ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #21

[Dee10]

The Sheriff has said their stories don't match and their stories keep changing. Maybe the additional polys came into play when their stories changed to see if the new story was actually the truth? We know one of the two had an additional poly for reasons unknown.

 

[Donjeta]

I have no idea. I'm trying to figure that out. I don't think they would just ask those two questions and leave it at that. But I really would love to know what other questions they passed that SB made a point of saying they passed or didn't want people thinking that they failed the rest of the test. I don't know what exactly that means but it's got to mean something or els SB wouldn't of felt the need to say that imo. Unless he had to say that because the test results were inconclusive which would make the most sense. And in that case then the ldt means nothing to me considering all four would then be inconclusive and I do not think all four are in on this.

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Bowerman says portions of polygraph tests administered to Kunz and Mitchell have come back “less than truthful” – including questions about knowing what happened to DeOrr, why the child disappeared and where the toddler is located.

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/0...ruthful-are-suspects-in-childs-disappearance/
JMO it sounds like they failed where it counts.

 

[Rayemonde]

I read about two other seemingly similar cases today.

Jhessye Shockley, Arizona, 5 years old, amber alert issued in 2011 after her mother reported her missing from the home. Mother later convicted of 1st degree murder even though no body was ever found.

Sylar Newton, 2 years old, disappeared in 2010 on a camping trip. Skeletal remains found 2 weeks later by a volunteer searcher (and distant relative of Sylar), in a spot in the river that had already been searched by search and rescue several times. LE said the body had been intentionally hidden, and that's why they didn't find it - they weren't looking for a body that had been hidden, but a toddler that had wandered off.
The mother later confessed that the child had gotten into some drugs she had brought - klonopin. She said he was groggy and falling down when they last saw him alive. She had also brought cannabis and methodone on the trip.
Cause of death could not be determined from the remains.
The mother and grandmother were convicted of child abuse, for failing to call 911. The mother got 17 years in prison, whereas the grandmother just got lifetime probation.

http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1087&articleID=107305

Collection of archived articles about Sylar Newton's case:
http://www.justice4caylee.org/t7623-sylar-newton-2-yo-2010-camp-verde-s-of-flagstaff-az

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

[FONT=&quot]For what it's worth, I'm not sure why we are discussing the polygraphs. I mean, yes, I understand that LE and the FBI are both using them as a means to get to the bottom of what happened to Little DeOrr, but they aren't even admissible in court so is it even worth us arguing about? We have absolutely NO clue as to what questions Jessica and Vernal were even asked.

My theory (which I developed only AFTER the recent dump of information by LE, Klein and Vilt) was that Little DeOrr's disappearance must have had something to do with some sort of child ring. Why else would you be involved in the disappearance of your own child? In my non-twisted mind, it just HAS to be something horrendous like that. But I've been thinking, what if it wasn't like that at all? Could it be that it was something as simple as one (or both) of them were tired of being tied down by a toddler and wanted to be free? It's certainly possible.


:thinking:
[/FONT]

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I read about two other seemingly similar cases today.

Jhessye Shockley, Arizona, 5 years old, amber alert issued in 2011 after her mother reported her missing from the home. Mother later convicted of 1st degree murder even though no body was ever found.

Sylar Newton, 2 years old, disappeared in 2010 on a camping trip. Skeletal remains found 2 weeks later by a volunteer searcher (and distant relative of Sylar), in a spot in the river that had already been searched by search and rescue several times. LE said the body had been intentionally hidden, and that's why they didn't find it - they weren't looking for a body that had been hidden, but a toddler that had wandered off.
The mother later confessed that the child had gotten into some drugs she had brought - klonopin. She said he was groggy and falling down when they last saw him alive. She had also brought cannabis and methodone on the trip.
Cause of death could not be determined from the remains.
The mother and grandmother were convicted of child abuse, for failing to call 911. The mother got 17 years in prison, whereas the grandmother just got lifetime probation.

http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1087&articleID=107305

Collection of archived articles about Sylar Newton's case:
http://www.justice4caylee.org/t7623-sylar-newton-2-yo-2010-camp-verde-s-of-flagstaff-az

bbm

In case SN there seems to be everything included what we speculated about in case Deorr ... Nothing is impossible! A mix of neglect, adoption, camping, drugs, later on dead body despite several searches before (what I expect to come in case Deorr), no help from family and so on.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...newton-missing-flagstaff-boy-family-life.html

 

[desert-blue]

I had this horrible dream last night that the family had decided it would be better to lay all the blame on GGPA since he is old and confused - basically using his mental confusion to coerce him into "taking one for the team," figuring his life expectancy isn't that long and maybe his mental confusion will get him some leniency. That way JM and DK will be off the hook and free to carry on with their lives. GGPA will confess to the crime and accept sole responsibility. I woke up and couldn't go back to sleep and still can't get it out of my head... Please tell me this is just a crazy dream and couldn't really happen.

 

[Tr.]

I read about two other seemingly similar cases today.

Jhessye Shockley, Arizona, 5 years old, amber alert issued in 2011 after her mother reported her missing from the home. Mother later convicted of 1st degree murder even though no body was ever found.

Sylar Newton, 2 years old, disappeared in 2010 on a camping trip. Skeletal remains found 2 weeks later by a volunteer searcher (and distant relative of Sylar), in a spot in the river that had already been searched by search and rescue several times. LE said the body had been intentionally hidden, and that's why they didn't find it - they weren't looking for a body that had been hidden, but a toddler that had wandered off.
The mother later confessed that the child had gotten into some drugs she had brought - klonopin. She said he was groggy and falling down when they last saw him alive. She had also brought cannabis and methodone on the trip.
Cause of death could not be determined from the remains.
The mother and grandmother were convicted of child abuse, for failing to call 911. The mother got 17 years in prison, whereas the grandmother just got lifetime probation.

http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1087&articleID=107305

Collection of archived articles about Sylar Newton's case:
http://www.justice4caylee.org/t7623-sylar-newton-2-yo-2010-camp-verde-s-of-flagstaff-az

Yes, that's an interesting story. I remember them interviewing the bio-mom on local news.
I've wondered if maybe the the relative /searcher had some inside info (maybe from the grandma) that told her where to look.

 

[Butler]

[FONT=&amp]For what it's worth, I'm not sure why we are discussing the polygraphs. I mean, yes, I understand that LE and the FBI are both using them as a means to get to the bottom of what happened to Little DeOrr, but they aren't even admissible in court so is it even worth us arguing about? We have absolutely NO clue as to what questions Jessica and Vernal were even asked.

While polygraph results can not be used in a court of law, they can be effective tools in an investigation. We don't know the specific questions they were "less than truthful" on and may never know. However, we do know from SB statement that the questions are related to know where DeOrr is and what happened to him.

My theory (which I developed only AFTER the recent dump of information by LE, Klein and Vilt) was that Little DeOrr's disappearance must have had something to do with some sort of child ring. Why else would you be involved in the disappearance of your own child? In my non-twisted mind, it just HAS to be something horrendous like that. But I've been thinking, what if it wasn't like that at all? Could it be that it was something as simple as one (or both) of them were tired of being tied down by a toddler and wanted to be free? It's certainly possible.


:thinking:
[/FONT]

What made you come up with this?

 

[Butler]

I had this horrible dream last night that the family had decided it would be better to lay all the blame on GGPA since he is old and confused - basically using his mental confusion to coerce him into "taking one for the team," figuring his life expectancy isn't that long and maybe his mental confusion will get him some leniency. That way JM and DK will be off the hook and free to carry on with their lives. GGPA will confess to the crime and accept sole responsibility. I woke up and couldn't go back to sleep and still can't get it out of my head... Please tell me this is just a crazy dream and couldn't really happen.

I think is't just a crazy dream. I would think this would have been done already if they were going to do this.

 

[ClaireNC]

I had this horrible dream last night that the family had decided it would be better to lay all the blame on GGPA since he is old and confused - basically using his mental confusion to coerce him into "taking one for the team," figuring his life expectancy isn't that long and maybe his mental confusion will get him some leniency. That way JM and DK will be off the hook and free to carry on with their lives. GGPA will confess to the crime and accept sole responsibility. I woke up and couldn't go back to sleep and still can't get it out of my head... Please tell me this is just a crazy dream and couldn't really happen.

It has seemed at times like JM and VDK were trying to place the blame on GGP. IMO Could they get him to make a false confession? That depends on his mental state. We don't really know much of anything about GGP.

I've wondered about the 911 call that reportedly came from GGP. If he was the first to call, was his call the thing that prompted JM and DK to jump into action? Maybe GGP said "I'm worried about baby Deorr I haven't seen him all day" or something along those lines. Maybe JM and/or DK heard him make the call and went into panic mode and created this whole story on the spur of the moment. I wish LE would release GGP's 911 call.

 

[Paulas88]

I had this horrible dream last night that the family had decided it would be better to lay all the blame on GGPA since he is old and confused - basically using his mental confusion to coerce him into "taking one for the team," figuring his life expectancy isn't that long and maybe his mental confusion will get him some leniency. That way JM and DK will be off the hook and free to carry on with their lives. GGPA will confess to the crime and accept sole responsibility. I woke up and couldn't go back to sleep and still can't get it out of my head... Please tell me this is just a crazy dream and couldn't really happen.

I had a crazy dream about another case I'm following at WS. Made me realize how
deeply I've immeshed some of these cases and really want resolve.

Oh, and... If my dream comes true, and the perp gets the death penalty (in a state that doesn't have it) I'll be quite impressed with my self, and start dream journaling

 

[Tr.]

I had this horrible dream last night that the family had decided it would be better to lay all the blame on GGPA since he is old and confused - basically using his mental confusion to coerce him into "taking one for the team," figuring his life expectancy isn't that long and maybe his mental confusion will get him some leniency. That way JM and DK will be off the hook and free to carry on with their lives. GGPA will confess to the crime and accept sole responsibility. I woke up and couldn't go back to sleep and still can't get it out of my head... Please tell me this is just a crazy dream and couldn't really happen.

Good point. Sounds as though they've already tried to lay it in his lap.
The location and condition of Deorr's remains (when they are discovered) will help us understand what actually transpired..imo

 

[ILOKAL]

[FONT="]For what it's worth, I'm not sure why we are discussing the polygraphs. I mean, yes, I understand that LE and the FBI are both using them as a means to get to the bottom of what happened to Little DeOrr, but they aren't even admissible in court so is it even worth us arguing about? We have absolutely NO clue as to what questions Jessica and Vernal were even asked.

My theory (which I developed only AFTER the recent dump of information by LE, Klein and Vilt) was that Little DeOrr's disappearance must have had something to do with some sort of child ring. Why else would you be involved in the disappearance of your own child? In my non-twisted mind, it just HAS to be something horrendous like that. But I've been thinking, what if it wasn't like that at all? Could it be that it was something as simple as one (or both) of them were tired of being tied down by a toddler and wanted to be free? It's certainly possible.


:thinking:
[/FONT]

Since the inconclusive polygraphs of the ONLY POI's in this case made headline news, it seems a bit odd to see a special request that they not be discussed. Otoh, I have seen nothing that would even begin to indicate that child was involved in DeOrr's disappearance <modsnip>

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

It has seemed at times like JM and VDK were trying to place the blame on GGP. IMO Could they get him to make a false confession? That depends on his mental state. We don't really know much of anything about GGP.

I've wondered about the 911 call that reportedly came from GGP. If he was the first to call, was his call the thing that prompted JM and DK to jump into action? Maybe GGP said "I'm worried about baby Deorr I haven't seen him all day" or something along those lines. Maybe JM and/or DK heard him make the call and went into panic mode and created this whole story on the spur of the moment. I wish LE would release GGP's 911 call.

Very interesting theory, indeed! I had never thought of that possibility, but it sure is likely. There's a reason why they aren't releasing Vernal's and GGP's 911 calls. I bet they all contradict each other.

 

[Rayemonde]

I was interested to read in Sylar's case that bloodhounds would not find him, and the FBI said after a few days searching that Sylar was definitely not in the search area. Yet the remains were found within the search area, only about a mile from where the family were camping. LE said the body had been disturbed from where it was hidden by flash floods.

I can't find if anyone ever admitted hiding the body, or if they maintained that he wandered away. The mother and grandmother took a plea deal, so the details never came out in a trial. Other campers had seen them verbally abusing Sylar and pushing him over before he disappeared, and heard him crying for a long time.

 

[haven71]

The Sheriff has said their stories don't match and their stories keep changing. Maybe the additional polys came into play when their stories changed to see if the new story was actually the truth? We know one of the two had an additional poly for reasons unknown.

Very good point, Dee10!

 

[desert-blue]

The polygraphs were mentioned by LE because they (the polygraphs) back up the fact that the parents can't keep their stories straight and are being less than truthful about the events of July 10th. If a person doesn't think the polygraphs are valid or doesn't believe in polygraphs at all or thinks the parents failed the pertinent questions for some other reasons, then that is fine, but it does not change the fact that the parents have been named as suspects. I think it goes without saying that LE has a lot more evidence besides polygraphs (and ever-changing stories) that led them to declare the parents as suspects. They aren't admissible in court so let's throw out the polys and move on.

 

[neesaki]

I was interested to read in Sylar's case that bloodhounds would not find him, and the FBI said after a few days searching that Sylar was definitely not in the search area. Yet the remains were found within the search area, only about a mile from where the family were camping. LE said the body had been disturbed from where it was hidden by flash floods.

I can't find if anyone ever admitted hiding the body, or if they maintained that he wandered away. The mother and grandmother took a plea deal, so the details never came out in a trial. Other campers had seen them verbally abusing Sylar and pushing him over before he disappeared, and heard him crying for a long time.

Oh that's so horrible, I wouldn't doubt that those hateful, despicable women gave him the drugs on purpose. :tears:

 

[desert-blue]

Very interesting theory, indeed! I had never thought of that possibility, but it sure is likely. There's a reason why they aren't releasing Vernal's and GGP's 911 calls. I bet they all contradict each other.

I wonder that too. You would think that would have been a red flag from the very get-go, though, that something wasn't right and makes you wonder why it wasn't treated as a crime scene from the very beginning (unless it was, and LE is just being sly....).

 

[Jackeee]

Marking my spot after 3 days of catching up. Not much new here but there's still lots of lively discussion. I just hope something breaks soon.