ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #29

[alexwood]

Not to mention, why even go through the trouble of staging the disappearance of your child? Why not just go the legal adoption route with whoever you want to sell the child to and then have them pay you under the table? That's why the adoption theory never made any sense to me.

The shame involved in having to admit that you put your child up for adoption. Think of the many who would come forward, after it was a done deal, to say: "Why didn't you ask me, I am a blood relative? I would have taken him!"

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

Personally the adopted out for money theory falls at the first hurdle. Not even the dumbest would include an ill old man (Deorr's own grandfather) plus his friend they hardly knew in the conspiracy willingly.

Number 1 rule in the book of crime is involve as few people as possible (I've read!). Who knows with this case though. They seem to have outwitted the authorities so far.

 

[misty48]

Here are a few examples:
He brought in one of the most highly qualified HRD dogs in the country and conducted several searches including around the campground, the area surrounding the campground, and in areas around Leadore. Here's a link to another search done by Tracy Sargent and HRD dog Chance, and there's more information on this trainer and her dogs available if you want to google it.

http://www.news-reporter.com/news/2...several_gravesites_at_Kettle_Cre.html?print=1

He and his investigative team searched the parents, and grandparents residence as well.

He conducted additional interviews that bolstered and verified the evidence already obtained by LE that led them to name the parents Suspects.

He has brought more public attention to Deorr's case and has kept it there.

if anyone has anything else to add please feel free! :wave:

LE had already used both S&R dogs and cadaver dogS, so nothing new there.
LE had already searched the parents' house, so nothing new there.
LE already had statements from the 4 people at the site, not just the 2 who chose to co-operate with the PI's, so nothing new there.

BTW Tracy/Chance are not perfect, just as human searchers aren't perfect - see the defence case State v Stephen McDaniel https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/540762/mcdaniel-defense-motions-351-pages.txt.

ETA:- Why is there no record of Chance alerting at Stone Reservoir?


Is there any evidence via phone activity that VDK left the campsite area after returning from purchasing gas in Leadore? If not, what reason could there possibly be for purchasing gas at around 1pm & then making a 911 call at 2.30pm?

 

[desert-blue]

Happy to do it, Cover Me, and you are right. I do remember now that this was Vilt's theory early on -- and probably where I got the idea. I admit that I have not followed this case very closely at all.

The reason I think he was "adopted out" for money by the parent(s) is that first of all, I can't imagine anyone harming that little guy -- and certainly not his own parent(s)! I really don't think there was an accidental death. Secondly, I know that people who cannot have their own children, and are financially able, will look for a private adoption, even one with no paper trail involved. I also seem to recall that the parents were not flush with cash, and this would be a way to get some quickly. They certainly didn't waste any time splitting up and going their separate ways. Further J had children by another or other "unions", and apparently didn't have primary custody of them. DeOrr was yet another child. Being financially strapped, Vernal certainly wouldn't mind being relieved of having to pay child support. (I don't recall whether he had any children with someone else.) Finally, if little DeOrr was taken out of state to live his new life with adoptive parent(s), I really don't think he'd be recognized.

All of the above is just based on my personal opinion, speculation, and theory. I may even have confused the facts; there are so many of you who have closely followed this case. I have not. So, don't hesitate to correct me!

It doesn't appear that Jessica has paid off any of her judgments against her. She also apparently got evicted from her apartment. Seems like the money woes continue. Do you suppose the payments haven't started yet or are the parents just waiting until the dust settles to start spending? Wouldn't everyone (including investigators) be all over it if Jessica and Vernal (i.e. the suspects) at any point start making large purchases that are not in line with their incomes? Also, open adoption is perfectly legal. Why would they fake his disappearance and put themselves under a microscope for the rest of their lives? They could have combined a legal adoption with an illegal payment arrangement done in cash under the table and no one probably would have been the wiser. It certainly would not have drawn as much attention as pretending that your child mysteriously disappeared in the wilderness. Plus, wouldn't they have taken the time to carefully manufacture their stories so they matched and made sense? MOO.

 

[desert-blue]

The shame involved in having to admit that you put your child up for adoption. Think of the many who would come forward, after it was a done deal, to say: "Why didn't you ask me, I am a blood relative? I would have taken him!"

I think being a suspect in your child's disappearance would be far worse than any familial shame involved in giving your child up for adoption. Just my opinion...

 

[ZooSleuth]

The shame involved in having to admit that you put your child up for adoption. Think of the many who would come forward, after it was a done deal, to say: "Why didn't you ask me, I am a blood relative? I would have taken him!"

You're right that family members would say that stuff, but is the shame from family members so bad that you would rather risk being known as a person who killed their own child or covered up their death? It's not even close IMO.

EDIT: Missed the post from desert-blue saying the same thing before I posted this one.

 

[neesaki]

Happy to do it, Cover Me, and you are right. I do remember now that this was Vilt's theory early on -- and probably where I got the idea. I admit that I have not followed this case very closely at all.

The reason I think he was "adopted out" for money by the parent(s) is that first of all, I can't imagine anyone harming that little guy -- and certainly not his own parent(s)! I really don't think there was an accidental death. Secondly, I know that people who cannot have their own children, and are financially able, will look for a private adoption, even one with no paper trail involved. I also seem to recall that the parents were not flush with cash, and this would be a way to get some quickly. They certainly didn't waste any time splitting up and going their separate ways. Further J had children by another or other "unions", and apparently didn't have primary custody of them. DeOrr was yet another child. Being financially strapped, Vernal certainly wouldn't mind being relieved of having to pay child support. (I don't recall whether he had any children with someone else.) Finally, if little DeOrr was taken out of state to live his new life with adoptive parent(s), I really don't think he'd be recognized.

All of the above is just based on my personal opinion, speculation, and theory. I may even have confused the facts; there are so many of you who have closely followed this case. I have not. So, don't hesitate to correct me!

I agree there's a slim chance of this. If so, maybe out of country.

 

[ZooSleuth]

LE had already used both S&R dogs and cadaver dogS, so nothing new there.

Chance hit on areas that LE's cadavers did not. So ya, NEW cadaver hits to explore.

LE had already searched the parents' house, so nothing new there.

Nothing new except for the TOYS AND CLOTHING Klein found that was supposed to have gone missing with Deorr.

LE already had statements from the 4 people at the site, not just the 2 who chose to co-operate with the PI's, so nothing new there.

Klein got NEW statements that contradicted previous statements from the parents.

BTW Tracy/Chance are not perfect, just as human searchers aren't perfect - see the defence case State v Stephen McDaniel https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/540762/mcdaniel-defense-motions-351-pages.txt.

ETA:- Why is there no record of Chance alerting at Stone Reservoir?

Who said Chance was perfect? Cremains were dumped in Stone Reservoir a year before Chance was up there. Those cremains would have been completely flushed out by the time Chance was up there searching.

I fully expect the facts I laid out here will be ignored.

 

[neesaki]

LE had already used both S&R dogs and cadaver dogS, so nothing new there.LE had already searched the parents' house, so nothing new there.LE already had statements from the 4 people at the site, not just the 2 who chose to co-operate with the PI's, so nothing new there.BTW Tracy/Chance are not perfect, just as human searchers aren't perfect - see the defence case State v Stephen McDaniel https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/540762/mcdaniel-defense-motions-351-pages.txt.ETA: Why is there no record of Chance alerting at Stone Reservoir?Is there any evidence via phone activity that VDK left the campsite area after returning from purchasing gas in Leadore? If not, what reason could there possibly be for purchasing gas at around 1pm & then making a 911 call at 2.30pm?

It helps to be able to see the big picture though I understand it's a difficult thing for some.

-Klein was a new set of eyes on the case, this can not hurt, and can often be helpful. Even Sheriff B. stated it "can't hurt, it can only help". (paraphrase) So, Do you also disagree with LE in this case?

-Irregardless of the initial statements, additional interviews by others using different styles and techniques can often be beneficial in bringing out, and shedding light on additional information.

-How do you know they found nothing new in the search of the residences? Do you have a link to back that up?

-I agree, no humans are perfect, no dogs are perfect. That's nothing new. That said, Chance is technically more qualified than the initial dogs that were brought in. What do you mean by indicating that Chance should alert at Stone Reservoir ? Are you saying that's where Deorr's deceased body is ? Do you know something that needs to be reported to LE ? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you?

-Regarding the cell phone signals, etc., you might want to go back and read up on that, it's there in the media thread.

-Your point about VKD leaving, or not leaving, and then getting or not getting fuel makes no sense to me at all. Maybe try clarifying and being more specific if you think it's significant. TIA

 

[The Apparition]

I accept that some people may believe he never drove off in the truck, that's great, and they may be right, however just my opinion is he did drive off in the truck, although the timing is uncertain.
The purpose of the maps I posted was, I hoped, just to examine the terrain either side of the dirt road leading north east from the campsite,

I can work with what you are saying here. I also think he drove off possibly a couple of times "that" day. I do not believe it was to call 911 and I too am not certain of the timing of his drive(s). He made such a point of mentioning his truck and driving away during his alibi building interview that it's certain the truck and driving was involved somehow in the story and he wanted to preemptively explain away why he was driving around. I believe he drove off to burn evidence or perhaps stash it somewhere.

Speaking of Vernal I wonder where he is. He has really fallen off the map it seems like just yesterday when he looked into the camera stammered, stuttered and eventually spit out something like "I will find you son, daddy will find you", I wonder how his personal search is going.

 

[KatieLiz]

I can work with what you are saying here. I also think he drove off possibly a couple of times "that" day. I do not believe it was to call 911 and I too am not certain of the timing of his drive(s). He made such a point of mentioning his truck and driving away during his alibi building interview that it's certain the truck and driving was involved somehow in the story and he wanted to preemptively explain away why he was driving around. I believe he drove off to burn evidence or perhaps stash it somewhere.

Speaking of Vernal I wonder where he is. He has really fallen off the map it seems like just yesterday when he looked into the camera stammered, stuttered and eventually spit out something like "I will find you son, daddy will find you", I wonder how his personal search is going.

I was thinking the same thing about Vernal today trying decide if it was smarter for him to fly under the radar and lay low or if that makes him look more suspicious... I'm undecided. I feel like the only time we have really heard from him since very early this year would be the car accident he had on the one year anniversary... (crazy how karma works...)

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I was thinking the same thing about Vernal today trying decide if it was smarter for him to fly under the radar and lay low or if that makes him look more suspicious... I'm undecided. I feel like the only time we have really heard from him since very early this year would be the car accident he had on the one year anniversary... (crazy how karma works...)

In some way we (WSers) are repeatedly referred to the concept "vehicle". Can this really be a simple coincidence? The only one who isn't driving a car seems to be the only one who seems less suspect than the rest of the "club of 4". Really a coincidence? :thinking:

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I just don't know what's going on here any more.

For those of you who do NOT believe the popular theory that the parents were involved, what do you think happened to DeOrr?

 

[Onebest]

“We know that the parents aren’t telling the truth, and they know that we know that they’re lying,” Bowerman said. “I know that they know where the little boy is and what happened to him.”

http://idahostatejournal.com/member...cle_b4d359f2-0b13-55d2-9aec-178b359a5683.html

 

[CoverMeCagney]

“We know that the parents aren’t telling the truth, and they know that we know that they’re lying,” Bowerman said. “I know that they know where the little boy is and what happened to him.”

http://idahostatejournal.com/member...cle_b4d359f2-0b13-55d2-9aec-178b359a5683.html

Thank you for reposting this. I think it's THE most damning statement of them all and the one that made many of us fall off any fences we were teetering on.

 

[desert-blue]

In some way we (WSers) are repeatedly referred to the concept "vehicle". Can this really be a simple coincidence? The only one who isn't driving a car seems to be the only one who seems less suspect than the rest of the "club of 4". Really a coincidence? :thinking:

Exactly. IR would have had no way to pull this off without a vehicle. He could be an accessory but no way did he disappear DeOrr on his own. I have wavered so much on his role, but I am (currently) of the opinion that DeOrr was deceased prior to the visit to the Silver Dollar on Thursday evening (I also don't believe the two vehicles traveled from Idaho Falls to Leadore together). I think Thursday night was used to dispose of his body and I don't feel IR was involved in that at all. I think he was passed out in his tent for the night. Friday was used to dispose of evidence and then the 911 call was made. MOO.

 

[redheart]

“We know that the parents aren’t telling the truth, and they know that we know that they’re lying,” Bowerman said. “I know that they know where the little boy is and what happened to him.”

http://idahostatejournal.com/member...cle_b4d359f2-0b13-55d2-9aec-178b359a5683.html

Thank you for reposting this. I think it's THE most damning statement of them all and the one that made many of us fall off any fences we were teetering on.

Yes. And it's important to note that Sheriff Bowerman was not quick to say this about the parents. He gave them the benefit of the doubt for a very long time and seems to be a thoughtful, deliberate man.

 

[jnblsm]

I just don't know what's going on here any more.

For those of you who do NOT believe the popular theory that the parents were involved, what do you think happened to DeOrr?

And if anyone answers, "Mountain Lions", I'll puke...[emoji86]

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[turtlefur]

I just don't know what's going on here any more.

For those of you who do NOT believe the popular theory that the parents were involved, what do you think happened to DeOrr?

Well, it's not that I don't believe the parents were involved, it's that I don't *think* I believe that they killed him away from the campsite and used the camping trip as a cover up. I think it's possible they were involved in his death, in an accidental way.

Not sure if you were talking to me !!


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[misty48]

Exactly. IR would have had no way to pull this off without a vehicle. He could be an accessory but no way did he disappear DeOrr on his own. I have wavered so much on his role, but I am (currently) of the opinion that DeOrr was deceased prior to the visit to the Silver Dollar on Thursday evening (I also don't believe the two vehicles traveled from Idaho Falls to Leadore together). I think Thursday night was used to dispose of his body and I don't feel IR was involved in that at all. I think he was passed out in his tent for the night. Friday was used to dispose of evidence and then the 911 call was made. MOO.

All you need is a bin bag & a spade. Cadaver dogs cannot even detect odour through a waxed brown paper bag.