ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #6

[JadeSLeuth]

If we trust the skills and the findings of the searchers and the dogs, DeOrr would have to have left/been removed from the area in a manner which left no physical trail and no scent. What manner could this be?

 

[Dee10]

The Sheriff seemed to rule out he was lost, because he would have been found in one day.
unlikely animal attack, no traces, checked den, etc.
unikely abduction, no other campers, vehicles heard
unlikely drowning, repeated searches, no surfacing

What does that leave, after the FBI arrived? I can only think of foul play or accidental death. Is there another possibility, if the above are 'improbable'?

ETA - LE has not ruled out foul play.

 

[ILOKAL]

I am glad you mentioned that tall grass. I too saw it and thought 'how could they find a small child there'? With that said they searched with men, dogs, horses, helicoptors and I believe drones.

I think they would have spotted something. I have always been concerned that he might not have been spotted because of the camo sweatshirt he was wearing. Would fit right into the terraine.

One thing I hope camping parents have learned is please, please dress your young children in bright colors if you take them camping.

I think the tall grass is sagebrush. Not sure though.

 

[KYPastTracker]

If a mountain lion walked right up to the campsite, would they see his tracks when they began searching? Woulds the scent dogs have picked up the trail? Would the cadaver dogs have found his scent nearby where they left his scattered remains?

A lion could have snuck right up to the edge of the campsite judging from the grass/vegetation I have seen on the video of the site. It is possible no one would have seen him until it was too late. Also would depend on the position or location of Little DeOrr and GGPa and IR, which we don't know. For instance, was GGPa standing or sitting at the time? JMO.

 

[jmcgladr]

I think the tall grass is sagebrush. Not sure though.

I thought so too, and in a link someone posted, a SAR source described the terrain as "timber and sagebrush."

 

[JadeSLeuth]

The Sheriff seemed to rule out he was lost, because he would have been found in one day.
unlikely animal attack, no traces, checked den, etc.
unikely abduction, no other campers, vehicles heard
unlikely drowning, repeated searches, no surfacing

What does that leave, after the FBI arrived? I can only think of foul play or accidental death. Is there another possibility, if the above are 'improbable'?

Placed or crawled into something, other than a vehicle? Placed or crawled into something which was then transported out of the area inside a vehicle?

 

[Trident]

If we trust the skills and the findings of the searchers and the dogs, DeOrr would have to have left/been removed from the area in a manner which left no physical trail and no scent. What manner could this be?

I have a great deal of faith and thanks for SAR, but they aren't perfect. There have been many cases where someone was found deceased in an area searched more than once, in a different direction than the search (uphill instead of down), and outside the search parameters. SAR are only human beings and and dogs, and human beings and dogs are not perfect.

If Deorr was taken away in a car, I don't believe there would be much of a scent because cars, trucks, campers, etc were in and out of the campground. While a dog can often track a person to a road, usually the scent stops there. I only know of one case where a dog (bloodhound) tracked the car that took the victim. That dog tracked for 12 miles. They did find the girl, but at the moment I don't remember her name and I believe she was deceased.

A cat can bound/jump great distances, and be gone in a flash with a child in it's mouth. The dogs may not have come across the cat's scent, if that's what happened, or they may have refused to follow it for one reason or another. Like I stated in a previous post, neither dogs nor people are perfect.

:cow:

 

[ILOKAL]

Well, I've studied/researched other cases such as Martin, Atadero, Laura Bradbury, and others. In fact, I have books on many of these and other cases - I buy them because I'm interested in learning more. I've read all of Paulide's "Missing 411" books, except for the last one. I'll but that in the near future, and often I knew more about the case than he did. I've read all the information you posted here, plus a lot of my own. I've been studying animal attacks for years.

The fact is, there is "hink" in almost every case I've read, but the one thing I've learned throughout the years, sleuthing/reading here, etc., is NOT to get tunnel vision. We've all seen what happens when LE clamps onto the idea of a perp and won't let go. Sometimes the results aren't pretty. Therefore, I have to keep an open mind in this case, even though I do lean toward the cougar.

Sometimes there is more than one way to skin a cat, and I mean no pun, LOL.

My opinion only

It really bothers me when, no matter what the circumstances, the parents are blamed in the majority of cases even when there is absolutely no evidence to indicate their involvement nor any reason to even believe they WERE involved. It just seems, these days, many have a penchant to blame the parents and refuse to listen to or learn about scenarios that really DO fit the case. Having said that, I have kept an open mind as to two alternate possibilities which are wandering off and falling asleep or being injured, and drowning. Common sense has always been my strong suit and I've applied it to this case. With a mountain lion as abductor/killer, no twists or turns or manipulation is needed. This case presents itself ideally for the greatest probability that a mountain lion is the predator. No tunnel vision.

 

[haven71]

Wow, so many possibilities however unlikely. I sure hope this little guy is found soon, as everyone here does.

Taken by a mountain lion? I discounted that theory early on. But it was just explained that dogs are afraid of and won't follow the track. If this is true, this lends credence to this theory. Gone without a trace, or gone without a tracker?

Drowning in the creek or reservoir. I don't think so, as they say they have raked through there and even searched holes. No, his body didn't come to the surface within the expected amount of time...3 weeks. But it's possible, but probably unlikely, that he is caught up in some ratty logs or branches.

Abduction? I REALLY don't think so. No scent. No information about anyone else camping in the immediate area either.

After seeing IR's interview, I have a pit in my stomach wondering if drug use had anything to do with this. I find it hard to believe (my opinion of course) that the parents didn't know IR before they went camping. If I remember correctly, they went to GGP's favorite camping spot. How long has it been his favorite spot? JM and Dad Deorr seem like the outdoorsy type (camo clothing, ATV). If GGP loves camping so much, how often did he camp, and how often did JM and Big Deorr camp with him? The parents said they were at the site for the first time. Yet it seems, knowing GGPs physical and mental deficiencies, they would go with him sometimes. GGP and IR's relationship doesn't make sense to me either. GGP is about twice the age of IR. <modsnip> It's a little unusual, to me, that a guy of that age likes to hang out with a senior citizen whose health and mind are failing. And after the seeing the interview with IR, I suspect his mind was altered and that it probably often is. Wouldn't he be camping or hanging out with people his own age, reputable or not? Is he more of a caretaker of GGP? How often do IR and GGP spend time together? The whole problem with this is there is not a trace of Deorr, so I don't think neglect, even if there was any drug use among any of the 4 adults, plays a part in his disappearance. What I have thought since the beginning is that he probably was never at the campsite to begin with. Again, substance abuse? What if there was a drug deal gone wrong and they knew who had him or who has him still, using him as a pawn. I don't think it's too farfetched, nothing really is at this point.

Another big question I have is, ASIDE from family and IR, WHO PHYSICALLY SAW DEORR last and when? It is possible that Deorr was missing for a number of days, for all we know.

Sorry I'm regurgitating much of what has already said, but as so many have pointed out, there is so little to go on. Who knows what is happening behind the scenes, or if it ever will be solved.

 

[KYPastTracker]

Those of you who know more about mountain lions - Could a lion travel with his prey in his jaws through the tree tops and leave no scent? I am wondering if mountain lions climb into pine trees or only the types of trees that appeared to be along the creek. Sorry I don't know the term for those kind of trees - deciduous (sp?)?

 

[KYPastTracker]

Where I live in south central Kentucky, near Mammoth Cave, there aren't suppose to be any mountain lions. Several people have recently reported spotting them near and in the National Park near my home. But the authorities deny that they are here. My nephew and his wife saw one last year while driving north on the parkway. He isn't the type to "see" things so I believe him. After reading about Lion attacks on here, I am now not too eager to go walking in the Park any more. I truly hope this was not the cause of DeOrr's disappearance!

 

[JadeSLeuth]

I have a great deal of faith and thanks for SAR, but they aren't perfect. There have been many cases where someone was found deceased in an area searched more than once, in a different direction than the search (uphill instead of down), and outside the search parameters. SAR are only human beings and and dogs, and human beings and dogs are not perfect.

If Deorr was taken away in a car, I don't believe there would be much of a scent because cars, trucks, campers, etc were in and out of the campground. While a dog can often track a person to a road, usually the scent stops there. I only know of one case where a dog (bloodhound) tracked the car that took the victim. That dog tracked for 12 miles. They did find the girl, but at the moment I don't remember her name and I believe she was deceased.

A cat can bound/jump great distances, and be gone in a flash with a child in it's mouth. The dogs may not have come across the cat's scent, if that's what happened, or they may have refused to follow it for one reason or another. Like I stated in a previous post, neither dogs nor people are perfect.

:cow:

Good post, thank you. I am musing about the dogs and the scent of a mountain lion... If DeOrr was snatched up by the cat - there would most likely be a drop or more of blood? Would the dog - while potentially resistant to following the cat's trail - not signal at the drop(s) of blood? Or, would the dog return to the cat's trail perhaps later on, knowing that the cat is no longer nearby? I can't rule out a mountain lion as what happened here although like mostly everyone else, I can't fully commit to it.

 

[Dee10]

I have never seen a case quite like this, in respect to the thoroughness in the diligence of searching, then discounting things. I think LE has done a remarkable job so far & I see no tunnel vision just a progression of trying to find DeOrre.

 

[KYPastTracker]

I was interested in the Missing 411 discussion that was in one of the earlier threads regarding the many missing persons from national parks and forests. I have lived within ten miles of Mammoth Cave National Park in Kentucky for going on 25 years, and as far as I am aware, there have been no missing persons from this one during that time. I hope that there never will be!

As others have said, I don't want to have tunnel vision in regard to this case, so I am keeping an open mind. We have so few facts!

 

[jmcgladr]

Those of you who know more about mountain lions - Could a lion travel with his prey in his jaws through the tree tops and leave no scent? I am wondering if mountain lions climb into pine trees or only the types of trees that appeared to be along the creek. Sorry I don't know the term for those kind of trees - deciduous (sp?)?

Mountain lions travel on the ground, not through the treetops. They certainly can climb trees when necessary, but that is not their preferred way to travel. They don't sleep in trees either, they're different than jaguars etc. They move very quickly and quietly along the ground.

 

[Hoosier952]

Where I live in south central Kentucky, near Mammoth Cave, there aren't suppose to be any mountain lions. Several people have recently reported spotting them near and in the National Park near my home. But the authorities deny that they are here. My nephew and his wife saw one last year while driving north on the parkway. He isn't the type to "see" things so I believe him. After reading about Lion attacks on here, I am now not too eager to go walking in the Park any more. I truly hope this was not the cause of DeOrr's disappearance!

There are showing up in Indiana as well. DNR finally posted something on the website about the spottings. They show up on trail cameras a few times a year. We had one spotted just 15 minutes north of us. It's definitely rural here, but we are far more densely populated than KY. Our terrain seems less lion friendly than KY as well. I don't see why KY wouldn't have them roaming around!

Our local DNR is still claiming we don't have rattlesnakes in our area. Let's just say I wear snake boots when hunting and hiking, because pictures tell me otherwise!

 

[concernedmother]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_cougar_attacks_in_North_America

Disappeared while hiking with a group of his father's friends on the Big South Trail in Poudre Canyon, west of Fort Collins, Colorado.[15] In June 2003, his clothing was discovered, 500 feet (150 m) up a cliff above the trail where he vanished, by hikers.[16] Jaryd's fragmentary human remains were found with the clothing.[17] A wildlife biologist found the damage to the clothing was consistent with mountain lion predation.[18]

 

[CarolynV]

Okay, I have read everything and I have a question. Is there a gate at the entrance with a park ranger checking for stickers or collecting camp fees that could say they did or did not see Little Deorr?

 

[jmcgladr]

Okay, I have read everything and I have a question. Is there a gate at the entrance with a park ranger checking for stickers or collecting camp fees that could say they did or did not see Little Deorr?

It was an undeveloped, primitive campsite and free, so camping fees didn't apply. I don't believe there would have been a gate entrance either.

 

[KYPastTracker]

Mountain lions travel on the ground, not through the treetops. They certainly can climb trees when necessary, but that is not their preferred way to travel. They don't sleep in trees either, they're different than jaguars etc. They move very quickly and quietly along the ground.

Thank you for your info! So it seems that it would be more likely that one would sneak up in the tall grass than drop down from a tree.
When my nephews visited a native tribe in the Amazon, they weren't allowed to go out in the jungle alone as they were told a panther might drop on them from behind from a tree and kill them before they could do anything. But with a group, there was much less chance of this occurring. Needless to say, my sister and I did not rest easy until they came home!