ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #73

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  • #841
Why would Alex quit his job and start stockpiling guns? Why did he suddenly want to get married? Lots more quesstions.
RSBM

Because someone who he thought had a hotline to God told him the world was about to end?

I was raised mainstream LDS, and you can bet if the First Presidency announced today the world was going to end this year, that's what a huge amount of mainstream LDS would do. Not the ones who are already preppers and fringe believers, the mainstream ones.

But they never will do that, because, as my mum (active and lifelong LDS) likes to quote, no man, and not even the angels in heaven knows the hour of the Second Coming. It's in the New Testament. So any man who says he knows in advance is lying. (Just my Mum's opinion for you folks today.)

MOO
 
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  • #842
I listened to the testimony of AB again today and caught something I hadn’t heard the other day. AB said that near the end of her friendship with LV that LV told AB that MB/MP was dark and I think she said 1 or 2 of her children. AB had also said that LV was very snippy with MB at times in Hawaii. I don’t know whether LV told AB that MB was dark in Hawaii or in Idaho but pretty sure it had to be one or the other and during those few days. It raises a couple of questions for me.

1) It sounds like MB & LV had a falling out of some type either shortly before going to Hawaii or while in Hawaii. MB was with LV when they went to MO when TD was shot at and 10 days later was in Hawaii with her and returned to LV‘s apartment when she got back to ID and in early media interviews she seemed to be defending LV. So what happened in or before Hawaii that had LV agitated and caused her to tell AB that MB was dark?

2) And did MB/MP know that LV said she was dark? AB & MB were together without LV for a few days in Hawaii. AB was already creeped out by LV - suspicions about CV death and now TD. Did MB know LV said she’d gone dark? Did AB tell MB about what LV had told her about MB - either in Hawaii or after returning to Rexburg? Surely MB would have known she was in danger if she’d gone dark. Is that why she blurted things out about LV & CD to IP the day after they were married? (Which was just over a month after she got back from Hawaii.)

3) Would MB have been next because she knew too much?
 
  • #843
snipped for focus

[ETA - Tammy Daybell originally did not have an ME report at all. Brenda Dye, the Rexburg EMT/county coroner, who is neither an ME nor a doctor, was the one who made that original determination. An ME would typically be a doctor who is also trained to investigate cause of death for official determination.]
Let’s not forget Tammy’s post-exhumation autopsy, which was thorough and professional. That M.E.’s determination was that Tammy died of asphyxiation, homicide. That determination had not yet been added to her death certificate at the time of his testimony, so pulmonary edema is still given as her C.O.D. I wonder why it wasn’t done.
 
  • #844
This is all true of course. And when the AC autopsy first came out I did not question the natural causes conclusion.

But even though we have not heard a lot of new information from the trial we have heard some. The picture I am getting is that there was this core group that did some really strange and extreme things and I think the core extends beyond Lori, Chad, and Alex. I'm not saying anyone else committed any crimes, only that I don't think the full extent of this group's activities is known and I am now suspicious of quite a few things including whether AC was somehow murdered.

Why would Alex quit his job and start stockpiling guns? Why did he suddenly want to get married? Lots more quesstions.
That's why I wouldn't put it past Zulema to take him out.
 
  • #845
I listened to the testimony of AB again today and caught something I hadn’t heard the other day. AB said that near the end of her friendship with LV that LV told AB that MB/MP was dark and I think she said 1 or 2 of her children. AB had also said that LV was very snippy with MB at times in Hawaii. I don’t know whether LV told AB that MB was dark in Hawaii or in Idaho but pretty sure it had to be one or the other and during those few days. It raises a couple of questions for me.

1) It sounds like MB & LV had a falling out of some type either shortly before going to Hawaii or while in Hawaii. MB was with LV when they went to MO when TD was shot at and 10 days later was in Hawaii with her and returned to LV‘s apartment when she got back to ID and in early media interviews she seemed to be defending LV. So what happened in or before Hawaii that had LV agitated and caused her to tell AB that MB was dark?

2) And did MB/MP know that LV said she was dark? AB & MB were together without LV for a few days in Hawaii. AB was already creeped out by LV - suspicions about CV death and now TD. Did MB know LV said she’d gone dark? Did AB tell MB about what LV had told her about MB - either in Hawaii or after returning to Rexburg? Surely MB would have known she was in danger if she’d gone dark. Is that why she blurted things out about LV & CD to IP the day after they were married? (Which was just over a month after she got back from Hawaii.)

3) Would MB have been next because she knew too much?
Her reply to the question 'Did Lori indicate anyone else was dark?' was somewhat ambiguous, IMO: 'Yes, Melani B-one or two of her children'. I interpreted that answer as meaning 'one or two of Melani's children', rather than 'Melani B and one or two of her children'.

This is also how Nate Eaton, East Idaho News interprets it:
"Lori said one or two of Melani’s children were also dark."

Pretty creepy Lori/Chad might have been trying to persuade Melani to turn against her children (iirc she was preoccupied with getting custody, after the attack on BB failed).

JMO
 
  • #846
Because someone who he thought had a hotline to God told him the world was about to end?

I was raised mainstream LDS, and you can bet if the First Presidency announced today the world was going to end this year, that's what a huge amount of mainstream LDS would do. Not the ones who are already preppers and fringe believers, the mainstream ones.
MOO
I agree, exactly. Alex believed Chad, who prophesized that God was sending him the news that the end - the apocalypse, predicted in the Bible, was approaching. Chad declared he and Lori were destined to lead the 144,000, who something something - were very important, I'm not clear on the details.

In order to be part of the 144,000 chosen ones, you had to be married.

Alex's role was to be the protector, like chief of the armed forces for the 144,000, and that's why he needed lots of guns. There would be conflict coming from all those who were not going to heaven, but to the other place, hell.

All this appears to not be even mentioned in the trial, because religion. Leaving a great hole in the place where understanding motives would be, IMO.
 
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  • #847
Absolutely. He'll be a martyr. He'll write his nonsense from jail and his groupies will be led to believe that they will still be the chosen ones. Wonder how much get gets sent to him for canteen money.
Then he might eat himself to death - and do I care?
 
  • #848
Then he might eat himself to death - and do I care?
I hope he is spending his canteen money on sodium laden cups of soup.
 
  • #849
I think if you want to see a good, moral, upstanding LDS member, you have only to look at Tammy Daybell. Rest in Peace, Tammy.
 
  • #850
Not at all important but... does anyone know what they were doing with a bunch of those silicone rings? Were they used as hair ties? Or wedding bands for the beach etc (so the real malachite rings didn't sustain any damage)? Or some spiritual tools? Or some kink thing? lol
Passing them out to potential couples for instantaneous marriages? Hell if they had thought sooner, they could have scammed their way through Vegas by setting up shop and collecting many more clients to grow the 144,000. They could have called them (RINGS OF FIRE) guaranteed to open your intimate portals, at the low, low price of only fifty dollars each.:eek:
 
  • #851
Been thinking about Chad's mental health mixed with idiotic fantasies.

Had Alex been successful and shot Tammy dead that day...
how would he justify such a radical extreme violent episode in little Salem?
Tammy was basically a sweet non assuming librarian...didn't have an enemy in the world,
Chad the deeply religious god fearing author family man.

Why would this happen to them??
The rational simply wasn't there. LE would have been all over Chads backside from the get go.
IMO they would have went down sooner had Alex been successful in killing her that night.

A masked gunman is a totally targeted event.
Chad forgot to set up previous issues for a fall guy. (but did he forget???)
or was he 'clever' enough in his own mind that Alex did it. Alex will go down for it not me.

He has got his lovers 2 kids buried right there (murdered) in his yard and they attempt to murder Tammy in that yard....can you imagine the cops swarming the place had it of worked???

Very short sighted man or brazen as hell?
 
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  • #852
RSBM

Because someone who he thought had a hotline to God told him the world was about to end?

I was raised mainstream LDS, and you can bet if the First Presidency announced today the world was going to end this year, that's what a huge amount of mainstream LDS would do. Not the ones who are already preppers and fringe believers, the mainstream ones.

But they never will do that, because, as my mum (active and lifelong LDS) likes to quote, no man, and not even the angels in heaven knows the hour of the Second Coming. It's in the New Testament. So any man who says he knows in advance is lying. (Just my Mum's opinion for you folks today.)

MOO
I guess that's really my point. There was a much bigger plan in play here. It could have been, and like was, based on delusions. We are getting a lot of names in the evidence and trial. They are not sleuthable and we should leave them alone. But I think it shows there were dozens of people in the "cult," not just the half dozen we keep talking about. And we have a spectrum of "buy-in" from DW and JM who seem to have not wanted to cross that line from mainstream LDS beliefs to others like LV and ZP who jumped in with both feet. I really wonder how many others are out there and whether other crimes have been committed.
 
  • #853
Been thinking about Chad's mental health mixed with idiotic fantasies.

Had Alex been successful and shot Tammy dead that day...
how would he justify such a radical extreme violent episode in little Salem?
Tammy was basically a sweet non assuming librarian...didn't have an enemy in the world,
Chad the deeply religious god fearing author family man.

Why would this happen to them??
The rational simply wasn't there. LE would have been all over Chads backside from the get go.
IMO they would have went down sooner had Alex been successful in killing her that night.

A masked gunman is a totally targeted event.
Chad forgot to set up previous issues for a fall guy. (but did he forget???)
or was he 'clever' enough in his own mind that Alex did it. Alex will go down for it not me.

He has got his lovers 2 kids buried right there (murdered) in his yard and they attempt to murder Tammy in that yard....can you imagine the cops swarming the place had it of worked???

Very short sighted man or brazen as hell?
I 100% agree with you. But also, why would Chad have this happen when he was THERE? Why not when he was clearly at a conference or something?
 
  • #854
I listened to the testimony of AB again today and caught something I hadn’t heard the other day. AB said that near the end of her friendship with LV that LV told AB that MB/MP was dark and I think she said 1 or 2 of her children. AB had also said that LV was very snippy with MB at times in Hawaii. I don’t know whether LV told AB that MB was dark in Hawaii or in Idaho but pretty sure it had to be one or the other and during those few days. It raises a couple of questions for me.

1) It sounds like MB & LV had a falling out of some type either shortly before going to Hawaii or while in Hawaii. MB was with LV when they went to MO when TD was shot at and 10 days later was in Hawaii with her and returned to LV‘s apartment when she got back to ID and in early media interviews she seemed to be defending LV. So what happened in or before Hawaii that had LV agitated and caused her to tell AB that MB was dark?

2) And did MB/MP know that LV said she was dark? AB & MB were together without LV for a few days in Hawaii. AB was already creeped out by LV - suspicions about CV death and now TD. Did MB know LV said she’d gone dark? Did AB tell MB about what LV had told her about MB - either in Hawaii or after returning to Rexburg? Surely MB would have known she was in danger if she’d gone dark. Is that why she blurted things out about LV & CD to IP the day after they were married? (Which was just over a month after she got back from Hawaii.)

3) Would MB have been next because she knew too much?
LV was probably angry that Melani used her hitman without permission. Some women are so sensitive about stuff like that!
 
  • #855
I agree, exactly. Alex believed Chad, who prophesized that God was sending him the news that the end - the apocalypse, predicted in the Bible, was approaching. Chad declared he and Lori were destined to lead the 144,000, who something something - were very important, I'm not clear on the details.

In order to be part of the 144,000 chosen ones, you had to be married.

Alex's role was to be the protector, like chief of the armed forces for the 144,000, and that's why he needed lots of guns. There would be conflict coming from all those who were not going to heaven, but to the other place, hell.

All this appears to not be even mentioned in the trial, because religion. Leaving a great hole in the place where understanding motives would be, IMO.
My observation is that both sides are dancing around the religious issues and evidence. There has been testimony that Lori said she would be like Nephi, which as non-LDS has no meaning at all to me. I am surprised that statement was allowed without explanation and I am surprised no explanation was given. I think the prosecution is relying on enough jurors being LDS to explain the significance to other jurors during deliberations. I'm not sure I am entirely comfortable with this but it is what it is. I don't think it rises to the level of reversible error because she actually made the statement. But it suggests to me that the prosecution is expecting jurors to use their religious beliefs to evaluate the evidence and I don't think that is right.
 
  • #856
I think there's a likely layer in the sequence of events that has been overlooked. Just an idea, but to me it not only fits but also explains a lot that is otherwise puzzling. I didn't double-check the details, so some may be slightly off as to time/sequence, but I think the themes of impatient, frustration, lust, and goddess making demands have been in this story at the end, but overlooked in how they manifested.

HERE'S MY STORY.

Lori and Chad meet in the fall of 2018 and want each other. Or so they say. Both see something in the other that thrills them. But there are obstacles in the way to having a real relationship, both spouses and kids, to be removed.

So they plan to be together "some day." Chad? He promises and promises "Tammy is going to die." But Lori gets to work and kills Charles.

Once she has no hubby, Chad has her move close by, so she can be his side piece. But he's still married, still promising, but nothing changes.

So Lori makes sure her kids are killed, because Chad says he doesn't like being around them. Meanwhile, Chad is still married, his family still intact, Lori is still just the other woman and a side romance with a promise of something later. He does nothing. It's been almost a year since they met. But the phone sex is hot, the promises are impressive, the future is coming!

Chad makes more promises that Tammy will die. He has had visions!

But I think at some point, soon after Lori has killed her family while Chad has done nothing to be free of his, Lori says to Chad, "This is BS. I'm leaving town. Let me know when you are single."

In the time after JJ's death, didn't she go to Missouri, and to AZ, and to Hawaii? I think she was mad, impatient, and not letting him have her.

She goes to Missouri for a stay, putting pressure on Chad (and frustrating his lust) because she's not in ID for him to play with. There in Missouri, she tries to "cast" Tammy to death. Of course such nonsense doesn't work. She returns to ID, nothing new, Chad is still making promises.

So she tells Chad again, "I'm not sitting here while you do nothing." She goes to AZ. Then she calls Alex to kill Tammy since Chad has done nothing (utter failure).

She flits into ID, tells Chad, "I'm tired of waiting. I'm not gonna be your other woman. I'm a goddess, you said, and I deserve better. You've done nothing. I think I'll hit the beach in Hawaii in a new bikini. " Off she goes to Hawaii.

They stay in contact with phone sex (err, I mean portals), but she's getting more frustrated with the wait. (Isn't she entitled? Hasn't she done a lot, while he just sits?) But she's obsessed with getting what she wants, so in Hawaii she tries again to cast Tammy to death. All the while she is impatient, snippy, on edge, while Chad keeps promising her it will happen. She calls him all the time, ragging on him to do something, and also teasing him with promises of hot sex that drives him wild.

Finally, Chad takes action. He can't wait to figure out any sort of elaborate plan. So impulsively, one night when he and Tammy are alone, he simply smothers Tammy to death, and then the next morning claims she died in her sleep.
 
  • #857
My observation is that both sides are dancing around the religious issues and evidence. There has been testimony that Lori said she would be like Nephi, which as non-LDS has no meaning at all to me. I am surprised that statement was allowed without explanation and I am surprised no explanation was given. I think the prosecution is relying on enough jurors being LDS to explain the significance to other jurors during deliberations. I'm not sure I am entirely comfortable with this but it is what it is. I don't think it rises to the level of reversible error because she actually made the statement. But it suggests to me that the prosecution is expecting jurors to use their religious beliefs to evaluate the evidence and I don't think that is right.

1 This TRIAL has educated me on the significance of Nephi several times. I'm not LDS. But I get it. And I think those explanations were from witnesses. (There's been so much said in and about the testimony that I would have no idea how to find those notes again, and see for sure who said what. But that's my impression.)
2 A juror is always allowed to bring their own personal wealth of knowledge to bear on the case, in the process of deliberations. A juror with broader knowledge might or might not offer definitions for others, who knows, but they could. If I'm an attorney in the case, I'd rather make sure the jury has been provided MY definition, because there's a risk of no information, or unintentional misinformation, if I don't.
3 Trial "error" cannot be appealed and cause a reversal of the verdict unless it has been objected to, either by motion or objection, and been denied. And it would also have to be material enough (significant to the verdict) to matter. I recall no objection to the use of "Nephi" nor do I see its use or non-use being material to this case.
 
  • #858
…..
Pretty creepy Lori/Chad might have been trying to persuade Melani to turn against her children (iirc she was preoccupied with getting custody, after the attack on BB failed).

JMO
Yes, MB even got herself arrested for trespassing at her in-laws home in UT trying to get the kids about 2 weeks after returning from the Hawaii trip. AC had taken her to UT & he bailed her out the next day I think. And then she married IP about 2 weeks after that I believe.

It might be possible that the fall out was because MB would not just walk away from her kids as LV had also suggested to April in Hawaii that she needed to leave her family behind and come join the mission. I think when MB/MP told her new husband about all of this that she was scared of her aunt LV because she realized LV could target her the same way they had targeted BB and maybe she did realize she had been labeled dark.

But if so, I’m puzzled why she stayed with LV upon her return from Hawaii or maintained contact with her or continued to have contact with AC or anyone else in the group. I would have ran as far and fast as I could away from the whole lot of them.
 
  • #859
I think there's a likely layer in the sequence of events that has been overlooked. Just an idea, but to me it not only fits but also explains a lot that is otherwise puzzling. I didn't double-check the details, so some may be slightly off as to time/sequence, but I think the themes of impatient, frustration, lust, and goddess making demands have been in this story at the end, but overlooked in how they manifested.

HERE'S MY STORY.

Lori and Chad meet in the fall of 2018 and want each other. Or so they say. Both see something in the other that thrills them. But there are obstacles in the way to having a real relationship, both spouses and kids, to be removed.

So they plan to be together "some day." Chad? He promises and promises "Tammy is going to die." But Lori gets to work and kills Charles.

Once she has no hubby, Chad has her move close by, so she can be his side piece. But he's still married, still promising, but nothing changes.

So Lori makes sure her kids are killed, because Chad says he doesn't like being around them. Meanwhile, Chad is still married, his family still intact, Lori is still just the other woman and a side romance with a promise of something later. He does nothing. It's been almost a year since they met. But the phone sex is hot, the promises are impressive, the future is coming!

Chad makes more promises that Tammy will die. He has had visions!

But I think at some point, soon after Lori has killed her family while Chad has done nothing to be free of his, Lori says to Chad, "This is BS. I'm leaving town. Let me know when you are single."

In the time after JJ's death, didn't she go to Missouri, and to AZ, and to Hawaii? I think she was mad, impatient, and not letting him have her.

She goes to Missouri for a stay, putting pressure on Chad (and frustrating his lust) because she's not in ID for him to play with. There in Missouri, she tries to "cast" Tammy to death. Of course such nonsense doesn't work. She returns to ID, nothing new, Chad is still making promises.

So she tells Chad again, "I'm not sitting here while you do nothing." She goes to AZ. Then she calls Alex to kill Tammy since Chad has done nothing (utter failure).

She flits into ID, tells Chad, "I'm tired of waiting. I'm not gonna be your other woman. I'm a goddess, you said, and I deserve better. You've done nothing. I think I'll hit the beach in Hawaii in a new bikini. " Off she goes to Hawaii.

They stay in contact with phone sex (err, I mean portals), but she's getting more frustrated with the wait. (Isn't she entitled? Hasn't she done a lot, while he just sits?) But she's obsessed with getting what she wants, so in Hawaii she tries again to cast Tammy to death. All the while she is impatient, snippy, on edge, while Chad keeps promising her it will happen. She calls him all the time, ragging on him to do something, and also teasing him with promises of hot sex that drives him wild.

Finally, Chad takes action. He can't wait to figure out any sort of elaborate plan. So impulsively, one night when he and Tammy are alone, he simply smothers Tammy to death, and then the next morning claims she died in her sleep.
The main thing in this I see as a hitch is that Chad had been telling people all around him for ages that Tammy was going to die before she was fifty. Time was ticking down on that. Why tell anyone it at all, if you didn't know it was going to happen and make it look like you had special insight? The moment Tammy blows out the candles on her 50th, you have to tell everyone something good about why that didn't happen pretty fast, or they're not going to believe the next 'vision'.

I think Chad always planned to kill Tammy, since he started seeding it into people's minds that it was foreordained. Because if a healthy, happy, active woman under fifty dies suddenly and the guy she was married to for decades buries her in a couple of days, is demanding her life insurance immediately and has a new girlfriend just as fast, even in an LDS community, folks are going to be raising eyebrows and asking questions. But if you've been salting in the idea for some time that Tammy is doomed to die and you're sad about it but you've accepted it as inevitable... people just accept it. They shouldn't, because it's hinky as all get out, but this is a religion that places a LOT of weight on personal revelation. Chad would be seen as deeply spiritual and connected to God for having that kind of revelation and that it actually happened like he said it would, rather than the murderous, adulterous creep that he is.

MOO
 
  • #860
I 100% agree with you. But also, why would Chad have this happen when he was THERE? Why not when he was clearly at a conference or something?
IKR! <scratches head> :oops:
 
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