ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #72

[Nikynoo]

I gave my thoughts on what I see as weaknesses in the case and why, because I was asked. Those items (and others), I don't even need an attorney to tell me that there are plenty of innocent explanations for each of them, or they are being overplayed.

Reminder that the defense hasn't brought their case yet at all. Although it has seemed apathetic, and can't understand them refusing to challenge or point out the glaring weaknesses in what's being presented. Perhaps they intend to do that later? Or think it's all incredibly obvious? It's their case, I guess.

One reality that keeps getting ignored -- the jury is not bound to see any of the evidence in the way that is most favorable to the prosec. And I'm not convinced the pieces (as presented so far) can hold up to any sort of scrutiny. We'll see what happens and hope for the best.

Have MG and ZP been released from their subpoenas?

ETA ZP has been excused and released from her subpoena.

MG was realeased. Nothing mentioned about subpoena.

Question. Can either MG or ZP be called by the defence?

 

[cottonweaver]

Have MG and ZP been released from their subpoenas?

yes iirc

 

[887sMtreme]

FYI, the temple and church are not the same thing.

They didn't sit together at a church, or what can also be called a chapel. That is where Sunday services are held. They are open to members and visitors of all ages.

The temple is a building with the specific purpose of rites and rituals. It is not a meeting house for regular Sunday worship. Most Temple sessions are only open to adult members in good standing who have to go through a vetting process regularly and get a 'recommend' to prove this good standing to Temple staff.

MOO, based on being born in church myself and still having many immediate family who are active members.

Thank you! I didn’t *quite* understand the difference.

 

[indicolite22]

I'm re-listening to LB's opening statement. She says that there were messages about JJ being dark. She also states that MBP, AB and Chad's neighbors would testify at this trial.

 

[mickey2942]

Now, the defense should be interesting, if they poke holes in the prosecution lack of evidence, LVD is just a sweet innocent, who knew nothing about what her brother and CD were doing.

Or, is LVD a sweet gal, who was star struck by CD, and followed his orders to kill Tylee and JJ. As a sacrifice to be in his cult. She was manipulated by CD, and has mental health problems.

They really can't go both ways here.

 

[indicolite22]

LB did not indicate if Chad's son Garth would be testifying. We don't know when in the evening of Oct 18 Garth left for work and when he arrived home at night. On Sept 18 Alex's phone was in the vicinity of Chad's home roughly between 10pm and midnight. Chad exchanged messages with Lori at around 11:30. It seems possible that Alex took an active part in Tammy's murder and that she was dead by midnight. Chad had to wait until morning before raising the alarm.

 

[Trebor5591]

<snip>Some people just need to wake up and see things for how they really are... not for how they hope they are. <snip>

IMO, what worries me is the number of people here on WS who think there is no evidence against Lori, just because there is no "smoking gun" text. If a minority of people on this board feel that way, then count on at least on juror who feels that way as well. In my opinion, there is a chance the Goddess will walk away from this. Saying that sickens me, because she is deserving of the death penalty, IMO.

 

[fred&edna]

Sure, I think all of us would listen to and respect our fellow jurors and might change our mind. But it should not be just because you are outnumbered.

RSBM

It should not be because you are outnumbered but being outnumbered holds a great deal of sway.

imo

 

[indicolite22]

The article includes an interview with the people who maintain the memorial for the children.

The Mormon city at center of Lori Vallow's 'doomsday cult'

Rexburg in east Idaho dubs itself 'America's family community'. But in 2019, that reputation was upended when cult mom Lori Vallow allegedly murdered her children there.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Some 'would put their hands up, physically put their hands up, and say, 'don't even go there with me. Chad would never. Chad is the most amazing, strong individual. He's so faithful in the Gospel, there is no way he is he would have anything to do with any of this.'

Another local, who has followed the trial in Madison County Courthouse, said those who remain loyal to Daybell have gone 'underground'.

 

[Erutan]

Lori was attached at the hip to both these men.

She is the link in the chain.

The meat in the chad and alex sandwich.

An over cooked sandwich too



People shouldn't get off on technicalities. Casey Anthony is whats wrong with juries.
And usually its just one........always someone who wants impossible proof. When reasonable proof and common sense is enough.

Well said, @k-mac !
Glad that it looks like there will be concrete evidence that Tammy was murdered as well.
Justice for Charles, too.


Idk if Alex was murdered as well, but am not feeling very sorry for Lori's brother whose fingerprints were on the bag that JJ's remains were found in.

Lori Vallow's brother left fingerprints on bag JJ buried inside

Tara Martinez, a forensic scientist at Idaho State Police, said she found a match to Alex Cox's right little finger and palm on a piece of black plastic which the child was found buried inside.

www.dailymail.co.uk

M00.

 

[Erutan]

At the moment, I think LV will be found guilty of Grand Theft and Conspiracy for the murders of Tylee and JJ. I was hoping for evidence relating to the murders of the children but it seems that the prosecution has not provide much evidence (even circumstantial) that Lori was involved in the actual murders. At the moment, I think she will be found not guilty of Conspiracy in relation to Tammys murder.

Sounds very likely.
It's infuriating to me as I believe LV was a pivotal motivating force behind the horrific murders of her children.
Imo.

 

[Erutan]

IMO, what worries me is the number of people here on WS who think there is no evidence against Lori, just because there is no "smoking gun" text. If a minority of people on this board feel that way, then count on at least on juror who feels that way as well. In my opinion, there is a chance the Goddess will walk away from this. Saying that sickens me, because she is deserving of the death penalty, IMO.

Agreed 100 %.
I am sickened as well.
Imo.

 

[cottonweaver]

At the moment, I think LV will be found guilty of Grand Theft and Conspiracy for the murders of Tylee and JJ. I was hoping for evidence relating to the murders of the children but it seems that the prosecution has not provide much evidence (even circumstantial) that Lori was involved in the actual murders. At the moment, I think she will be found not guilty of Conspiracy in relation to Tammys murder.

Do you mean present at the murders of JJ & Tylee?

why do you think she'll be found NG Conspiracy for Tammy's murder?

Let's think back to what they have presented already, just the Tammy conspiracy charge:
- "Idiot moron - he can't do anything right by himself" ( Angry L - Z) Jury definitely going to draw inferences from that
- what LV said about this once Tammy was killed ( After she heard about Tammy's death Zulema talked to Lori and she said her and Chad received instructions and visitations from angels who taught them how to cast out demons and they know how. That's why Tammy passed away)
- spirit Viola/Tammy dark ( combine that Chad - Lori text with what Z testified about bodies needed to be destroyed & what she said about casting out Viola) Melani P ought to be testifying for that casting as she was there
- LV digital searches rings thru whole summer ( prepping months before wearing these in actual wedding ceremony)
- testimony about the hitman & protector, followed by all the evidence which nails Alex as Mr paintball & his movements 10 days later when Tammy is murdered & the calls & texts AC - LV on these nights. ( I'm not convinced jury will see it as reasonable that Alex did a side-deal to eliminate Tammy without LV's foreknowledge)

Minor, teeny tiny puzzle pieces, optional extras
- Chad - Lori texts about his kids(?) graduation day & wtte of having to wait
- A stretch but I'd risk it - the whole combined scheme incl the Jeep & the failed shooting ( link back BB, security TV, her google searches.
- What MG said about Chad's new ' teachings' ( can't be exalted if divorced)
- After the fact, LV pretends not to know Tammy has died. ( calls with friends testimony)

There will be more but it would take time to search because - so many witnesses across so many days

ETA
Just to make clear to anybody new to case - Lori isn't indicted for 1st degree murder Tammy, she's indicted for conspiracy to commit murder of Tammy (It's Chad who's charged with 1st degree murder Tammy)

 

[indicolite22]

Lori Vallow was 'spooked' by courtroom 'stare-off with victim JJ's aunt'

LORI Vallow shared a long and “strange” stare-off with an aunt of her slain son JJ before asking a judge if she could be excused from the courtroom amid graphic testimony about how his …

www.the-sun.com

In the afternoon, prosecutors were scheduled to show graphic images of the children's remains.

Present in the courtroom throughout was Kresha Kay Easton, JJ's paternal aunt, who told The U.S. Sun that just minutes before the request was made, she'd shared an intense stare-down with Lori.

"The judge excused us for lunch, and we had to stand up for the jurors to exit and [...] just stood there and looked directly over at her and she looked directly at me.

"It was the longest and most awkward stare-off [...] usually when you lock eyes with someone you're talking but nothing was said and nothing was spoken, it was just this gaze. We just locked eyes for an awkward amount of time."

 

[mickey2942]

LVD was probably trying to cast negative spells and death rays using her "goddess" abilities.

 

[Howl]

Who is guilty of murdering who and when is my opinion, of course.
I'm assuming that the prosecution will hammer, hard, on brother Alex' sick relationship w Lori.

At least some jurors will put together that, even with a lack of hard, specific "smoking gun" evidence of Lori's exact role in their deaths,

1. her children were GONE
2. she never reported them missing
3. lied repeatedly to various people about where they might be
4. continued to receive their SS and other benefits to the tune of around $4,000/month
5. abandoned her apartment overnight and scarpered to Hawaii when LE came around for welfare checks on her children

Then, her children's bodies were found on her new husband's property where:

1. Lori's brother Alex (who murdered CV, Lori's husband #4) attempted to murder Tammy as she unloaded groceries by the house
2. Brother Alex, who killed her children, (one by suffocation and one who was partially dismembered and burned -- CoD unknown), disposed of the bodies of her murdered children (possibly with Chad's assistance?)
3. Chad murdered Tammy at a time when her brother Alex' phone was pinging not so very far away
4. Lori was online ordering a wedding ring on her 4th husband's CV's account (the husband murdered by brother Alex) BEFORE Chad, husband #5, murdered his wife (I think that's the correct time timeline and details for the wedding ring)

Moving right along:

1. Just over two weeks after Chad murdered (possibly w/Lori's brother Alex' assistance) and buried wife #1, Chad and Lori married in Hawaii.
2. Chad/Lori at various times told various people they had no children/were "empty nesters", including the landlady in Hawaii
3. On an existential note, no one, not one person, has reported that Lori ever grieved her children's deaths.

It's...a lot.

 

[KMouse]

Heard one lawyer liken it to a bag of puzzle pieces, another to a construction project. ( there are more scholarly quotes on CE from eminent legal types but anyway....)

The puzzle analogy is a good one because it tries to symbolise the totality of evidence & how pieces of CE interlock to build the whole.

You sort all the puzzle pieces, sky, grass, the big building in the centre, or whatever....
You do the puzzle.
As you near completion you may have some pieces missing but you can determine the final the image nonetheless.

( If otoh you have a whacking number of missing pieces or ones in key areas which means you can't tell whether the key building is a church or a school, then you have a problem)

Great analogy.
The more evidence I hear the more I believe that this was planned murders and it started with Charles. A divorce would have been costly and ugly and it would have exposed the affair. They got away with it so they did it again with Tammy. They got insurance money from Tammy, thought they were getting it from Charles. Chad & Lori didn't have jobs and were living the life in Hawaii on the kid's social security all the while knowing Tylee & JJ were murdered and buried in Chad's yard. It was justified by the kids being 'dark'. I think all that talk was a ruse.

 

[fred&edna]

The article includes an interview with the people who maintain the memorial for the children.

The Mormon city at center of Lori Vallow's 'doomsday cult'

Rexburg in east Idaho dubs itself 'America's family community'. But in 2019, that reputation was upended when cult mom Lori Vallow allegedly murdered her children there.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Some 'would put their hands up, physically put their hands up, and say, 'don't even go there with me. Chad would never. Chad is the most amazing, strong individual. He's so faithful in the Gospel, there is no way he is he would have anything to do with any of this.'

Another local, who has followed the trial in Madison County Courthouse, said those who remain loyal to Daybell have gone 'underground'.

From your link...

"And, what's perhaps most jarring, it's said there is still a small 'underground' sect who refuse to believe Daybell - once viewed as a nothing more than a weird but 'faithful' follower of Christ - is guilty."

IMO... this is worse than jarring.

 

[RickshawFan]

Didn't Charles tell Chad or Lori he was going to email Tammy. I personally think Chad hacked into her email, deleted it, and blocked it before she even saw it. He likely knew her password but may not have even needed it if it was stored in a browser or Outlook.

I'm speculating that at least a partial reason why Lori had taken Charles' phone and taunted him with it during the lead-up to his murder, was that she was reading his messages to Tammy, and he didn't want her to.

 

[TigerLou]

Thank you very much for the information.

According to my timeline, which for these two dates is sourced to the current trial, Chad and Lori first met on October 26, 2018 at a PAP conference in St. George Utah. On November 16, 2018 they made their first visit to a temple together, presumably in the Phoenix area. I think this might have been when she had the get together at her house. It was on a Friday.

I've lived in and around several Mormon communities in my life and where I live now there is a disproportionate LDS presence. I even went to primary a few times when I was about 5. But I just am not familiar with what goes on in the temple and why people visit. I wondered if they would have privacy, thinking there might be private rooms for people to worship privately, or in their case, "hookup" as disgusting as that probably is to most LDS folks. But I guess not.

So I guess as followup questions, why do people go to the temple? Would it be a place to go for atonement? Why would LV, MG, and ZP go there together? Would it be a place they might go to meet and discuss their "new theology?"

Part of my reason for asking is that the prosecution introduced the dates of their temple visits as evidence so they must consider it relevant. Idaho is a heavily Mormon state so I think it is reasonable to assume sevel of the jury are affiliated with the LDS church. Do you think this testimony about temple visits has meaning to them that it may not to those of us who are not LDS?

I think the dates they went to the temple surrounding the dates of the deaths is significant.

They were claiming to basically have this extra enlightenment and communication with God. LDS often go to to the temple to pray or seek guidance or peace in their lives. This is a significant thing for us. When I read the corresponding dates of their temple attendance to the dates of the deaths I immediately thought they used that as justification for themselves. They probably convinced AC of this. Especially since they were claiming to have seen Jesus and Moroni there.

Also, temples are places that are holy to us, so people actively out committing murder should never be stepping foot through that door. Of course they should also not be lying in their interviews to get the recommends to go either. We believe our temples are literal houses of God (not that He actually lives there, we don’t believe that—but we want them to be places worthy of Him should he want to be there. I’m half asleep so I’m not sure I worded that well.)

The temple is a very reverent place, you won’t find a lot of noise. People talk in quiet voices or whispers. There is a lot of quiet prayer or self reflection, thoughtfulness. Sometimes I might go with a group of friends while my husband has to work but once there, it is very much not a social outing or gathering. The temple is probably the most modest place I’ve been, and a hookup there would be very offensive to its existence.

You can Google Rexburg LDS temple inside images. It will show you pretty much all the rooms inside. When the temples are built they are opened to the public for awhile before they are dedicated and become operational so there are media pictures and articles about each one from local media that tour them in addition to images the church releases.

I tend to think a jury of LDS peers would understand the significance of the temple attendance corresponding to the crimes.