ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #20

[ILOKAL]

Not sure if your question has been answered yet...have been off the computer today but here is my late night attempt. I was not there so my comments are pure speculation and opinion.

For live find dogs looking for live people, if you are asking about what we consider "scent specific" dogs VS "non scent specific dogs" then the difference is that a scent specific dog will be scented on an item that is as uncontaminated a scent sample as possible, from the person they are asked to look for. That dog will go search specifically for that source of scent. These dogs might be Air Scent dogs, sniffing the air for that scent or Trailing dogs, trying to find a trail on the ground from the last known point the person was seen.

A non scent specific AIR scent dog will go out into the search area and find ANY human being alive it runs into. This is fine if the search area is well managed and not flooded with other people searching.

I have posted many times that in my opinion, one of the problems in attempting to find a baby and scenting a dog on an item from them, is that there is no item that you can use from a baby that hasn't been touched by another human. If I was in this situation I would attempt to find something that was as saturated with the baby's scent as possible and see if it would be possible to locate off that. Items perhaps like a car seat, bed, blanket, etc... It HAS been done but contamination can be a challenge.

You want to get the live find dogs in their as soon as possible so there is the least amount of scent contamination from other searchers.

Cadaver dogs are deployed when LE has a concern that a death has occurred. This might be at anytime during the initial search or years and years after that. Some of the difficulties include weather, terrain, and animal contamination. They will run the wind (Air Scent) or detail search rocks, debris, rubble, etc. In general, they will find anything in their trained scent library which usually includes bones, blood, tissue, teeth, body fluids including those from decomposition, adipocere, and of course cremains.

Hope this helps. There are a lot of posts in the archives from folks who have a lot more experience then I do. This is just from the best of my knowledge and of course, my own personal opinion.

Thank you Onebest for taking the time to answer my post. I can see why finding a baby poses greater challenges. I never had considered the mixed scents from the caregivers. Let me ask you this. Let's say for example, DeOrr's blanket was used to scent the dogs and it had also been handled by Jessica. Would this give the dogs two completely different scents, one being DeOrr's and the other being Jessica's, or would their combination create a new scent? If the two scents remain isolated, would the dogs then track to Jessica?

 

[TanTanWawa]

agreed, tantanwawa. in the same vein I hold those accountable for those that in the blink of an eye "lose sight" of their children, never recover them, and set up 'gofundme' accounts. not saying this is the case with deorr, but said accounts make me want to vomit.

I'm alone on this, but again (let's hash it out one more time):

<modsnip>
- don't say to the public when you last saw your child
- drive into g-d's country, no-man's-land with your child
- lie to the cops (LE, FBI, PI's, I don't care which), or, to be politically correct, are "less than truthful".

and sleep in a suburban on a "planned camping trip" with someone you've never met and a dude on oxygen. whilst the locals (store clerk, RC) have never stated publically to the media that they ever saw this child.

c'mon folks. what the heck am I missing???

Wow. So hostile. I don't think you're from around here. I could answer at least four of those questions with that's what the locals do... we don't have a lot of money to pay for extravagant things like PIs, we take our newborns and medical devices camping in bear country, and you can fit a full size mattress in back of an old suburban. It gets really cold at night this high in the mountains, even in July. None of this is out of the norm out in god's country...as you put it. <modsnip>

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[The Apparition]

They would have arrested someone.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

The usual caveats apply, we are all just interested parties posting on a website. That being said, plenty of time LE knows a crime was committed but needs to gather the PROOF. I still hold out hope that this wasn't an actual murder, I'm leaning towards terrible accident with some unusual circumstances that lead the parties to cover it up. Not to be morbid but whatever charges may apply having a body is very critical. If charges are pressed now a D.A and a Grand Jury might be hard pressed to pursue a case without more physical proof.

I would say IMHO the parents know something. The fact they can't provide a basic consistent timeline is the biggest red flag. If you have nothing to hide and you believe your kid is actually alive and missing, I'm sure you could cobble together a real workable timeline. Something bad happened and LE and the PI's know this, whoever is the guilty party must be sweating.

 

[Rayemonde]

I think this might be the "documentary" they took part it, but I don't think any of the family have said for sure this is the one. So jmo.

https://www.sasquatchchronicles.com/missing-411-the-movie/

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

I think this might be the "documentary" they took part it, but I don't think any of the family have said for sure this is the one. So jmo.

https://www.sasquatchchronicles.com/missing-411-the-movie/

I believe PI Vilt said that the documentary no longer would have anything to do with DeOrr since the parents were named suspects.

P.S. On a side note, I wanted to give a big shout out to the WebSleuths <modsnip>... :loveyou:

 

[Rayemonde]

Namus has a picture of him with the boots, but it's hard to see:

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/case_report_html/29726

I think the boots existed, but I think it was a fabrication that they were 3 sizes too big.

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

I think the boots existed, but I think it was a fabrication that they were 3 sizes too big.

Wow, I've never seen these photos all in one place. Never has there been a MISSING flyer that I have seen that specifically pointed out that scar/birthmark on the back of his neck or the exact boots he was wearing. Interesting...

 

[TanTanWawa]

The usual caveats apply, we are all just interested parties posting on a website. That being said, plenty of time LE knows a crime was committed but needs to gather the PROOF. I still hold out hope that this wasn't an actual murder, I'm leaning towards terrible accident with some unusual circumstances that lead the parties to cover it up. Not to be morbid but whatever charges may apply having a body is very critical. If charges are pressed now a D.A and a Grand Jury might be hard pressed to pursue a case without more physical proof.

I would say IMHO the parents know something. The fact they can't provide a basic consistent timeline is the biggest red flag. If you have nothing to hide and you believe your kid is actually alive and missing, I'm sure you could cobble together a real workable timeline. Something bad happened and LE and the PI's know this, whoever is the guilty party must be sweating.

But they haven't been gathering evidence. They didn't think they were involved until they sent a polygraph to the FBI for analysis, and they gave the opinion the family wasn't being truthful. The grandfather already has issues that affect his memory of the events, so they just have mom and dad to go on from a failed polygraph analysis. The investigators always maintained they were all cooperative, with IR being the most consistent with the timeline. The 3 hrs of time is from the trip to the store until the call to 911 at 2:26pm. IR said he last saw Deorr around 1pm. That's just what I got from the Sheriff's interview.

Not sure if your question has been answered yet...have been off the computer today but here is my late night attempt. I was not there so my comments are pure speculation and opinion.

For live find dogs looking for live people, if you are asking about what we consider "scent specific" dogs VS "non scent specific dogs" then the difference is that a scent specific dog will be scented on an item that is as uncontaminated a scent sample as possible, from the person they are asked to look for. That dog will go search specifically for that source of scent. These dogs might be Air Scent dogs, sniffing the air for that scent or Trailing dogs, trying to find a trail on the ground from the last known point the person was seen.

A non scent specific AIR scent dog will go out into the search area and find ANY human being alive it runs into. This is fine if the search area is well managed and not flooded with other people searching.

I have posted many times that in my opinion, one of the problems in attempting to find a baby and scenting a dog on an item from them, is that there is no item that you can use from a baby that hasn't been touched by another human. If I was in this situation I would attempt to find something that was as saturated with the baby's scent as possible and see if it would be possible to locate off that. Items perhaps like a car seat, bed, blanket, etc... It HAS been done but contamination can be a challenge.

You want to get the live find dogs in their as soon as possible so there is the least amount of scent contamination from other searchers.

Cadaver dogs are deployed when LE has a concern that a death has occurred. This might be at anytime during the initial search or years and years after that. Some of the difficulties include weather, terrain, and animal contamination. They will run the wind (Air Scent) or detail search rocks, debris, rubble, etc. In general, they will find anything in their trained scent library which usually includes bones, blood, tissue, teeth, body fluids including those from decomposition, adipocere, and of course cremains.

Hope this helps. There are a lot of posts in the archives from folks who have a lot more experience then I do. This is just from the best of my knowledge and of course, my own personal opinion.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[TanTanWawa]

The clerk didn't remember the dad being there, either. It took dad going in to the store with the receipt before the clerk remembered he had been there. I don't think the clerk is a good witness to whether Deorr was there or not.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[Wendy101]

Wow, I've never seen these photos all in one place. Never has there been a MISSING flyer that I have seen that specifically pointed out that scar/birthmark on the back of his neck or the exact boots he was wearing. Interesting...

ITA! Also it looks as if the pic of the PJ pants he was last seen in.. Looks like he was an infant.. Like maybe a one yr old? Compared to the pic above where he is seen in the socks he wore when he went missing...

Do they have the height and weight right? He seems to be a smaller boy for his age??

 

[The Apparition]

I hear what you are saying. I certainly hope the sheriff is playing coy. He has no reason to come out and say anything. His words will end up in a court of law so he is well served to be quiet. I really think he suspected the parents long before the poly results came back from the fbi. Once again telling the parents he doesn't believe them makes them shut up and lawyer up, telling "us" serves no purpose either. I imagine they have plenty of evidence already, a body is not mandatory but really would put the finishing touches on the case LE is working on. Personally when the PI talks I imagine he knows/guesses the same things LE does, he is just at more liberty to speak freely.

 

[DatelineFan]

But they haven't been gathering evidence. They didn't think they were involved until they sent a polygraph to the FBI for analysis, and they gave the opinion the family wasn't being truthful. The grandfather already has issues that affect his memory of the events, so they just have mom and dad to go on from a failed polygraph analysis. The investigators always maintained they were all cooperative, with IR being the most consistent with the timeline. The 3 hrs of time is from the trip to the store until the call to 911 at 2:26pm. IR said he last saw Deorr around 1pm. That's just what I got from the Sheriff's interview.



Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Not to be argumentative or anything, but how, exactly do you know they haven't been gathering evidence, or that they didn't suspect the parents' until the FBI analysis?

I believe there's plenty of information LE has very wisely not shared with the public.

 

[TanTanWawa]

Yes but deceptive isn't necessarily because of a homicide. Perhaps they felt they were responsible for his disappearance because they weren't watching him. Do they know where he is? Probably dead or kidnapped after such a huge search, and overnight temps...and the reservior is like RIGHT there... they could be saying "no", and still have a guilty conscience that they lost him. I don't think this science is 100%, either. They're going to need something more concrete. The conjecture is getting pretty crazy out there. Anywhere from him being sold for drugs to burning him in a fire pit. How people can just pull this out of their head is beyond me.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[TanTanWawa]

Not to be argumentative or anything, but how, exactly do you know they haven't been gathering evidence, or that they didn't suspect the parents' until the FBI analysis?

I believe there's plenty of information LE has very wisely not shared with the public.

The interview with the sheriff posted on this thread.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[DatelineFan]

The interview with the sheriff posted on this thread.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Yeah, that's what he shared with the public. I don't think LE often spills all to the media. SB has been very thoughtful about what he shares and when, in my opinion. I guess we'll just have to see. [emoji4]

ETA that I completely agree with the end of your other post. I think some of the speculation has been a bit extreme.

 

[TanTanWawa]

He was asked why they weren't suspects a few months ago, he said they were waiting for FBI analysis to come back. Unless I missed an interview, there hasn't been any physical evidence of a crime. Just discrepancies in testimonies. Perhaps they aren't saying and they really have physical evidence. Until then, I'm not going to assume they murdered the kid, either.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[TanTanWawa]

Didn't the FBI help with the Ramsey case? Never found out who killed that little girl, and they had a body. They fried her (now deceased) parents in the court of public opinion fairly early on. Lots of evidence and no arrests in that case. I hope that doesn't happen again.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[Karinna]

Investigators decided the timeline wasn't matching up, and that was suspicious in itself. They couldn't keep the timeline straight, and said it was the little things that changed. I'm not sure I would even know the time when I'm camping. I probably wouldn't feel like I lost track of my child for very long. No parent ever does. I have thought that they may well have been near camp, not hiking, but smoking a joint. It would account for not knowing how long they were gone, the confusion of who was watching him, and the chaos after. It's not unusual to go camping and spark one up. They could never come clean about losing the baby when they were off getting stoned. It would still seem like they were being untruthful, although it could have still been an unfortunate accident. Of course, this is all just conjecture. Another way of looking at the testimony and behavior, beyond a murder cover up.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

I thought of this kind of scenario as well. If they all shared a joint together, maybe not GGP, but the others or just the parents to relax, then i think it is possible with the short term memory loss that goes with that, which could come across as deceptive to the authorities if a person has guilty knowledge about what they were doing just prior to their child's disappearance, especially if they were smoking drugs. So they would be blaming themselves for it. And as we know a little 2 yr. old can be very quick at escaping when no one is looking. Also remembering exactly what was what and when could also be a factor, and maybe that is why the discrepencies of the poly's. The results were inconclusive after all.
Unless there is some concrete evidence that Deorr was deceased in the vehicle or campground, then i'm not sure what else they have got? I also hope they keep searching for him if and when that will be possible. I initially thought he could of drowned because little kids that age gravitate to water.

 

[Midge Montana]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if I woke up in the morning and the news was that the parents have decided to tell the whole truth about what they know and want to help rather than hinder the investigation into the disappearance of their two year old beautiful child.
If they'd tell the true story of what happened? Because let's face it, since they're telling conflicting and changing stories, they all can't be true.
Whether it was an accident, something more sinister or even if they're innocent in his disappearance, being 100% truthful and stopping the confusing story-telling would be a HUGE step toward either clearing them or alternatively finding little DeOrr now wouldn't it?
With that, I'm off to sleep and I'll be hoping to wake up to some news that, even if not good, will at least be productive.
Goodnight all.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I'm sure people do it, but possessing or consuming alcohol is forbidden.

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3837688.pdf

These three don't strike me as the sit around the fire and throw back a few cold ones, but that's JMO.

Wait what? You're not allowed to take alcohol to a campsite?!