ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #22

[persimmon]

You'll have to take it as rumour because I think it's been deleted now, but JM said on facebook that the store clerk first said she saw a filthy bawling baby, then changed her story and said she didn't remember seeing a baby. Which sounds pretty unlikely to me. I think it's more likely J and V made up the whole thing. Jmo.

I always assumed that came from LE. Hmmmm.

 

[TxJan1971]

Here's what the key players have said about the store clerk sighting:

Jessica:

Interviewer: is there any rumors or anything you've seen that you want to clear up, Jessica?

Jessica: I just, somebody at the store, um at Leador, said, it was one of the ladies that had worked at the store, said that they saw, um, a gentleman and a younger blonde boy matching our description of our son, really filthy, buying candy for him, and he was just bawling, in a black truck. That is the only other...

DeOrre Sr.: There's a problem, my pick-up truck is black..

Jessica: he drives a black truck.

DeOrre Sr.: as a family, we went down to get a few things. It was me, but they claim it was at six o clock...that afternoon, evening, but we..were...

Jessica: Earlier, it was earlier that day

Vilt:

“When [the family] went into town the morning after they arrived, they picked a few groceries up and bought some French fries for DeOrr Jr.,” Vilt said. “There was a man who was staring at DeOrr and this made Jessica feel kind of eery. I’m looking into it.”
http://q13fox.com/2015/08/11/privat...amily-of-missing-idaho-toddler-deorr-kunz-jr/

Sheriff B.:

TG: <snipped> ...when Deorr was seen at the store, with his parents, do you know for certain if he was ever actually seen at the store? That just seems real ambiguous uh to any

SB: Well, initially um the store salesperson didn&#8217;t remember uh the encounter. When the father uh&#8230; I call him Vernal instead of Deorr, it&#8217;s Vernal Deorr Kunz&#8230;when Vernal and his wife came back to the store several days later then the salesperson said, &#8220;Oh, yeah, I remember you!&#8221;

02:45
SB: Now I&#8217;m not sure&#8230;I don&#8217;t recall her saying specifically that she remembered the child. She remembered them talking about their child, and they bought some candy and some other items, and we have a dated and time-stamped receipt, so we know they were in the store. And someone while they were fueling up said they thought they saw a child in the back seat, but that hasn&#8217;t been ever positively stated that there was a child there, but ya&#8217; know at this point, I&#8217;m believing the family!

03:18
TG: Well, and the thing is, a busy day like that camping, nobody&#8217;s going to think, I better remember who&#8217;s in the store. It just doesn&#8217;t work like that.

03:26
SB: Yeah, exactly. It&#8217;s not uncommon. It&#8217;s a small community, and uh the salesclerk said she was really busy, and she was having difficulty remembering them being in the store, but when she saw them, she said, Oh, I remember talking to you.

NOTE: See Neesaki's Post #943 directly below this post to add another SB statement.


Klein:

NR: Sorry if this has been asked. When was the last time someone OTHER than Reinwand, Walton, Mitchell and Kunz saw DeOrr?

RJ: Yeah, and not vague "well, there might have been a child in store" sightings... When was the last time someone definitely saw him in Idaho Falls? The extended family have never said when they last saw him. And did he seem healthy and happy the last time he was seen?

Klein Investigations and Consulting There are none.

 

[neesaki]

But the store clerk doesn't even remember seeing a child. That's the strange thing. Why bring up a filthy, bawling child when the clerk never even saw a filthy, bawling child?

Yet in Tricia's interview with Sheriff B on January 28th, he said the clerk possibly saw a child but wasn't sure if it was a boy or a girl. I agree though, why tell this story about a filthy, bawling child with a man in a black truck ? That was very off , IMO.

09:54
Bessie: I see. Well, that&#8230;and then that would take us back to&#8230; This is a big question everyone here has. The trip to the store and the time-stamped receipt that we&#8217;ve heard exists, um, was that &#8211; was that a receipt that, and I don&#8217;t know if you can answer but, did the parents give that receipt or yeah, was your department able to&#8230;to get that receipt from the store independently of the parents?

10:26
SB: Well, I&#8217;m sure we got a copy from the store, but we went back and clarified from the store that that was a receipt from their store and for those particular items, and I think we were able to tell that most of those items were purchased. Um&#8230;I don&#8217;t think there was any question there, but then we also asked the clerk, did you see a child? Initially she didn&#8217;t even remember the parents, but when Vernal, the father, went back in there and quizzed her, she said, Oh, I remember you, but when he quizzed her about, do you remember seeing my son, she said, uh&#8230; I remember a child possibly, but I couldn&#8217;t tell if it was a male or a female.

 

[TxJan1971]

I'm still unsure whether there were two store clerks. JM, when relating the filthy, bawling child story said: "One of the ladies at the store said"

If there were two store clerks could it be that one witnessed the filthy, bawling child and the other is the witness that served JM and VDK?

Does anyone know if there were two store clerks working there?

BBM: It's never been stated in MSM to my knowledge.

 

[jessie]

You'll have to take it as rumour because I think it's been deleted now, but JM said on facebook that the store clerk first said she saw a filthy bawling baby, then changed her story and said she didn't remember seeing a baby. Which sounds pretty unlikely to me. I think it's more likely J and V made up the whole thing. Jmo.

I just want to understand and be clear. So this report that the store clerk saw a "filthy, bawling child" - (in a black car)? was only reported on SM by JM??
I don't do facebook or SM (and NO I don't consider WS to be SM) so only know what I read here.
I understood that this was 'evidence' taken from the store clerk by LE. But was this only from JM's mouth?? Unbelievable.

Re: the 911 phone calls - I got quite behind on a few threads and have been catching up, and somewhere here I read or heard (interview from a link) that GGP made the first phone call. I do apologise that I can't refer back to this atm.

Perhaps bessie will delete all this, as I'm unable to quote/link and I don't want to give inaccurate information.

 

[TxJan1971]

I just want to understand and be clear. So this report that the store clerk saw a "filthy, bawling child" - (in a black car)? was only reported on SM by JM??
I don't do facebook or SM (and NO I don't consider WS to be SM) so only know what I read here.
I understood that this was 'evidence' taken from the store clerk by LE. But was this only from JM's mouth?? Unbelievable.

Re: the 911 phone calls - I got quite behind on a few threads and have been catching up, and somewhere here I read or heard (interview from a link) that GGP made the first phone call. I do apologise that I can't refer back to this atm.

Perhaps bessie will delete all this, as I'm unable to quote/link and I don't want to give inaccurate information.

BBM:

911 calls were re-discussed back about post #882 (this thread)

Klein Investigations and Consulting There were three 911 calls which are public - 14:22, 14:26 and 14:28 hours on the 10th. January 11 at 5:25pm

BOS: Who made the 3rd phone call to 911. Was there a disposable phone in the hands of anyone while camping?
Klein Investigations and Consulting There were three calls made to 911. First, Vernal. Second, Jessica. Third, the grandfather.

Note: Regardless of the above Klein statement, the 911 call, by Jessica, audio clearly states in the beginning that the call was received (by JM) at 2:28 p.m! Therefore, JM had to have been last according to the first statement by Klein above.

Link to Jessica's 911 call audio:
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07...cant-find-him/

 

[TxJan1971]

I just want to understand and be clear. So this report that the store clerk saw a "filthy, bawling child" - (in a black car)? was only reported on SM by JM??
I don't do facebook or SM (and NO I don't consider WS to be SM) so only know what I read here.
I understood that this was 'evidence' taken from the store clerk by LE. But was this only from JM's mouth?? Unbelievable.

Re: the 911 phone calls - I got quite behind on a few threads and have been catching up, and somewhere here I read or heard (interview from a link) that GGP made the first phone call. I do apologise that I can't refer back to this atm.

Perhaps bessie will delete all this, as I'm unable to quote/link and I don't want to give inaccurate information.

BBM
While JM "may" have talked about this on "social media," Jessica actually told us about this "rumored" store clerk sighting when both parents gave their first media interview with Nate Eaton and the first question Nate asked was if Jessica wanted to clear up any rumors, etc., and she tells us about this rumored store clerk sighting. See my previous post #942 above for exact content.

 

[Rayemonde]

BBM
While JM "may" have talked about this on "social media," Jessica actually told us about this "rumored" store clerk sighting when both parents gave their first media interview with Nate Eaton and the first question Nate asked was if Jessica wanted to clear up any rumors, etc., and she tells us about this rumored store clerk sighting. See my previous post #942 above for exact content.

That's right. Thanks for providing all the quotes. So my thing is, if the store clerk remembered seeing a filthy bawling boy, why did SB say the clerk can't remember for sure whether they saw a child.... It doesn't make sense that the clerk would say they saw a filthy bawling boy, then change her story and say she didn't remember for sure if a child was there.

 

[sonjay]

But the store clerk doesn't even remember seeing a child. That's the strange thing. Why bring up a filthy, bawling child when the clerk never even saw a filthy, bawling child?

In looking at the various interview snippets about the filthy bawling child, I'm not convinced there was ever a filthy bawling DeOrr at any store at any point during that trip.

Remember, the parents are known to LE to be lying. We really can't take anything they say at face value. Unless the filthy bawling child at a store can be verified independently by some other witness or by surveillance video, I see no reason to believe that such a scenario ever existed.

I do wonder if there was a filthy bawling DeOrr at some point who upset his parents so badly that he ended up dead.

 

[jessie]

Thanks Tex1971 Yep I have read all the posts recently that discuss the calls. It is because of these posts that I mention somewhere in the past it was said 'officially'(?) that GGP made the first call. I will try to find where I heard it.

Also I did see the parents' interviews at the time, only I obviously misunderstood when JM mention the "filthy, bawling child" because I wrongly assumed that this was 'officially reported'. Stupid me eh ! Liar, liar, pants on fire ?
Thanks for helping me out here.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

Someone did ask yesterday on KIC's Facebook page what order the calls were made and the answer is negative, goes to timeline...

I find it odd as Klein did reveal GGP's call and listed the times calls were made, so why not which order? It can only be one or the other of 2:22pm or 2:26pm for GGP/VDK and both of those coming before JM's is already a bit odd to me.

 

[persimmon]

That's right. Thanks for providing all the quotes. So my thing is, if the store clerk remembered seeing a filthy bawling boy, why did SB say the clerk can't remember for sure whether they saw a child.... It doesn't make sense that the clerk would say they saw a filthy bawling boy, then change her story and say she didn't remember for sure if a child was there.

I always thought he answered that way because they were two different incidents. The filthy child incident seemed to me to be something LE gathered in speaking to potential witnesses but it just kinda flopped and never went beyond JM discussing it in their first interview. I recall it mentioned somewhere else though along with the Walmart suspected sighting. I assumed both were ruled out by LE.

SBs comment about the clerk not remembering a child was in regards to them and not just a tip or sighting acquired from investigation. If that makes sense. If they fabricated the filthy child story then they are even crazier than I thought because Leadore only has so many store clerks and LE could easily check that out.

 

[persimmon]

Someone did ask yesterday on KIC's Facebook page what order the calls were made and the answer is negative, goes to timeline...

I find it odd as Klein did reveal GGP's call and listed the times calls were made, so why not which order? It can only be one or the other of 2:22pm or 2:26pm for GGP/VDK and both of those coming before JM's is already a bit odd to me.

I know lots of people have been discussibg the 911 calls and the order they were placed, but I am wondering what signifigance people assign to the subject? How do you think it plays into the events?
Thanks

 

[MBK]

in looking at the various interview snippets about the filthy bawling child, i'm not convinced there was ever a filthy bawling deorr at any store at any point during that trip.

Remember, the parents are known to le to be lying. We really can't take anything they say at face value. Unless the filthy bawling child at a store can be verified independently by some other witness or by surveillance video, i see no reason to believe that such a scenario ever existed.

i do wonder if there was a filthy bawling deorr at some point who upset his parents so badly that he ended up dead.

BBM. Yes.

 

[Dee10]

Bessie asked: "Um…and also, some people wondered because Isaac Reinwand in his interview with Nate Eaton said that he couldn’t answer any questions—that he was told not to answer any questions, and you know then Mr. Klein kind of disputed that so we have a question here, you know, Did you advise or instruct Isaac Reinwand not to talk to the media?"

SB answered: "No, in fact, you know from the get go, Isaac, you know it’s been included in our interviews and he chose at some point in time to contact an attorney, and I think that’s primarily due –he’s got a criminal record, and I think he’s had some issues in the past and so he felt like he’d been targeted in the past on other issues by law enforcement so I think he was trying to do the right thing and so he contacted an attorney."


*http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286501


The question was flat out asked. I don't know how els anyone could take that. SB said "No"


Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

I believe your BBM "assumption" was incorrect or at the very least not a fact. IR was still indeed talking & cooperating with LE in January, long after he hired a lawyer. Just because he has a lawyer doesn't necessarily mean he won't talk to LE. Klein has said IR has refused to talk to him, but there is no link I could find that IR is not cooperating with LE.

Bowerman and Lemhi County Chief Deputy Steve Penner were in Idaho Falls all weekend working with Bonneville County Sheriff detectives and FBI agents.


Bowerman says Kunz and Mitchell were interviewed along with Walton and Reinwand. Walton and Reinwand have not been cleared, but investigators are focusing on Kunz and Mitchell, Bowerman said.

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/0...ruthful-are-suspects-in-childs-disappearance/

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

I know lots of people have been discussibg the 911 calls and the order they were placed, but I am wondering what signifigance people assign to the subject? How do you think it plays into the events?
Thanks

To be honest probably not a lot except that if GGP's call was first then maybe the second and third were "forced" upon them and done in panic?

Possibly more significant is the fact that KIC now won't comment/elaborate? They say goes to timeline, but seem to forget they gave us the exact times....

 

[Beezneez]

I know lots of people have been discussibg the 911 calls and the order they were placed, but I am wondering what signifigance people assign to the subject? How do you think it plays into the events?
Thanks

I don't know what significance it holds. In my mind it is just something that is unnecessarily confusing. It should be fairly straightforward- from the recording released it would seem that JM was the first call and VDK was the second.
Where the third call from GGP, the order Klein stated on his fb page, or the content of the other two calls all fit into this is a mystery. Whether it is relevant, a miscommunication somewhere or there is some point of deception around the calls is where my interest is.
One thought I had is what if they didn't have their own phones? If I were camping & trying to get an emergency signal I would be using all phones available. It has occurred to me that GGP didn't call, but his phone was used to try? Of course JM doesn't sound like she is in some sort of blind panic & desperate, but who knows. It seems reasonable to me that JM might be trying from two different phones at the campsite, while VDK drove off. Especially if GGP had a different carrier or a newer phone. Just a thought that came with my coffee this morning.

 

[LookingForClues]

Or IR might have called from GGP's phone.

It was so much easier in the old days, when no one had cells, no one had the opportunity to use someone else's cell, etc., and we knew who was making a darn call! :thinking:

 

[TeaTime]

As far as we know, the store clerk never said she saw a filthy, bawling baby with a man who drove a black truck on Friday evening at around 6pm, it was just a rumor circulating around town that JM and VDK wanted to clear up as not being DeOrr and VDK because DeOrr was already missing and although VDK drives a black truck, he was with S&R until the wee hours of Saturday. Unless SB tells us that the clerk did in fact see such a duo, I will keep this information in the 'dismiss as unreliable' file. And, no I don't think the parents made up this story; it is something they heard and were probably asked about.

I do not understand all the interest in the 3 911 calls. Considering the fact that they were in a valley, it makes sense that everyone on the camping trip with a cell phone would try to contact 911. We know JM's call got through as did VDK's because we hear the dispatcher tell JM that he is on the other line. Klein gives us the order of the calls which we know is not correct because we can hear VDK's call come in while JM is on the phone, so I take his order of events and time of calls with a grain of salt. I wonder how he can even say this when it is more than likely that LE did not share the calls with him.

 

[persimmon]

I saw an interesting theory this morning that I never noticed before. It was speculated that perhaps the campers had spent Thursday night at a different campground and maybe that would account for search dogs failing to pick up a scent among other odd details of the initial investigation. This theory posited that whatever happened to DeOrr happened at the first campsite and that JM and VDK initiated tje move to a new site to leave evidence behind. This would explain their comment on the first interview about arriving Friday morning.

I don't really believe this is valid because I have a hard time believing four adults would all lie and risk their freedom for these parents. I just thought it was interesting enough to share.