ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #9

[rkf]

Wow rfk, Thanks you for reaching out and trying to find out what that site is all about. I had a lot of the same questions running through my head and really doubted their intentions. Now I doubt them even more. The owners names and telephone numbers are on the website. The owners initials are DB and KB and they are on the Help Find Deorr Kunz FB page. DB posted a link to the "Miracle" website yesterday and said that he is friends with Deorr and they talk often. He also said there are a lot of things going on behind the scenes that he is not able to mention in a public forum.

I am very highly suspicious of their intentions. I wonder if they really know the parents or if their "friendship" is just since little Deorr went missing. I wonder how much of the donations are going to the couple that is running the fundraiser? I know there are very strict rules about being a true non-profit. Are there rules about things like this? Is what they are doing illegal? It certainly sounds unethical.

It takes quite a while to set up a 501(c)3. There's a lot of paperwork and a lawyer should be hired to make sure everything is in order IMO. I checked the national non-profit database (which includes other 501s, not just (c)3s) and "miracles for little man" is not listed. I also think if they were a legitimate non-profit, she would have said so in her email. I don't think what they are doing is illegal, but it is definitely unethical. They may not even be doing it on purpose, just don't know any better. This site has no accountability. We have no way of knowing where the money is going. None. We are just supposed to trust them - people we've never met who may not even know DeOrr's family. I happen to believe they know them through SM and may be turning over any money accumulated. Non-profit does not mean "no expenses". Legitimate nonprofits pay their employees and expenses (such as shipping and "gifts" for certain donor levels, etc.) That's not a bad thing. Unless the person running the organization is independently wealthy, a charity can't stay "in business" without paying for the people/things that keep it going. A huge percentage of new non-profits don't last five years, many don't make it to the two-year mark. So if the answer was "I'm donating my time, but taking out the cost of the tea candle, 3x5 photo, plastic frame, rubber bracelet and printing the NCMEC ID kit that you can download for free on their site" that would have made more sense to me. "I am absorbing ALL of the expenses at this time, as time goes on and if it becomes a financial burden for me to continue to do that I will readjust my strategy." makes me feel more uncomfortable, because someone in her position could do everything for free now, but in a month decide she deserves 90% of the money collected. There is no oversight or accountability to donors. This is the internet equivalent of someone standing on the street corner begging for change or "offering" to wash your window at a stoplight. You have no idea if the person on the street is going to use your money to buy a meal or shoot up. And the only thing you get for giving to them is a moment of altruistic satisfaction or a smudged windshield. JMO

I could go on all night about this, but just realized I have veered way off topic. Sorry everyone!

 

[1&2&3]

What are you considering the campsite? It seems to me when Deorr's scent was tracked from the campsite to the reservoir and back to the campsite that doesn't limit his movement to the reservoir (to a trail or path) nor does it limit his movement at the campsite (to a small place where he stood).

Thanks for asking. I consider the campsite to be the general area that everything was around.
The vehicles, tent in one area, the campfire away from this but still in same area. The best description would be a circle being the campsite area. Anything outside of that area, would be a way that Deorr may have toddled out of. I can't give you an estimate of footage as I am not good at estimating. It would be a good size circle, but not large enough that Deorr would be too far away from me to run to grab him up quickly. I don't let little ones far away from me. Better to be safe than sorry in my opinion. Hope that helps.

 

[Onebest]

A few things in this dog search do not pass the sniff test (no pun intended).

We now know the family arrived on Thursday night. For the sake of argument, let's say Deorr did not get out and walk around upon arriving at 9:30 PM as it was pitch dark. Friday morning Deorr was most likely up bright and early, or by 7:00 AM. He and one of the parents, if not both, got out of the truck and went walking around.

Why did the dogs only find his scent from the campsite to the reservoir? Why did the dogs not sniff around in the area where everyone was camped? His scent had to be in more than just that one path to the reservoir. I doubt he was carried all morning. We have had WS say on here that even if carried, a dog may still pick up the scent. That little 2 year old did not stand still all morning, I can guarantee that!

This is a major red flag to me. If left with GGF at the campfire, Deorr's scent should be in that area too.

We know they got there on Thursday but I personally am STILL confused about exactly when and how they got to the campfire location where little Deoor went missing. If he was up and walking around the campfire location all morning then he could have walked all over the place but you would think his parents would know he walked to the reservoir and told the Sheriff! If they spent the night at another spot, had just gotten to the campfire location with the baby, went to do a little exploring and thats when the baby vanished then the dogs might have had a chance to do a clean trail. JMO.

 

[rkf]

The original, created by the PI is on the RIGHT.

The one you created is on the LEFT.

The RIGHT one is not professionally done. If I had hired the PI and this was the poster he created, my hinky meter would go up in a flash. As well as my temper!

The one on the LEFT is neat, gives the important information, easy to read. You did this one, this is the type of work you have shown us you do. Thank you.

I didn't post these to fish for compliments (although you are very kind). In fact, I would have done the poster differently if I had access to all info/any photos. Like for example, how about saying where he went missing... How about all photos should be recent since babies change so fast... I stayed within the parameters of the original.

Anyway, the reason I posted this was to show how AWFUL the original is. Who would put that out? I told a friend that it looked like someone cut out letters from a newspaper to make a ransom note. WTH?! It only takes minutes to create a poster. There are templates available on various "missing" websites, including NCMEC. There's no excuse for this type of shoddy work. I can only imagine how his investigation is going. I sure hope DK and JM are not paying him. JMO

 

[Onebest]

I've heard two different stories and I hope someone has good links.

The first, seems to be the same as what the Sheriff said - the dogs followed a scent trail from the campsite to the reservoir and back. The second story I heard was that the dogs walked to the reservoir and back, but never caught DeOrr's scent. I thought scent dogs were off-leash, but the latter story seems to imply that either the handlers walked them up the path to the reservoir or walked with them, guiding them toward the reservoir. If they never caught DeOrr's scent and humans weren't walking them to the reservoir and back, why would the dogs go up that way on their own? Hoping a K9 person can help here.

JMO since I don't have links.

ETA: Actually more than two stories. Those above were just about the tracking dogs. Thinking about the cadaver dogs that were thrown off by the cremains... Finding decomposition and cremains are two different skill sets. It's my understanding from talking with a SAR K9 expert that properly trained forensic scent dogs would not be thrown of by cremains if they were hunting for decomp. I don't think it entered anyone's mind that they should search for DeOrr's cremains, so the dogs would have been looking (scenting) for decomposing human remains. Cremains do not smell the same, and I believe cadaver dogs who are trained for cremains are taught to differentiate. I still think it's hinky that the cadaver dogs' hit at the reservoir was dismissed because of the cremain dumping. I can see how a defense attorney might introduce reasonable doubt with the cremains, but I find it hard to believe that a cadaver dog would mistake cremains for decomp. A body left on the ground for a period of time (not sure exactly how long - might depend on how long the person has been dead) would leave evidence of decomp that dogs could find, even if the body was moved before the dogs arrived. Hope one of our K9/SAR people can point out my mistakes in logic here.

Trailing Dogs, picking up scent trail on a long line held by handler usually 20-30 feet long.
Air Scent Dog, running free picking up scent on wind.
Cadaver Dogs, running free, trained on decomp, blood, bone, tissue, teeth, placenta, cremains and large source human remains and combinations of all of these. Not two different skills sets, a scent inventory so to speak for HRD. Human Remains Detection. They will hit on any or one of these sources but no, they can't tell you which part of the human body they found.

 

[rkf]

I suspect once the sheriff heard about the cremains and since the divers/searchers had not turned up anything in the reservoir, he dismissed the dogs alerting to the reservoir. Not good. But then again, DeOrr probably would have surfaced by now if he was there.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Probably. I'm a certified rescue diver. If that silt got kicked up, it would be hard to see inches in front of you. You could literally swim right past a body on the bottom. I know the reservoir is supposed to be crystal clear, but if he got buried in the muck, it would not be hard to miss a little body. But I also think his body would have surfaced by now, or at least some of it, even if it was weighted down.

 

[Onebest]

I suspect once the sheriff heard about the cremains and since the divers/searchers had not turned up anything in the reservoir, he dismissed the dogs alerting to the reservoir. Not good. But then again, DeOrr probably would have surfaced by now if he was there.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

He would have surfaced unless he was held down by something. Even surfacing he would have been very difficult to see and at this point animals of course are part of the picture. I am saddened, heartbroken to even write these words.

 

[rkf]

Trailing Dogs, picking up scent trail on a long line held by handler usually 20-30 feet long.
Air Scent Dog, running free picking up scent on wind.
Cadaver Dogs, running free, trained on decomp, blood, bone, tissue, teeth, placenta, cremains and large source human remains and combinations of all of these. Not two different skills sets, a scent inventory so to speak for HRD. Human Remains Detection. They will hit on any or one of these sources but no, they can't tell you which part of the human body they found.

Thank you! I was hoping you would chime in. So a forensic scent evidence dog will tell it's handler when it hits on any of the sources you mentioned for which it's been trained, but the handler will determine which it is when s/he sees what the dog has found? That makes perfect sense. So I'm assuming the cadaver dogs used were also trained on cremains. Thank you again for educating me! Last question - are some dogs trained on just one or a few types of evidence? For example, could a dog be trained just to identify cremains, or would that be underutilizing a dog's abilities? Can dogs be taught to differentiate between two types of evidence and behave differently depending on the type? TIA

 

[ILOKAL]

Thanks for asking. I consider the campsite to be the general area that everything was around.
The vehicles, tent in one area, the campfire away from this but still in same area. The best description would be a circle being the campsite area. Anything outside of that area, would be a way that Deorr may have toddled out of. I can't give you an estimate of footage as I am not good at estimating. It would be a good size circle, but not large enough that Deorr would be too far away from me to run to grab him up quickly. I don't let little ones far away from me. Better to be safe than sorry in my opinion. Hope that helps.

I too would think of the campsite that way. But the reason I ask is because that doesn't seem to be your thought in your post regarding Deorr's scent ONLY on a path to the reservoir and his scent NOT at the campsite (like by GGF and the campfire). IOW your description here doesn't seem to match the descriptions in your other post recording the SAR dogs. I hope I've explained this in a way you can understand. As I understand it, the dogs tracked Deorr from the "campsite" to the reservoir and back to the "campsite", which WOULD include his presence by GGF and the campfire area.

 

[Onebest]

Thank you! I was hoping you would chime in. So a forensic scent evidence dog will tell it's handler when it hits on any of the sources you mentioned for which it's been trained, but the handler will determine which it is when s/he sees what the dog has found? That makes perfect sense. So I'm assuming the cadaver dogs used were also trained on cremains. Thank you again for educating me! Last question - are some dogs trained on just one or a few types of evidence? For example, could a dog be trained just to identify cremains, or would that be underutilizing a dog's abilities? Can dogs be taught to differentiate between two types of evidence and behave differently depending on the type? TIA

You can train a dog to find just one thing like cremains but I agree with you, it would not be a highly viable resource. A dog might have different body language depending on the size of the source, location perhaps, He might show more enthusiasm or excitement sometimes but the dogs trained final response at source be it a bark, sit, down or recall you want to be consistent. That is how you trust your dog is in odor and he is communicating where it is to you.

JMO of course but I believe this is pretty standard.

 

[rkf]

You can train a dog to find just one thing like cremains but I agree with you, it would not be a highly viable resource. A dog might have different body language depending on the size of the source, location perhaps, He might show more enthusiasm or excitement sometimes but the dogs trained final response at source be it a bark, sit, down or recall you want to be consistent. That is how you trust your dog is in odor and he is communicating where it is to you.

JMO of course but I believe this is pretty standard.

Thank you.

 

[Lilibet]

Here is a thread devoted to SAR dog Q & A. I thought it might help. Perhaps additions could be made to that thread if answers are missing. :beagle:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-amp-Answers-Ask-the-Pros!&highlight=SAR+Dogs

ETA: Just reading a few posts it's clear that this is a complex field requiring a lot of training. Kudos to the dogs and their people!

 

[Arnie M]

.

Here is an infrared camera mounted on a helicopter. They can cost as much as a small house.

Nothing magical about them , all they do is sense differences in temperature and it shows up as white or black . I will post some examples in a minute

.

 

[Arnie M]

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Infrared (Thermal Image) of the Boston Bomber hiding in a boat

There is a tarp covering the boat but his body heat shows through.

.

 

[Arnie M]

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Thermal Image taken on a very dark night

Easy to tell it is two children in a wagon

One wearing a hoodie , one wearing a hat

Child on the right is wearing gloves and you can see heat radiating from around the wrists.

Both have bare legs which is out of place considering the winter jackets.


.

 

[Arnie M]

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This technology is best at night after the sun goes down because the surroundings are cool , and living things are warm .

Helicopter searchers using this technology are able to tell the difference between humans and animals , I have Wolf and Bear pictures but they are on another computer so here is a men and dog example.

The suspect radiates more heat because he has been running longer.

The tracking dog is obviously a hotdog.


.

 

[Mickshawn]

Excuse me if this has been covered...but isn't there another road that runs on the other side of the Reservoir? Just wondering...could DeOrr have walked to the Reservoir (leaving scent behind), then been transported by somebody via canoe to another location across the water and then out of the campground?

 

[wondering25]

The physical evidence that was passed to FBI, for sure!

And i am sure they are matching up time lines.. looking for inconsistencies, comparing interviews with people there and people who know them..doing background checks..Possibly interviewing ex spouses , checking to see if either parent is having an affair and where that person was at the time..unpaid debts and who was owed the money.. in other words.. did anyone have a motive to hurt the parents and/or the baby? JMO

 

[ClaireNC]

Excuse me if this has been covered...but isn't there another road that runs on the other side of the Reservoir? Just wondering...could DeOrr have walked to the Reservoir (leaving scent behind), then been transported by somebody via canoe to another location across the water and then out of the campground?

There is only one road that runs in and out of the campground. That road splits into three when it enters the campground. The middle road leads to the campsite the family was using. The one on the west side goes to the reservoir and stops there. The one on the east side goes past the reservoir and up to the upper part of the campground. The place where the road splits into three is in full view of where they were camping. So even if somebody grabbed little Deorr near the reservoir, they would need to drive past the family campsite to exit the campground.

You might need to zoom out a bit, but you can clearly see it on this map, which has the place the family was camping represented by an icon of a campfire. The blue and red dots show distances from the campfire.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z2VLvG6QAl8U.kPHWqpKuC66g&usp=sharing

 

[wondering25]

Wow rfk, Thanks you for reaching out and trying to find out what that site is all about. I had a lot of the same questions running through my head and really doubted their intentions. Now I doubt them even more. The owners names and telephone numbers are on the website. The owners initials are DB and KB and they are on the Help Find Deorr Kunz FB page. DB posted a link to the "Miracle" website yesterday and said that he is friends with Deorr and they talk often. He also said there are a lot of things going on behind the scenes that he is not able to mention in a public forum.

I am very highly suspicious of their intentions. I wonder if they really know the parents or if their "friendship" is just since little Deorr went missing. I wonder how much of the donations are going to the couple that is running the fundraiser? I know there are very strict rules about being a true non-profit. Are there rules about things like this? Is what they are doing illegal? It certainly sounds unethical.

None of these things are true non profits unless they are a 501C3. that is ok. All the go fund me pages, for example are considered "gifts". Read the Go fund me guidelines. These other sites are similar. In this HYPOTHETICAL CASE, bracelets, posters, kits etc are offered for SALE. You are paying a price for a product and the proceeds supposedly go to the needy family. This isn't illegal... UNLESS the family doesn't see a dime and it is just some opportunist trying to make a buck from someone's misfortune. This happened in the sandy hook case in Ct. The people running the site have said 100% of proceeds go to the family. Even true charities with 501c3 status often give just pennies on the dollar to the charity after administrative costs, fund raising costs, salaries etc. My point is, if this is legit then good for them.. if NOT then it should be reported..I agree it seems questionable. and what is their definition of "proceeds?" They have credit card options in place.. this isnt a mom and pop "let's do something nice" fundraiser, IMO. All this crowdfunding makes me nuts..JMO