ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow - Tylee Ryan - Tammy Daybell - Charles Vallow - *Arrests* #67

[Teche]

Gibb also wrote about Chad Daybell’s “troubling” test with a pendulum to tell if “people were light or dark.”

“He created a portal and would ask questions with a pendulum. I saw him twice with a gold-colored pointy pendulum with a string attached. The last time I saw Chad and Lori, he asked questions with the pendulum to see if people were light or dark. That was troubling to me. I thought, ‘This is how he gets his answers?’

Melanie Gibb Says Chad Daybell Was Doing 'Satan's Work' | Law & Crime

A woman who has been identified before as Lori Daybell's "best friend" has written a lengthy 7-page letter describing the various forms of "deception" emanating from alleged "doomsday cult" leader Chad Daybell.

lawandcrime.com

Wow! How can people believe in these things?

 

[iamshadow21]

Wow! How can people believe in these things?

There's something very alluring about someone who reassures you that a) they have all the answers, b) you're special and you belong, and c) you just have to follow these rules set out, and everything you want will be yours, and everything you fear will melt away.

It hooks into very deep desires in everybody. Belonging, certainty, and order. A reason for everything. A plan.

MOO

 

[fred&edna]

These journalists need to start blasting the airways and print media. Plus, the fees are ridiculous.

The court might as well sell tickets for seats in the main (and overflow) courtrooms.

 

[fred&edna]

There's something very alluring about someone who reassures you that a) they have all the answers, b) you're special and you belong, and c) you just have to follow these rules set out, and everything you want will be yours, and everything you fear will melt away.

It hooks into very deep desires in everybody. Belonging, certainty, and order. A reason for everything. A plan.

MOO

Isn't the swinging Jupiter talisman part of the Smith/LDS doctrine... or was that denounced?

 

[iamshadow21]

Isn't the swinging Jupiter talisman part of the Smith/LDS doctrine... or was that denounced?

It is NOT part of mainstream LDS doctrine or belief, to my knowledge. (Feel free to correct me, other LDS or former LDS folks, I don't know everything.)

Source: raised in The Church from birth to eighteen, most close family still members, live with two active members (my mum and a housemate).

The belief that each male member in the highest level of heaven becomes a God and gets his own universe to create and play in... that's real. The idea that Earth's god came from a certain star/star system... that's real. (If I could hie to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye... that's a hymn about where God came from.)

I have not dug deep into this case like many on here. I've watched the Netflix series. I have not, like a number of other cases, gone right back to the beginning of the threads and followed it all the way. I've been trying to focus on one big case at a time. I am on pause from Delphi right now, but up to about 100 threads in. I got up to date with Moscow after a couple of months. I'm currently reading Gannon. So, because I haven't read everything said here about this case, I do my best to give verification and context for mainstream LDS stuff, especially the stuff that is considered 'secret' or kept from newbies or outsiders. (Milk before meat, is what LDS say about that, talk about how nice it is that families stay together forever, don't talk about the other stuff until they've bought in.) But if there's something specific that this splinter group believed, the best I can probably do is say, yes, I've heard of that and it's part of LDS belief or doctrine, or no, that is not.

MOO

 

[887sMtreme]

Wow! How can people believe in these things?

This kind of divination work, done by manipulators like Chad, play directly to what they know the querent wants to hear.

 

[887sMtreme]

I have long been concerned that in this case, LDS teachings about prophecy and communications with God will affect any LDS jurors. While it shouldn’t have a bearing on their determining guilt or innocence in the murders, as opposed to the defendants’ motives in committing them, it may well influence them during them sentencing phase if they are convicted.

 

[fred&edna]

It is NOT part of mainstream LDS doctrine or belief, to my knowledge. (Feel free to correct me, other LDS or former LDS folks, I don't know everything.)

Source: raised in The Church from birth to eighteen, most close family still members, live with two active members (my mum and a housemate).

The belief that each male member in the highest level of heaven becomes a God and gets his own universe to create and play in... that's real. The idea that Earth's god came from a certain star/star system... that's real. (If I could hie to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye... that's a hymn about where God came from.)

I have not dug deep into this case like many on here. I've watched the Netflix series. I have not, like a number of other cases, gone right back to the beginning of the threads and followed it all the way. I've been trying to focus on one big case at a time. I am on pause from Delphi right now, but up to about 100 threads in. I got up to date with Moscow after a couple of months. I'm currently reading Gannon. So, because I haven't read everything said here about this case, I do my best to give verification and context for mainstream LDS stuff, especially the stuff that is considered 'secret' or kept from newbies or outsiders. (Milk before meat, is what LDS say about that, talk about how nice it is that families stay together forever, don't talk about the other stuff until they've bought in.) But if there's something specific that this splinter group believed, the best I can probably do is say, yes, I've heard of that and it's part of LDS belief or doctrine, or no, that is not.

MOO

I simply googled the Jupiter Talisman and some religious info (FLDS &/or LDS) came up in the feed. It seemed similar so that's why I asked. Also, it's quite difficult for me (as an outsider) to know what's considered mainstream (and what is not).

 

[iamshadow21]

I simply googled the Jupiter Talisman and some religious info (FLDS &/or LDS) came up in the feed. It seemed similar so that's why I asked. Also, it's quite difficult for me (as an outsider) to know what's considered mainstream (and what is not).

I just ran the term through a quick Google search and none of the links are any kind of mainstream.

MVHO is that if you asked a person of authority in the church (bishop or upwards), you would gently be told that it is not part of doctrine, and that it is an occult item, very much a no-no.

That's not to say that if you googled outside of official church sources, you wouldn't find links between Joseph Smith and various kinds of divination and occult practices - that is all out there from various different historical sources, some of whom were very close to Smith.

But officially, now, by the mainstream LDS church, it would be very much frowned on, ESPECIALLY if you were using it to try to 'divine' anything with it rather than just wearing it as jewellery.

MOO

 

[fred&edna]

I just ran the term through a quick Google search and none of the links are any kind of mainstream.

MVHO is that if you asked a person of authority in the church (bishop or upwards), you would gently be told that it is not part of doctrine, and that it is an occult item, very much a no-no.

That's not to say that if you googled outside of official church sources, you wouldn't find links between Joseph Smith and various kinds of divination and occult practices - that is all out there from various different historical sources, some of whom were very close to Smith.

But officially, now, by the mainstream LDS church, it would be very much frowned on, ESPECIALLY if you were using it to try to 'divine' anything with it rather than just wearing it as jewellery.

MOO

Thank you for the info!

I wonder about possible jurors (like me) who only know a little of either side. Or maybe I'm just part of a clueless minority... which is entirely possible.

 

[iamshadow21]

Thank you for the info!

I wonder about possible jurors (like me) who only know a little of either side. Or maybe I'm just part of a clueless minority... which is entirely possible.

I don't know, I think in a lot of ways, it might be easier to see this case for what it is - essentially a couple of amoral people who wanted to cheat on their spouses without consequences, live as honeymooners without entanglements, commit multiple murders for profit, and have an avid, loyal following of people who'd trip over themselves to help them achieve it all.

The out-there beliefs mixed up with mainstream LDS stuff (a lot of which is also out-there to non-LDS) is just window dressing mixed with smokescreen.

It's about sex, power, and money. Like most crimes of murder that aren't stranger-killings.

Very much MOO

 

[wnk]

It is NOT part of mainstream LDS doctrine or belief, to my knowledge. (Feel free to correct me, other LDS or former LDS folks, I don't know everything.)

Is this what @fred&edna was referring to, perhaps?

Joseph Smith's Jupiter Talisman

 

[Love Never Fails]

Supposedly Chad is baffled as to why he is incarcerated. At least according to HTC sources.

What I don't get is... Chad can't just tell the jury he's a visionary so lighten up, dudes and dudettes.

Doing so would be a confession. Only the jury I suggested in jest- of his followers- could possibly give him a pass. And that is a humongous stretch and I was joking.

But- can Chad really believe that he can tell a jury that he was thinking with his little head and framed? He fell in love and was blinded? Who would believe that? Especially when so many people believed or even now believe in Chad's visionary gifts? (Including Chad's own children?)

Can he really have it both ways? Being gifted yet not gifted enough to see he was being framed?

MOO

It would be easier for him to lie and say he was a visionary than to say he was framed.
What he could say is after a night of sex, she asked if she could bury both kids in his yard and he said yes. He would be laughed at by the jurors but that is more believable than him being a visionary.

 

[Love Never Fails]

I don't know, I think in a lot of ways, it might be easier to see this case for what it is - essentially a couple of amoral people who wanted to cheat on their spouses without consequences, live as honeymooners without entanglements, commit multiple murders for profit, and have an avid, loyal following of people who'd trip over themselves to help them achieve it all.

The out-there beliefs mixed up with mainstream LDS stuff (a lot of which is also out-there to non-LDS) is just window dressing mixed with smokescreen.

It's about sex, power, and money. Like most crimes of murder that aren't stranger-killings.

Very much MOO

You just gave the jury summation for the prosecution. Bravo!

 

[iamshadow21]

Is this what @fred&edna was referring to, perhaps?

Joseph Smith's Jupiter Talisman

It is, but that site is NOT run by the LDS church.

And as you can see from the timeline they have on there, the whole connection is incredibly dubious. The provenance and documentation linking Smith to any kind of talisman would not hold up to any kind of scrutiny.

I'm not saying there aren't LDS who believe this - the links between the early days of the church and occult and folk magic are known! (Watch Murder Among The Mormons on Netflix if you want an idea of it - and how it can AND HAS been exploited by people approaching high up leadership with 'early church artifacts'.)

The question was, is the Jupiter Talisman mainstream, common practice, or part of official Church doctrine or belief, and I can tell you HECK NO.

MOO

 

[Love Never Fails]

I believe it. I think Chad was manipulating Lori in an abusive cult-leader way.

I also think Lori is guilty of the crimes with which she is charged, and guilty of crimes with which she hasn't been charged. Some of those crimes had nothing to do with Chad. (ex. Creating illness in Tylee)

It is not as if Chad being a cult leader absolves Lori in any way. It's not as if acknowledging this is going to help her case.

On the other hand, refusing to acknowledge that Chad was manipulating Lori COULD help Chad's case.

That seems to be Chad's strategy. There was no cult. I am no cult leader, just a humble gawky guy. The mainstream LDS church knew what I was doing and tacitly supported it. Lori and Alex learned their spiritual justifications for murder from the LDS church.

Then they framed me.

Denying the cult leader qualities of Chad plays right into his defense.

(But this is complicated. I agree with the assertion that the LDS church did tacitly support Chad- even though they did stop selling his books at Deseret and ultimately excommunicated him. In spite of that tacit support, I still consider Chad a cult leader. The church tacitly supported Chads supporters and suppressed criticism such as by his SIL. The church was aware of his "teachings" from people such as his SIL. The problem is the church won't go all the way with quashing Church of the Firstborn tenets. LDS teaches that church leaders are literal prophets who have communicated in a literal way with God. That puts them in a bad position- current prophets lose their credibility if they question the credibility of previous prophets. Then cults easily spring up- citing prophets that taught things that the current church does not emphasize. But the current church does not divorce itself from old teachings, either. The only way out of being a cult factory for the church is to teach that prophets haven't literally communicated with God. Then they can move away from teachings they want to move away from, as culture evolves. I think the vast majority of LDS church members are unaware of the older de-emphasized teachings- and of course are overwhelmingly good people living good lives. But the church teachings, especially of old prophets, can and does get used to create cults and give them credibility.)

MOO

Edited for clarity. The edits probably didn't help. I'm not sure if I have adequately explained my complicated position.

1) The LDS faith facilitates the development of cults

2) Chad was indeed a cult leader, facilitated by the church

3) Denying that Chad is a cult leader helps Chad's defense

4) Denying that the LDS church facilitates the development of cults makes it impossible for the church to help prevent cults and related tragedies in the future

5) Chad's being a cult leader does not absolve Lori

6) LDS's facilitation of cults does not absolve Chad.

MOO

DBM

 

[SteveS]

This has been a long-evolving case, and I don't have a working grasp on all the possibilities. So I have a question for anyone who knows.

It seems to me that Chad could CLAIM that the kids were buried in his backyard, without his knowledge before or after, by Alex. My question is, do we have knowledge of any hard evidence that contradicts that possible claim?

 

[iamshadow21]

This has been a long-evolving case, and I don't have a working grasp on all the possibilities. So I have a question for anyone who knows.

It seems to me that Chad could CLAIM that the kids were buried in his backyard, without his knowledge before or after, by Alex. My question is, do we have knowledge of any hard evidence that contradicts that possible claim?

I'd be interested to know if they excavated the whole 'pet cemetery' and found a raccoon killed and buried at the time he texted Tammy about killing and burying one. Because if there wasn't one found, then that's clearly a lie meant to cover a burial, and I'd like to know why he would lie about that if it never happened, and why he wouldn't investigate freshly turned earth if he never buried anything, just made up a story about why it was turned.

So yeah, that's where I'd start. With the texts to Tammy, and with whether there was ever a raccoon.

MOO

 

[Ruminations]

This has been a long-evolving case, and I don't have a working grasp on all the possibilities. So I have a question for anyone who knows.

It seems to me that Chad could CLAIM that the kids were buried in his backyard, without his knowledge before or after, by Alex. My question is, do we have knowledge of any hard evidence that contradicts that possible claim?

The raccoon text stands out.

MOO

 

[fred&edna]

I don't know, I think in a lot of ways, it might be easier to see this case for what it is - essentially a couple of amoral people who wanted to cheat on their spouses without consequences, live as honeymooners without entanglements, commit multiple murders for profit, and have an avid, loyal following of people who'd trip over themselves to help them achieve it all.

The out-there beliefs mixed up with mainstream LDS stuff (a lot of which is also out-there to non-LDS) is just window dressing mixed with smokescreen.

It's about sex, power, and money. Like most crimes of murder that aren't stranger-killings.

Very much MOO

I posted quite similar thoughts long ago - although far from your superior level of closing for the prosecution - yet, basically the same. But, with so many "secret" court events, filings, and no cameras in the courtroom... my thoughts have been slowly waning (and grow more worrisome).

jmo