ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #2

[Jackeee]

I only started following this case a couple of days ago so I had a lot of catching up to do. Please bear with me as I'm still wondering about something that I can't find has been covered.

1/ Did the entire family arrive at the campground in the same vehicle?
or
2/ Did they arrive in separate vehicles at different times?

3/ If the latter, and Deorr and his parents got there first, did the grandfather even see the boy before the parents left to explore? Maybe and I do mean just maybe, the parents told the grandfather Deorr was having a nap and didn't look in on him so as not to disturb him.

The parents said he was with the grandfather and the grandfather thought he was with the parents. Has the grandfather had anything to say?

Im only trying to get a picture in my mind as to what took place before the 911 call.

 

[Donjeta]

Respectfully....I think sometimes people havent read back far enough to see how discussions evolve.

The discussion evolved from the fact that cremains were being dumped in the reservoir during the search. And we began talking about how some perp may have tried to mess up the search dogs by sprinkling in somebodys ashes upstream just below the reservoir so it would carry down the stream.

Then it was brought up that the perp could have even been sprinkling in the boys ashes mixed in with someone elses ashes.

If the perp took the boy away from the area OR he was never there to begin with then he could have easily been burned somewhere else and his ashes returned to mess up the search dogs.

IMO
It would be unique idea for a perp to do that.
If somehow DNA was ever collected then with familiarar DNA techniques it could have really caused confusion to LE.

If perps are hoping to confuse LE with DNA they wouldn't dump cremains in a reservoir imo but leave them somewhere LE can get it IMO.

Which is what makes me think whoever dumped the cremains did it very late in the evening when searchers were not active. Like they snuck in there around 2 in the morning to do it.

Which further makes me think it was done for nefarious reasons and not a simple mistake by someone or a crematoriam business.

The coincidence of the timing is too great for me.

All JMO of course.

Oh, also....way back I had brought up that I think according to the article about it, it appeared to me it was a "Tip" by someone that allerted LE to this dumping of cremains. Which further makes me lean towards a nefarious activity. Because it appeared someone provided a TIP about it. At least that is the way I took it when reading the article.

Not necessarily I think. If it was steelman's bluehaired granny who went there she might not read the news much and not realize that her husband's ashes had anything to do with the search for the missing toddler, but one of her children might put two and two together and get worried and call the sheriff, "hey, you know, you said you found cadaver scent in the reservoir but that's where dad's ashes went, do you think the dogs could have alerted to our father...?"

 

[ClaireNC]

It's remote, but it's not so remote no one ever goes there.

It's not a park, as several people have said. It's National Forest Service land, which means public land. They couldn't entirely close it off because people might need to get up there for any of several legitimate reasons. I'm speaking of forest service land generally, not this particular spot.

As has been pointed out, there's a lot of mining in the area. People might need to get to their claims. It's possible that portions of it are leased for timber harvest or summer grazing of sheep and cattle. There could be cabins for the crews. There could even be summer cabins.

People go there for fishing and hunting. People go there for hiking and probably rock climbing. When we were there years ago, we were fishing and looking for agates and/or crystals.

And if you look closely at the map, you can see that while there's only one road that goes directly to the campground, there are other roads in the immediate area.

And while it might be a lightly used campground, they wouldn't have a campground there at all if there wasn't some use.

Thanks for that Carbuff. From the maps I noticed that the road going into the campground splits into at least three roads near the reservoir. They might have had the main part of the road directly into the campground blocked, but people would still be free to use the other two roads. It also looks like there are some ATV trails around there.

I think the Steelman's description of the little old lady scattering her husband's ashes is very plausible. I think it is odd that only the one source HLN reported on that little piece of "news". I'm not very impressed with HLN, so who knows if it is accurate. On the other hand, local news sources might have been asked to not publish it by LE for whatever reason. There is so much we don't know about this case, that LE is obviously withholding a LOT of information and the local media might be respecting their wishes.

Also about the reservoir, does anybody know if it is man-made and used to supply water to something, either people, livestock or crops? Or is it a natural lake that they happen to call a reservoir?

 

[teeandcee]

I generally don't question LE's decisions as I'm obviously not an insider, but I do wonder how this would turn out if they'd been as forthcoming as LE in the Hannah Graham case. I followed that and very quickly LE was out there in the public's face and very quickly the video of JM turned up, then his ID, the search warrants, his being ID'd after he fled the state, etc. I dunno, that just seemed like such a good technique, what they did with Hannah Graham.

 

[Satchie]

With regards to search and rescue, typically intensive searches are scaled back after 10 days or so. The searchers become exhausted and just can't keep going over the same ground a third or fourth time. Also, after that time the likelihood of survival is almost nil. With all our excellent techniques and technologies, nature is sometimes still more powerful than we are and I hope the parents can find peace in the idea that their little boy fell asleep somewhere out there and nature took him back.

As someone said in an earlier thread, there is a big difference between someone going missing in an urban environment and someone going missing in the wilderness. In the wilderness, the overwhelming likelihood is natural causes. I would want to see clues or evidence before speculating on an abduction.

 

[ClaireNC]

I only started following this case a couple of days ago so I had a lot of catching up to do. Please bear with me as I'm still wondering about something that I can't find has been covered.

1/ Did the entire family arrive at the campground in the same vehicle?
or
2/ Did they arrive in separate vehicles at different times?

3/ If the latter, and Deorr and his parents got there first, did the grandfather even see the boy before the parents left to explore? Maybe and I do mean just maybe, the parents told the grandfather Deorr was having a nap and didn't look in on him so as not to disturb him.

The parents said he was with the grandfather and the grandfather thought he was with the parents. Has the grandfather had anything to say?

Im only trying to get a picture in my mind as to what took place before the 911 call.

Hi Jackeee, Welcome! Unfortunately, we don't know the answers to those questions. LE has been pretty tight on the details of what happened that day and the family appears to have stopped talking to the press after the first few days.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

That's what I thought. So there wouldn't be much point to tossing cremains to try to cover remains.


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Plus, it is not easy to cremate a body. Crematoriums burn bodies at extremely high temperatures, in a specially designed furnace, for hours and hours, and even with that the bones are not ash. They are ground up into a powder afterward. Not a process that can be easily replicated with a campfire.

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[ninij9]

Deleted. Tapatalk confounds me [emoji20]

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[Donjeta]

I generally don't question LE's decisions as I'm obviously not an insider, but I do wonder how this would turn out if they'd been as forthcoming as LE in the Hannah Graham case. I followed that and very quickly LE was out there in the public's face and very quickly the video of JM turned up, then his ID, the search warrants, his being ID'd after he fled the state, etc. I dunno, that just seemed like such a good technique, what they did with Hannah Graham.

The facts of this case seem different somehow... I'm thinking perhaps LE in this county would be more forthcoming if they had pictures of a suspicious stranger they need identified or an abduction suspect on the run who they need captured, but they said they have no evidence of abduction. Let's say the man at the store really turned out to be the dad, whose videos and ID would they post? There probably wasn't any surveillance video in the forest to publish.

 

[Cardinal47]

I generally don't question LE's decisions as I'm obviously not an insider, but I do wonder how this would turn out if they'd been as forthcoming as LE in the Hannah Graham case. I followed that and very quickly LE was out there in the public's face and very quickly the video of JM turned up, then his ID, the search warrants, his being ID'd after he fled the state, etc. I dunno, that just seemed like such a good technique, what they did with Hannah Graham.

Oh how I agree.

That case was like a 'how to handle a missing person handbook'. I wish that sheriff would be everyplace somebody goes missing.

 

[Hatfield]

I only started following this case a couple of days ago so I had a lot of catching up to do. Please bear with me as I'm still wondering about something that I can't find has been covered.

1/ Did the entire family arrive at the campground in the same vehicle?
or
2/ Did they arrive in separate vehicles at different times?

3/ If the latter, and Deorr and his parents got there first, did the grandfather even see the boy before the parents left to explore? Maybe and I do mean just maybe, the parents told the grandfather Deorr was having a nap and didn't look in on him so as not to disturb him.

The parents said he was with the grandfather and the grandfather thought he was with the parents. Has the grandfather had anything to say?

Im only trying to get a picture in my mind as to what took place before the 911 call.

We dont know if 2 vehicles were used. However there is 1 photo of where we think we see the black truck. And IMO it has the smaller 1/2 extended cab which has just the tiny "dummy seats" in back which are not really fit to hold 2 adults comfortably for a long drive.

So if that truck picture is theirs, then IMO I do think there had to be 2 vehicles.

So if we assume 2 vehicles, then your example is a good hypothetical example of how the boy may have never even been seen by 2 of the adults at the campground.

Flip it around and it could have been the parents that never saw the boy.

 

[Cardinal47]

I haven't heard but wondering what's going on today. Are the parents still up at the campsite or have they returned home?

Is anybody still searching for Deorr?

 

[Inthedetails]

I've never ever heard of the term "cremains" before this thread. We call them "ashes" here in the uk

I never heard the term until my mom died and at her wishes, she was cremated. I kept referring to the remains as "ashes" and my persnickety and bossy oldest sibling kept correcting me, "It's CREMAINS. The correct term is CREMAINS. CRE-MAINS. They don't use the word ashes but CREMAINS."

She even corrected me when I hadn't even said anything. (Grief didn't bring out the best in our conversations for awhile...things improved, but I still don't dare use the word "ashes" around her.)

For what it's worth, I think the word ashes is just fine.

 

[concernedmother]

I never heard the term until my mom recently died and at her wishes, she was cremated. I kept referring to the remains as "ashes" and my persnickety and bossy oldest sibling kept correcting me, "It's CREMAINS. The correct term is CREMAINS. CRE-MAINS. They don't use the word ashes but CREMAINS."

She even corrected me when I hadn't even said anything. (Grief didn't bring out the best in our conversations for awhile...things improved, but I still don't dare use the word "ashes" around her.)

For what it's worth, I think the word ashes is just fine.

I have some and always call them ashes. Actually, Ive not heard anyone ever say cremains before.

 

[Hatfield]

I haven't heard but wondering what's going on today. Are the parents still up at the campsite or have they returned home?

Is anybody still searching for Deorr?

Unfortunately after yesterdays "decided to redirect the investigation" update from the Sheriff, I dont think LE is searching up there much anymore. They may still have a presence and maybe are doing some minor searching but it didnt sound like it to me. Link below.

Not sure about anyone else up there.


https://www.facebook.com/LemhiCountySheriffsOffice

 

[Mickshawn]

~~I've ONLY seen info on Mom's 911 call. Didn't Dad make his own 911 call??

Best quick overview of 911 call I could bring up on the fly:
http://www.localnews8.com/news/911-call-reporting-missing-toddler-released/34192558
What's the address of your emergency?"
"Um, I'm actually camping in leadore, just outside of Leadore."
"Uh huh."
"Um, my 2-year-old son, Um, we can't find him."

>snip<

"How long has he been missing?"
"About an hour."
"an hour?"
"Yeah."
>snip<

"Jessica?"
"Yeah."
"OK, what is he wearing?"
"Cowboy boots, a blue um pair of pajama pants, and a camo jacket."
>snip<

"How tall is he? Hello?"
"I, I'm not exactly sure, he's about three..."
"Are you there?"
"Yeah."
"OK."
"Is your husband calling too?"
"All down where we were camping at and we can't find him at all."
"OK, hang on."

Then dispatch gives the mother instructions.

"OK, we need you to stay within cell service"
"OK."
"We've got people on the way."
"Thank you."
MORE @LINK

 

[skibaboo]

I've never ever heard of the term "cremains" before this thread. We call them "ashes" here in the uk

I was just about to say the same thing! We learned a new word eh?

 

[CatsInTheCradle]

Somebody with some knowledge of the subject posted in the first thread that cadaver dogs need to be specially trained to detect cremains. Not all cadaver dogs have this training. (I wish I could remember who posted that, it was a mod.)

I thought it was TLCYA but could certainly be wrong

 

[4senthia]

I know the father says he called 911 also. They asked the mom if he had called while she was on the phone w/dispatch and she said "yes".
Here is a link w/one version of the timeline along w/the video of the interview the parents gave explaining the situation.
Notice that they were quoted as saying they searched for about 20 minutes. I honestly thought they said an hour. I am certainly cutting them all the slack possible because they are shaken to the core.
jmoho
The link:
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/heartbroken-parents-of-missing-2-year-old-well-find-you-son/

 

[Mickshawn]

A drone to be used: http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/loca...riffs-office-calling-in-air-support/30466883/