ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #2

[angelbaker]

Thanks for joining the discussion Sarx! I always appreciate your insights. I agree with you on the predators say away from people in the vast wilderness areas. I've camped, hiked and hunted in Idaho and Montana, including camping and hiking with small children. Only once saw a bear and that was far across a field, when he caught wind of us he quickly moved away. I'm more likely to see a bear, coyote, or bobcat here on my property in coastal North Carolina then see such animals in the wilds of Idaho. (We don't have mountain lions here, but we do have bobcats.)

I'm in coastal NC too! There are bears abundant.


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[4senthia]

--I find it incredibly unlikely a cougar would've taken him and left no blood.

-Unlikely he would've fallen in the water with his boot not found nor clothes snagged.

-mine shafts very far away from campsite.

-random abduction incredibly unlikely with all we know about the site.

Correct me if I'm missing important details here

I think you're missing nothing and are one sharp cookie.
Let's just hope this comes to a peaceful conclusion very soon.
jmo

 

[kshultz06082]

Steleman you are probably correct.
But didn't the search continue for a while before the cremains were discovered? IMO even an elderly woman would've been stopped upon entry to an active search location.
IMO they wouldn't let anyone in or out without clearance in such a case.
So this person/s just toddled on down to a place that really no one else was camping at and saw all of the LE cars, SAR etc and dumped the ashes.
My parents are in their 90's and infirmed but even then my mom can still drive. She would not have been allowed entry to that active scene. No way.
jmho

IMO, somebody was at the campground before all searching started, scattered grandpa's ashes at his favorite spot, then they find out there is a child missing and go "oh crap" because they just accidentally messed up the search efforts and so they call LE to let them know of their mistake. LE is grateful they came forward, hence why they are not in any trouble. It was an innocent mistake and they owned up to it. Occams Razor!

 

[LietKynes]

Have to head off to sleep soon... but I was wondering who were the last people to see DeOrr besides his immediate family, great-grandpa & friend ? Anyone else ?
We know without a doubt that DeOrr was with them when they set out to go camping , correct ?
And after they were enroute to the campsite, only the store clerk saw DeOrr with his dad ? ( the clerk who observed the dad buying a chocolate bar for DeOrr because he was crying)

I noticed some news articles capitalized the "O" in the little boy's name and some do not, btw.

Just wondered. And is great-grandpa or his friend going to give a statement ? I was curious about what they had to say.

:moo:

 

[sunflowerchick]

Iirc when looking at the map the mines are nowhere near the campground.

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I will say this again. As someone who comes from an area with mines, the mines on the map were close enough that it is possible that there would be ventilation shafts or other openings.

 

[katydid23]

Have to head off to sleep soon... but I was wondering who were the last people to see DeOrr besides his immediate family, great-grandpa & friend ? Anyone else ?
We know without a doubt that DeOrr was with them when they set out to go camping , correct ?
And after they were enroute to the campsite, only the store clerk saw DeOrr with his dad ? ( the clerk who observed the dad buying a chocolate bar for DeOrr because he was crying)

I noticed some news articles capitalized the "O" in the little boy's name and some do not, btw.

Just wondered. And is great-grandpa or his friend going to give a statement ? I was curious about what they had to say.

:moo:

BBM -----------------------------------YES, I want to hear This^^^^^^^^ ----

I bounce around between a few prevailing theories---lost in woods, snagged in creek, nabbed by hungry cougar....BUT I keep coming back to the unknown family friend because he is the unknown factor. Last person to see the child and he is a total mystery....

 

[Mountain]

If you take a poly with a lawyer, can't you just keep taking it until you pass? Or make sure your lawyer asks the right questions? I'm not accusing, just saying that this doesn't seem like the most unbiased way.

I believe a lawyer will advise you to refuse a polygraph.

 

[4senthia]

IMO, somebody was at the campground before all searching started, scattered grandpa's ashes at his favorite spot, then they find out there is a child missing and go "oh crap" because they just accidentally messed up the search efforts and so they call LE to let them know of their mistake. LE is grateful they came forward, hence why they are not in any trouble. It was an innocent mistake and they owned up to it. Occams Razor!

I see your point but the sheriff said several times they were dumped during the search:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/20...idaho-toddler/
"Cadaver dogs led law enforcement directly to the reservoir but Bowerman said unrelated cremated remains dumped into the water during the search likely prompted the canines' interest"
Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman

jmo

 

[katydid23]

I believe a lawyer will advise you to refuse a polygraph.

My Dad was a very good attorney and he often advised clients to take polygraphs. Unless they were stoned cold guilty of course. :wink:

 

[katydid23]

Originally Posted by eileenhawkeye
If you take a poly with a lawyer, can't you just keep taking it until you pass? Or make sure your lawyer asks the right questions? I'm not accusing, just saying that this doesn't seem like the most unbiased way.
=======================================================================

You don't take the poly 'with a lawyer.' You have to take one with an accredited licensed polygraph facilitator. Otherwise it would not be accepted by LE as any kind of validation if one passed. But taking one in the police station can feel very intimidating. One is more nervous than if you take one in a more 'neutral' office. But you still are hooked up to the machine and your test will be shown to the investigators. They will see the questions asked and the response recorded by the polygraph.

 

[kshultz06082]

http://www.localnews8.com/news/new-details-on-search-for-deorr-kunz-jr/34281340

From your link:

The sheriff also stated that at this time he does not consider the parents to be suspects in the child's disappearance. He confirmed they did take a polygraph test but didn't know when or if the results of the test would be released to the public.

 

[Mountain]

Just FYI---When LE says things like, "We see no evidence of an abduction", or "We don't suspect foul play at this time"....it doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things.

They can NEVER rule anything out (or in, for that matter) until they have significant proof of one or the other.

If I had a nickel for every thread at WS where within the first page or so it was stated that LE says, "There is no sign of foul play"....You know the rest.

I understand that when we're waiting for word on any MP, we tend to over-analyze and scrutinize every word coming from LE, parents, witnesses, etc...but sometimes it will lead you (collectively) down a rabbit hole in which you will never find your way out.

I am in total agreement with you. It means nothing what they say, they do not always disclose to the public their hypothesis until after the warrant has been served and a party have been arrested.

 

[flourish]

Have to head off to sleep soon... but I was wondering who were the last people to see DeOrr besides his immediate family, great-grandpa & friend ? Anyone else ?
We know without a doubt that DeOrr was with them when they set out to go camping , correct ?
And after they were enroute to the campsite, only the store clerk saw DeOrr with his dad ? ( the clerk who observed the dad buying a chocolate bar for DeOrr because he was crying)

I noticed some news articles capitalized the "O" in the little boy's name and some do not, btw.

Just wondered. And is great-grandpa or his friend going to give a statement ? I was curious about what they had to say.

:moo:

From my knowledge, it's DeOrr, but yeah people are dropping the capitalization. Appears to be a family name with an at least one elder family member sharing that as a first or middle name.


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[Elainera]

Can everybody please sort these possible scenarios from Most Likely to Least Likely, according to what they believe?

I think:

1. Fell and drowned in the water (creek or reservoir)
2. Wandered off and got taken by a large animal (bear, lion, wolf)
3. Wandered off and succumbed to the elements
4. Wandered off and fell into a mineshaft or some kind of hole
5. Stranger abduction
6. any other scenario


So how would you sort them?

 

[travelbug]

BBM -----------------------------------YES, I want to hear This^^^^^^^^ ----

I bounce around between a few prevailing theories---lost in woods, snagged in creek, nabbed by hungry cougar....BUT I keep coming back to the unknown family friend because he is the unknown factor. Last person to see the child and he is a total mystery....

BBM But we don't really know if he was with G-GP at the time DeOrr disappeared - do we?! I have only heard the comment that the child was left by the campfire with G-GP, I've never heard a specific reference to where G-GP's friend was at that time. What if the friend took off on a hike and DeOrr chased after him. That could take the trail an entirely different way for the searchers. Or have we been given that information about the friend and I missed it?

 

[4senthia]

I don't believe everything LE says either,
but if Deorr is a victim of kidnapping I think they would continuously hark on that.
To now say he is not, in their opinion, will make many stop looking for him in other places.
jmo

 

[kshultz06082]

Is that normal? The fact that he doesn't know when they were given?

That quote was misquoted...

The sheriff said he did not know when or if the polygraph results would be shared with the public... He did not say he did not know when or where the poly was given.

 

[leilarose68]

Can everybody please sort these possible scenarios from Most Likely to Least Likely, according to what they believe?

I think:

1. Fell and drowned in the water (creek or reservoir)
2. Wandered off and got taken by a large animal (bear, lion, wolf)
3. Wandered off and succumbed to the elements
4. Wandered off and fell into a mineshaft or some kind of hole
5. Stranger abduction
6. any other scenario


So how would you sort them?

hmm i think the only plausible scenario besides 'other' is being taken by a cougar or something. even then i think there would be blood so idk

 

[Sillybilly]

Is there something that is not clear about the reminders and warnings that have been issued in this case?

ADMIN NOTE: Any further speculation about the parents WILL result in a Time Out.

Chief deputy on missing boy's family: 'They're solid
KTVB, KTVB.COM 2:14 p.m. MDT July 16, 2015

[...]
"We've interviewed the family, and the information they've provided us - my office, myself - we're good with that," he said. "And I know there's a lot of innuendo out on social media and a lot of stuff going out there and it would be nice if it would stop and let them have a little peace. They're solid."

 

[steelman]

This may end up being one of the biggest unsolved mysteries that current Websleuths members have ever seen.

This is not the first time something like this has happened out in the wilderness, and it probably won't be the last.

Normally, I would give a sideways glance and a snort when law enforcement proclaims they have done an intensive and exhaustive search....... but not in this case, I think they have inspected every square foot of ground within a 1/2 mile radius of the campground, and most of it 2 or 3 times over.

I have no doubt that the searchers involved in this are frustrated beyond words. It's frustrating to everybody, including cheerleaders on the side, such as every member of Websleuths.

There is a logical explanation for this disappearance. It may be one huge event, or it may be a series of smaller events stacked end to end, but there is an explanation for it.

I think LE is tapped out. I think the parents and granddad passed a polygraph with flying colors. Why do I think that ? ......because LE doesn't seem to have any direction left to go. They are giving statements along the lines of "We're gonna check into this, and we're gonna check into that, blah blah, blah............stuff that should have been verified 8 days ago, and probably was.

While they were out searching, they had detectives running background checks on the entire family and then some. It all led to nothing-ness. Anybody that doesn't think the cops were investigating foul play while this search was going on, underestimates how cynical the cops can be.

There's a chance we may never know what happened to him. I come across numerous threads here on Websleuths that go back 20 or 30 years since a person was reported missing, never to be found.

They just didn't happen to be in the middle of a campsite when they were last seen.