped at the upper reservoir? I'm a bit confused about this.

 

[Rayemonde]

SB said that the couple that was camping at the upper campsite came and helped search on the first and possibly the second day (so, Friday and possibly Saturday, I assume?). In the interview with the parents on Monday, July 13th, DK states that they did not know if anyone else was camping around them. Wouldn't he have known if that couple came and helped search? Did the couple never mention that they were camped at the upper reservoir? I'm a bit confused about this.

I think a lot of people came to help search, so the parents probably didn't talk to everyone. Plus they had to stay outside of the search area.

 

[ILOKAL]

SB said that the couple that was camping at the upper campsite came and helped search on the first and possibly the second day (so, Friday and possibly Saturday, I assume?). In the interview with the parents on Monday, July 13th, DK states that they did not know if anyone else was camping around them. Wouldn't he have known if that couple came and helped search? Did the couple never mention that they were camped at the upper reservoir? I'm a bit confused about this.

If the parents never saw anyone there while they were camping, how would they recognize these people from any others who came to help search? Also, the parents weren't in the area being searched IIRC.

EDA: However, I WOULD expect the sheriff to know which days they were there!

 

[ILOKAL]

I think a lot of people came to help search, so the parents probably didn't talk to everyone. Plus they had to stay outside of the search area.

LOL, we said almost the same thing!

 

[ILOKAL]

Has it been mentioned if they were carrying all their fishing gear with them when they went with Isaac down to the creek? Just trying to get a visualization in my head of the events... originally when they said exploring, I did not envision them with fishing poles, etc., but if they actually went fishing they must have all that with them, right?

Well, if they were actually planning to fish at that time they probably would have had gear with them. If they were only scouting for good fishing areas, probably not. Either way, I don't think it plays into or has an impact on DeOrr's disappearance.

 

[SuperTmo]

SB said that the couple that was camping at the upper campsite came and helped search on the first and possibly the second day (so, Friday and possibly Saturday, I assume?). In the interview with the parents on Monday, July 13th, DK states that they did not know if anyone else was camping around them. Wouldn't he have known if that couple came and helped search? Did the couple never mention that they were camped at the upper reservoir? I'm a bit confused about this.

I still think he should have known because he rushed half a mile up the road to make his 911 call. Better service higher up I guess. But surely he would have seen them.

 

[SuperTmo]

Well, if they were actually planning to fish at that time they probably would have had gear with them. If they were only scouting for good fishing areas, probably not. Either way, I don't think it plays into or has an impact on DeOrr's disappearance.

Not on his disappearance, but if there was fishing gear dumped on the ground it would make me think that they did go camping, and that they did come back to camp, realize the baby was gone and go frantically searching.

 

[desert-blue]

If the parents never saw anyone there while they wee camping, how would they recognize these people from any others who came to help search? Also, the parents weren't in the area being searched IIRC.

EDA: However, I WOULD expect the sheriff to know which days they were there!

I agree they probably didn't see them while they were camping (prior to Deorr missing), but it seems like at some point on Friday or Saturday, that the parents would have learned that there were other campers at the upper campsite. It just seems a little strange to me... although maybe the sheriff himself didn't know about the other campers until much later as well? He did say they had to track them down - not sure when that occurred.

 

[desert-blue]

Well, if they were actually planning to fish at that time they probably would have had gear with them. If they were only scouting for good fishing areas, probably not. Either way, I don't think it plays into or has an impact on DeOrr's disappearance.

SB: And they turned and looked at their son and asked him if he wanted to stay with Grandpa or go with them, and he said, “Grandpa,” and started walking towards uh Grandpa. So, mom and dad go down over the creek with…with the friend. They start doing some fishing. Grandpa says he’s watching the child.

It sounds like they (so at least two of the three) were actually fishing. I'm not sure it would have anything to do with Deorr's disappearance either. It just helps to visualize things and get a sense of who was where and for how long, etc.

 

[ILOKAL]

Not on his disappearance, but if there was fishing gear dumped on the ground it would make me think that they did go camping, and that they did come back to camp, realize the baby was gone and go frantically searching.

Fishing gear? That would make you feel nothing nefarious happened? Is that what you're saying?

 

[ILOKAL]

SB: And they turned and looked at their son and asked him if he wanted to stay with Grandpa or go with them, and he said, “Grandpa,” and started walking towards uh Grandpa. So, mom and dad go down over the creek with…with the friend. They start doing some fishing. Grandpa says he’s watching the child.

It sounds like they (so at least two of the three) were actually fishing. I'm not sure it would have anything to do with Deorr's disappearance either. It just helps to visualize things and get a sense of who was where and for how long, etc.

Then I guess that should answer your question about the fishing gear, no? If they started doing some fishing . . . . They had gear, IMO.

 

[TeaTime]

The 90% fawn survival rate tells me that there weren't many, if any, mountain lions in the area. Not only did the fawns survive, but so did their mothers. Tells me they weren't being eaten.

 

[ILOKAL]

I still think he should have known because he rushed half a mile up the road to make his 911 call. Better service higher up I guess. But surely he would have seen them.

How do you figure that? We don't have any idea about the configuration of those camp grounds and where that half-mile is <modsnip>