ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow - Tylee Ryan - Tammy Daybell - Charles Vallow - *Arrests* #69

[Gardenista]

Yeah,,well..there are drugs that don't show up in autopsy reports, IMO

Plus we briefly heard about her previous cases this morning so there's that.

Per Maricopa County court records, Pastenes plead guilty to dangerous drug possession in 1997 and another drug possession charge in 1998.

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I don't believe the state when they said they just found out about her old drug charges this week. We've known about this for years.

 

[Kroni]

Chad and Lori are ruthless, psychopaths who used their so called religion to manipulate and destroy people. It's very apparent through witness testimony that any time they had an issue that affected their self serving plans (i.e. the spouses, kids, relatives are in the way) they would manipulate believers and use the terms "dark" and "castings" to further their own agenda. Very scary stuff. I hope she gets life in prison (although she deserves the death penalty) and Chad should get the death penalty. I wouldn't want to be Alex facing judgment from God for his part in this. This case is so sickening and to do what they did is atrocious. They are beyond evil.

 

[Cedars]

Maybe so, but logically if that was the case they would not have believed the ‘self defence’ claim either.

Logic has nothing whatever to do with it.

A big part of the appeal of any cult (including, for example, the viral online conspiracy theory QAnon), is that the members feel like 'insiders' of a special group because they have special knowledge from some ultimate authority.

In this case, Chad wrote and spoke that his near-death experiences gave him special awareness of God's plan, God was communicating through him.

The Bible is full of references to spiritual rightness vs false wordly authority, a basic example is the crucifixion.

The deaths were obviously self-serving, but IMO the more interesting question is why did previously law-abiding, even upstanding, Christians turn, in their 50s, into systematic, cold-blooded murderers, including a previously loving mother.

To understand that, I believe understanding the nature of a cult, and it's effects on the mind, are necessary.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

Logic has nothing whatever to do with it.

A big part of the appeal of any cult (including, for example, the viral online conspiracy theory QAnon), is that the members feel like 'insiders' of a special group because they have special knowledge from some ultimate authority.

In this case, Chad wrote and spoke that his near-death experiences gave him special awareness of God's plan, God was communicating through him.

The bible is full of references to spiritual rightness vs false wordly authority, a basic example is the crucifixion.

The deaths were obviously self-serving, but IMO the more interesting question is why did previously law-abiding, even upstanding, Christians turn, in their 50s, into systematic, cold-blooded murderers, including a previously loving mother.

To understand that, I believe understanding the nature of a cult, and it's effects on the mind, are necessary.

JMO

I don't think Lori was a previously loving mother, I think she was an abusive mother, and she really destroyed Joe Ryan even if she didn't murder him. There were many concerns raised about her in early custody suits.

just one link

'Cult mom' Lori Vallow had been sued by her ex-husband for hiding her daughter

THE alleged cult mom charged over the disappearance of her two children was previously sued for hiding her daughter from her ex-husband, it can be revealed. Lori Vallow’s third husband Joseph…

www.the-sun.com

 

[BUF]

I know this is a ways off … but do think Boyce will allow a video camera or even one still camera when a verdict is reached? I have a feeling the various media will try for this.

 

[Cedars]

I am starting to "see" the defence going with the "religious takover" as being the real killers............ And I think they are protecting the LDS Church quite well as they do this..

With Melanie G, and Zulema just "playing dumb" when they were both into the "religious takover" as well, they are just feeding the defence.

I remember very very early on, I felt they had to make the main focus the money, not the religious crapola.

The defense can argue what it wants, doesn't mean it will be successful.

Juries are given very explicit instructions about how to come to their conclusions, they're not allowed to just jump to their own conclusions. In my unexpert opinion, what they have to look for is
a. does the evidence indicate the person committed the crime
b. does the evidence show the person formed an intent to commit the crime.

The defense would have to argue that the religious beliefs made her incapable of forming the intent herself, that she was so controlled by Chad, she had no mind of her own.

However the emails and testimony shown so far, indicate she did have her own opinions, took independent actions, etc.

A prosecution can't just leave out vast swathes of evidence because it shows the religious atmosphere that this all happened in. That would be a a manipulative attempt to get a conviction at any cost.

JMO

 

[Spartygirl]

How is Lori the ring leader if the doctrine came from Chad? He made up all of the rules, assigned roles to members, made zombie proclamations at opportune times, picked zombie names, etc. Lori had ideas of her own, but then she would consult Chad, because he was the visionary in the group.

I was referring more to the planning of the murders/deaths
I think LVD took the lead involving them.

Yes, Chad lead the "gathering" of the group, flattering them with Bull$hit so they would follow them in their missions.

 

[Cedars]

I don't think Lori was a previously loving mother, I think she was an abusive mother, and she really destroyed Joe Ryan even if she didn't murder him. There were many concerns raised about her in early custody suits.

just one link

'Cult mom' Lori Vallow had been sued by her ex-husband for hiding her daughter

THE alleged cult mom charged over the disappearance of her two children was previously sued for hiding her daughter from her ex-husband, it can be revealed. Lori Vallow’s third husband Joseph…

www.the-sun.com

Sure (I mean, she's probably a psychopath), however the testimony already given at trial by Kay and MG is that she was a very loving mother. So that is what the jury have been told

Personally, I'm focussed on the evidence being presented at trial when I make my comments.

JMO

 

[Cedars]

I was referring more to the planning of the murders/deaths
I think LVD took the lead involving them.

Yes, Chad lead the "gathering" of the group, flattering them with Bull$hit so they would follow them in their missions.

All the major evidence about Chad's role has probably been left out of this trial, and will be presented when he goes to trial.

Since this trial is about Lori's guilt, it's naturally focussed on Lori's part in it. But I don't believe the prosecution will argue that he was her helpless puppet.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

Sure (i'm mean, she's probably a psychopath), however the testimony already given at trial by Kay and MG is that she was a very loving mother. So that is what the jury have been told

Personally, I'm focussed on the evidence being presented at trial when I make my comments.

JMO

Witnesses will be testifying as to their knowledge of her, which may not necessarily align with the reality, if you're looking to truly understand the issues of cults and whether she was a 'previously loving mother' and if she changed after meeting Daybell. It won't really be an informed study if you focus only on trial testimony of what she chose to show some people who knew her, but a matter of choice, obviously. It's certainly interesting as regards the other members drawn to the group perhaps. JMO

The prosecution made reference to earlier dealings with the family court - "in a 2009 child custody case in Travis County Texas the defendant was found guilty of seven different counts of civil contempt" - brought up at her bail hearing

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[Boxer]

Logic has nothing whatever to do with it.

A big part of the appeal of any cult (including, for example, the viral online conspiracy theory QAnon), is that the members feel like 'insiders' of a special group because they have special knowledge from some ultimate authority.

In this case, Chad wrote and spoke that his near-death experiences gave him special awareness of God's plan, God was communicating through him.

The Bible is full of references to spiritual rightness vs false wordly authority, a basic example is the crucifixion.

The deaths were obviously self-serving, but IMO the more interesting question is why did previously law-abiding, even upstanding, Christians turn, in their 50s, into systematic, cold-blooded murderers, including a previously loving mother.

To understand that, I believe understanding the nature of a cult, and it's effects on the mind, are necessary.

JMO

Allowing self interest to start guiding actions and what to think.
Chad was a sexton, Tammy got him the job, so MOO he lazily and spookily sat on his golf cart in the cemetary daydreaming up a Mormon jambalaya where he was god's mouthpiece, and to his glee, prestige and profit, his stories worked on others.
MOO He is a dead beat grifter, a murderer. His and Lori's motives of overriding self interest were hidden by them in Mormon mysticism.

 

[Tortoise]

I know this is a ways off … but do think Boyce will allow a video camera or even one still camera when a verdict is reached? I have a feeling the various media will try for this.

I don't think he will. I think one reason for his order could be to reduce pre-trial publicity interfering with Chad's trial.

 

[fred&edna]

yeah lots of smiley chattiness going on everyday

I wonder how each juror might be mentally processing the evidence they are seeing and hearing WITH the chatty, smiley and occasionally pouting defendant in the courtroom. I also wonder if they are dreading or curious to return on Tuesday.

 

[Cedars]

Witnesses will be testifying as to their knowledge of her, which may not necessarily align with the reality, if you're looking to truly understand the issues of cults and whether she was a 'previously loving mother' and if she changed after meeting Daybell. It won't really be an informed study if you focus only on trial testimony of what she chose to show some people who knew her, but a matter of choice, obviously. It's certainly interesting as regards the other members drawn to the group perhaps. JMO

The prosecution made reference to earlier dealings with the family court - "in a 2009 child custody case in Travis County Texas the defendant was found guilty of seven different counts of civil contempt" - brought up at her bail hearing

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I agree, that the bigger picture of her life and behaviour is more complex than has been presented at trial.

She certainly turned on her previous husband JR, it seems almost a dress rehearsal for what she ended up doing to her next husband, CV.

In divorcing JR, she defended her right to sole custody of Tylee to a hysterical degree. So the fact that -IMO- she'll be convicted of murdering Tylee 10 years later, is mind-boggling.

IMO it shows her need to be in complete control, and the lengths she'll go to get what she wants (at any particular moment, since what she wants changes), just like the prosecution said at the opening.

However, I think her and Alex's involvement in the doomsday cult emboldened them, they were willing to cross lines they hadn't crossed before.

JMO

 

[BeachSky]

Sure (I mean, she's probably a psychopath), however the testimony already given at trial by Kay and MG is that she was a very loving mother. So that is what the jury have been told

Personally, I'm focussed on the evidence being presented at trial when I make my comments.

JMO

I thought I read she fat shamed beautiful Tylee. Seriously,and we know she got rid of JJ’s service dog.
I think she was always a self serving Narc.
Loved attention. IOW the family photos & motions reflected how she wanted to be seen. Appeared to used her husbands & kids as vehicles(appliances)to achieve her ego driven goal$ IMO.
To kill your own children then try to jockey that you, yourself,not be killed (death penalty). Well that’s the true Lori. Always out for Lori.

JMO

 

[Spartygirl]

k-mac quote-
eta
His little harem of 5.
Lori
Zulema
Mel P
Mel G
Julie R (hanging by a thread)

And of course the 'prettiest' (cough) was his chosen lover.

The only money they got was Tammys life insurance.

This was RINSE REPEAT method to gain cash to support their little cult in Rexy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BBM-- OMG-- I forgot all about Julie R.
For awhile, she was all over SM and I caught info here and there about her.

I have not seen or heard anything about her in a long time--
I wonder if she is on the Witness list. ??

 

[Gut_feeling]

I wonder how each juror might be mentally processing the evidence they are seeing and hearing WITH the chatty, smiley and occasionally pouting defendant in the courtroom. I also wonder if they are dreading or curious to return on Tuesday.

Good question. They have had to view such traumatizing images, as a part of their civic duty, and they see her, the childrens' mother, behaving in this disgusting manner, seemingly with no remorse.

 

[BUF]

I don't think he will. I think one reason for his order could be to reduce pre-trial publicity interfering with Chad's trial.

The verdict will probably be announced everywhere … with or without a photo.

 

[Tortoise]

I agree, that the bigger picture of her life and behaviour is more complex than has been presented at trial.

She certainly turned on her previous husband JR, it seems almost a dress rehearsal for what she ended up doing to her next husband, CV.

In divorcing JR, she defended her right to sole custody of Tylee to a hysterical degree. So the fact that -IMO- she'll be convicted of murdering Tylee 10 years later, is mind-boggling.

IMO it shows her need to be in complete control, and the lengths she'll go to get what she wants (at any particular moment, since what she wants changes), just like the prosecution said at the opening.

However, I think her and Alex's involvement in the doomsday cult emboldened them, they were willing to cross lines they hadn't crossed before.

JMO

As well as control, I think meting out punishments is also a very large part of her nature, although punishment doesn't seem to be the right word because it suggests retaliation for a wrong. To invent an infidelity, and really try to hurt Charles and strip him of everything, and to take away the things that kept JJ stable, his dog, his medication and his iPad, when it was her who was in love with another man, just shows an astounding level of cruelty and spite that she can just whip up out of nowhere. Something drives her to be cruel and to demonize others, to raze others to the ground, way before Chad came along with zombie names and dark ratings. IMO

 

[Cedars]

I thought I read she fat shamed beautiful Tylee. Seriously,and we know she got rid of JJ’s service dog.

Yeah, I mean she's accused of murdering them and I believe she's guilty. I guess I should have said 'up until December 2018, she appeared to many, including her husband, to be a loving mother. She didn't lock her children up, beat and torture them, deprive them of food and necessities, and otherwise show how much she wished they were dead".

JMO