ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #9

[ILOKAL]

Animals usually leave some signs that they were around. If there weren't any recent signs in the area of the campground, that would make it less likely they were there when Deorr was.

A mountain lion would have taken cover to stalk, probably on the forest floor. With a sudden leap (up to 40'), precise strike, and sudden escape, I doubt it would leave any noticeable signs near the campsite.

 

[Jules71]

In the interview with Sheriff Bowerman he indicated two tracking dogs were used right away and given DeOrr's scent.

If I remember correctly, the dogs tracked DeOrr to the reservoir --even before cremains were dumped. I believe it was stated the dogs would track to the reservoir and then would return to camp.

I'd like to know which way the dogs went from camp to the reservoir. I wonder if they crossed the creek. If they did, I would think little DeOrr would have to have help crossing the creek. If I remember right, it's steep on the camp side of the creek. On the other side of the creek it would run parallel with road 172b.

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[kammiemc]

Animals usually leave some signs that they were around. If there weren't any recent signs in the area of the campground, that would make it less likely they were there when Deorr was.

Another good point. Prints. Scat. Carcasses. The sheriff probably knows all this stuff like the back of his hand. Add to that the dogs not picking up a scent and no animals picked up on infrared camera and those are some pretty solid reasons to conclude that animal abduction is unlikely. Thanks!

 

[carbuff]

A mountain lion would have taken cover to stalk, probably on the forest floor. With a sudden leap (up to 40'), precise strike, and sudden escape, I doubt it would leave any noticeable signs near the campsite.

It might not have left signs at the immediate site of the strike, but there likely would have been things like droppings, urine markings, and other cat territorial behavior in the vicinity. Maybe not right at the campsite but in the general area.

Possibly not, but with all the other things that aren't there, it makes it less likely.

 

[ILOKAL]

Surely that would then work for the lurking human predator as well and/or Bigfoot.

 

[kammiemc]

In the interview with Sheriff Bowerman he indicated two tracking dogs were used right away and given DeOrr's scent.

If I remember correctly, the dogs tracked DeOrr to the reservoir --even before cremains were dumped. I believe it was stated the dogs would track to the reservoir and then would return to camp.

I'd like to know which way the dogs went from camp to the reservoir. I wonder if they crossed the creek. If they did, I would think little DeOrr would have to have help crossing the creek. If I remember right, it's steep on the camp side of the creek. On the other side of the creek it would run parallel with road 172b.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

I believe that the sheriff said that the dogs did NOT go down to the creek.

 

[ILOKAL]

.

Infra red heat sensing cameras in a state of the art helicopter was used in the search for DeOrr

Those cameras also pick up every animal in the forest

They only saw one old male wolf and it was not close to the camping area.

.

Arnie, how large of an area did it cover, if you know?

 

[ILOKAL]

Thanks, that just occurred to me as well after reading ILOKAL's post.

I did include phone logs but not computers. Thanks carbuff and neesaki.

 

[ILOKAL]

It might not have left signs at the immediate site of the strike, but there likely would have been things like droppings, urine markings, and other cat territorial behavior in the vicinity. Maybe not right at the campsite but in the general area.

Possibly not, but with all the other things that aren't there, it makes it less likely.

And . . . . It ALL depends on what the searchers were looking for at the time.

 

[ClaireNC]

More hunting statistics. There were 522 mountain lions harvested in 2012 in all of Idaho. The highest harvest numbers are up in the panhandle. http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/ifwis/huntplanner/stats.aspx?season=general&game=lion&yr=2012#lion

 

[kammiemc]

More hunting statistics. There were 522 mountain lions harvested in 2012 in all of Idaho. The highest harvest numbers are up in the panhandle. http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/ifwis/huntplanner/stats.aspx?season=general&game=lion&yr=2012#lion

Does this mean that there are so many mountain lions for that amount to be harvested that a mountain lion scenario is MORE possible, or does it mean that so many have been harvested that few are left, making it LESS possible?

Although it is seeming less and less likely, an animal scenario would be a better case scenario than foul play for DeOrr's loved ones. I guess I'm just holding onto a shred of hope for that direction. But after hearing the good points here tonight, I can see why the sheriff is leaning in a different direction.

 

[ILOKAL]

The helicopter would eliminate any human predator also. We know the sheriff doesn't believe little Deorr was abducted by anyone or anything . . . . But he can't rule anything out either.

 

[rkf]

There wouldn't necessarily be a scent, even if the dogs WERE infallible. At 28 lbs the lion could have easily carried him. If a lion can grab a dog and carry it over a 12 ft fence, I don't think this scenario is at all unreasonable to consider. Of course, that's not to say the lion might also have grabbed and dragged. I don't think his boots would have fallen off in such a case.

But wouldn't he have left a scent at the campground, just having been there since the night before? Unless he never got out of the truck, I'd think a two year-old, whose whole body is close to the ground, would leave a trail of skin rafts behind him. That dogs couldn't find a scent within hours of his disappearance makes me think it's less likely he was attacked by a mountain lion, only because it makes it seem less likely that he was at the campsite at all. JMO

 

[Onebest]

.

Infra red heat sensing cameras in a state of the art helicopter was used in the search for DeOrr

Those cameras also pick up every animal in the forest

They only saw one old male wolf and it was not close to the camping area.

.

Arnie, This statement is confusing to me....Sheriff said in his last interview with Nate that there were bears and wolves running through the campground while they were searching...Where did you read Infra red only saw one old male wolf? this doesn't match up.

 

[rkf]

Mountain lions will use vacated wolf dens as daytime resting places.

Wonder if LE found lion scat in or near the old wolf dens. That would be interesting!

 

[Paulas88]

I agree ClaireNC.

I exchanged emails with "Miracles for Little Man." I'm not sure how much I am allowed to share on WS, so consider everything below hypothetical and speculative.

Hypothetical Internet Store: "I am restricted on what I am able to discuss with you as the current case involving Deorr Kunz Jr. is an active and ongoing investigation. What I can say is I am a family friend and am active in pusuing (sic) all available methods to help this family in need. I have started the Miracle For Little Man site in an attempt to raise money for the family to have available for different avenues they would like to pursue to aid in finding their son. I have donated my own time and my own money towards all associated expenses with everything you see on the website. Unfortunatly (sic) I am unable to comment on if the money will go towards searching near the campsite, across the country, etc. What I can say is the money raised will go towards additional resources the family would like to employ to furthur (sic) their efforts. ALL of the proceeds at this time go to the family 100%. I am absorbing ALL of the expenses at this time, as time goes on and if it becomes a financial burden for me to continue to do that I will readjust my strategy. I cannot comment on any futher (sic) action the family is taking at this time."

Asked about 501(c)3 status and tax-deductible donations:

Hypothetical Internet Store: "I am not interested in receiving donations from "large donors" if they will look at their contribution as an investment and must have answers as to the status of the family and the investigation. The site is intended to target an audience of people who would just like to help and will not expect anything in return."

RKF: I wrote back: "Thank you for your thoughtful response.

Unfortunately, your explanation of who and what the money will go to is very vague. I have no reason to doubt your sincerity, but without providing basic information about the fundraiser, it will be difficult for a larger audience to trust that their money is going to help find DeOrr. If the main goal is to spread awareness, reaching beyond immediate friends and family is vital. One of the problems with this case from the beginning has been the secrecy surrounding DeOrr’s disappearance. The lack of information from the family and law enforcement has led to suspicion, certainly unfounded. It's not clear what you are trying to raise awareness of - DeOrr’s abduction, DeOrr being lost in the forest or missing children in general. I hate to see anyone waste their energies when it could be used more efficiently to meet an organization’s goal. By avoiding transparency, you are alienating a lot of people who want to help find DeOrr, but expect some accountability for the money they donate.

Good luck.. I hope DeOrr is found soon."

I didn't expect a response, but:

Hypothetical Internet Store: "Unfortunately, due to the specific characteristics of this case we are restricted to the information we are permitted to disclose. I understand people would like exact accountability for their hard earned money, however this case has certain restrictions unlike other fundraisers you may have been involved with. While we may be alienating a lot of people who would like to help we have also attracted attention from all over the country, and in fact all over the world who have offered to reach out and help with this effort. The only goal we have as an organization is to bring Little Deorr home with his family, we asses no monetary value or strive to meet any financial goal compared to having Little Deorr back home with his family, like I previously stated, the only mission we have as an organization is to bring Little Deorr home from wherever he may be. Unfortunately additional resources require additional money. Some people might feel uneasy in not knowing exactly where every penny may be spent, and some people (like me) could care less as long as I know it is going to somebody who needs it, and some people will think they are "privy" to certain information simply because they may have made a monetary contribution. Unfortunately our hands are tied in this matter and there is only limited actions we can conduct. Thank you for your time and we welcome any help you may have to offer after now knowing the specifics of this particular campaign, as we simply have to rely on people of good faith wanting to help without any recourse."

I sincerely hope these are well-meaning people who haven't thought through exactly what they're trying to do. I am suspicious that they won't/can't define their goal - what they're trying to raise awareness of, how money will help them do that, who exactly the money is going to and if it will be used to search around the campsite or across the country. That last part ought to be straight forward. If the family thinks he's been kidnapped, they don't need to spend money searching the campground. If they think he just wandered off, they don't need people in other parts of the country looking for him.

This was awesome rkf, you're the rock star of sleuthing

 

[rkf]

Thanks, that just occurred to me as well after reading ILOKAL's post.

And anything found when homes and cars were searched.

NE: "The family says their vehicles and cars were searched, which it sounds like any case that would be standard operating procedure."

Sheriff: "You know, even though we searched them that night, you know, you always second guess - did we miss something? Could he have been in another compartment? Did we not search everything? So, everything's been searched at least a couple times, if not more."

[video=youtube;FV-h82eVQ1M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-h82eVQ1M[/video] at 7:28

 

[1&2&3]

To rkf: The thanks button was inadequate. Thank you very much for going the extra mile in trying to find out what this fundraiser is truly about.

To me, it is a lot of fancy words that are as clear as mud. That is JMO.

 

[kammiemc]

Arnie, This statement is confusing to me....Sheriff said in his last interview with Nate that there were bears and wolves running through the campground while they were searching...Where did you read Infra red only saw one old male wolf? this doesn't match up.

Another question for consideration: Would the use of infrared cameras in the search eliminate the possibility of a human abductor picking up DeOrr and driving away from the campsite before LE arrived? (I'm thinking not.)
Would it eliminate any involvement of any and all of the persons of interest? Again, I'm guessing not, since a person could have also driven away with DeOrr and returned to the campsite before LE arrived. But, if someone WALKED away with DeOrr, would that person or DeOrr surely be spotted by the infrared camera hours later? Or could have that person walked back to the campsite before the arrival of LE?
I'm just trying to eliminate some variables.

 

[kammiemc]

And anything found when homes and cars were searched.

NE: "The family says their vehicles and cars were searched, which it sounds like any case that would be standard operating procedure."

Sheriff: "You know, even though we searched them that night, you know, you always second guess - did we miss something? Could he have been in another compartment? Did we not search everything? So, everything's been searched at least a couple times, if not more."

[video=youtube;FV-h82eVQ1M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-h82eVQ1M[/video] at 7:28

The physical evidence that was passed to FBI, for sure!