Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 16, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *Arrests* #52

[887sMtreme]

What I read leads me to understand that when a person is a "zombie," a dark spirit has taken over that person's body and the original spirit has been pushed out and can only exist in a limbo of some sort until the body dies, upon which time they are released and can move on to heaven.

That's convoluted thinking to be sure, but if CD convinced LV that it was really true (she'd have to be mentally deficient), it would stand to reason that she would no longer think of the "bodies" of the children as actually being her children and she might go along with killing them to release her own childrens' spirits.

Never having met LV, I cannot say if she really believed that, and MG is unclear as to whether she thinks LV believed that, although MG found it to be suspicious teaching.

This is such a complex case and so many people are involved in small or large ways that I wonder if we will ever get a good understanding of what the players really thought. JMOO

That is exactly how I understand it.

 

[887sMtreme]

Very good point.

In addition to Joseph Smith, I am a generally aware that the title of the head of the Mormon church is "Prophet and Revelator". Thus, mainstream Mormonism seems to have a tradition of special revelations extending beyond the founder.

<snipped for focus>

In short, there could be two very different models for how the group functioned:

B. A looser "coalition model" where people who share general interests gather. Autonomous members then place various beliefs on a spiritual "buffet table". Leaders get to place larger portions in more prominent positions.

Members then sample the portions and accept the ideas that appeal to them. Though criticizing another member's "dish" is not a good idea, one does not need to accept every teaching.

Ah, what they call "cafeteria benefits" in human resources lingo. That might be true when prophetic leaders of some new group are just starting out, gathering and weeding, with curious followers themselves not yet certain they belong. But at some point, probably pretty early on, the commitment becomes all-or-nothing. The stakes (no pun intended in the present case) are too high to allow for half-hearted followers.

 

[GiGi4277]

Does anyone happen to know the hotel Charles was staying at the night before he was killed? We are working on a video breaking down that timeline of the day he was shot.

 

[GiGi4277]

Does anyone happen to know the hotel Charles was staying at the night before he was killed? We are working on a video breaking down that timeline of the day he was shot.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Veteran of 2 juries myself, not everyone is completely open & honest with the Court during selection....

Most do accept the responsibility set by the court.

JMHE YMMV LRR

I cringe sometimes when in a scenario of a high profile case that voire dire is broadcast and some may know my voice. For some awful trials, they might ask things in voire dire that I would never ever ever want to answer under oath. At least from following trials here for years, I would know to ask for an in camera voire dire exclusion so my answers to such which might be very embarrassing were never on the internet forever for folks to hear.

MOO

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Lori at one time believed that Tylee was a reincarnated version of her dead sister, so yes, IMO it's possible that she believed in zombies.

Or perhaps "Lori went with the con game of stating magical things as the murderous conspirators knew this was a way around the law ?"

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Very good point.

In addition to Joseph Smith, I am a generally aware that the title of the head of the Mormon church is "Prophet and Revelator". Thus, mainstream Mormonism seems to have a tradition of special revelations extending beyond the founder.

In addition, I think an earlier rash of murders connected to the Mexico branch of Mormon fundamentalism might have been "justified" by the leader claiming to have continued revelations that demanded violence.

In short, there could be two very different models for how the group functioned:

A. A hierarchial model where CD and LVD are seen as bonafide visionaries by the group. Once CD and LVD are accepted as "visionaries", the affirmation by the group of all "teachings", including zombies, is mandatory.

B. A looser "coalition model" where people who share general interests gather. Autonomous members then place various beliefs on a spiritual "buffet table". Leaders get to place larger portions in more prominent positions.

Members then sample the portions and accept the ideas that appeal to them. Though criticizing another member's "dish" is not a good idea, one does not need to accept every teaching.

Yet many think there were only 7 or more that bought into such as to the children and zombies?

How many now are on the net exclaiming "they were zombies, we all know this and we want to testify to such!"

Drag the butts into court and let's hear them.

 

[Cryptic]

Ah, what they call "cafeteria benefits" in human resources lingo. That might be true when prophetic leaders of some new group are just starting out, gathering and weeding, with curious followers themselves not yet certain they belong. But at some point, probably pretty early on, the commitment becomes all-or-nothing. The stakes (no pun intended in the present case) are too high to allow for half-hearted followers.

I think you have a very good insight as to the dynamics of an extremist group.

I initially favored a "buffet" model because years ago, I knew a spiritually curious group led by a "first among equals" type guide. Their spiritual buffet table's main course was evangelical Protestantism. Smaller dishes included messianic Judaism and self improvement psych. Light portions of political conspiracy and UFOs were dessert items.

The group, however, never went extremist. Rather, members were spiritual dabblers that liked to socialize at their homes and at a good choice of restaurants. Members would come and go. The size and placement of buffet items could vary depending on who was present. On other occasions, the spiritual buffet was not even set up ( I liked those occasions).

But.... as you accurately pointed out extremist groups are very different. Very quickly, the simply curious are weeded out. Spiritual buffet tables are shut down and the forced feedings begin.

 

[indicolite22]

Or perhaps "Lori went with the con game of stating magical things as the murderous conspirators knew this was a way around the law ?"

But it's not a way around the law. Believing in zombies won't save them from murder charges.

 

[Cryptic]

I think A is how Chad's mini cult operated and B is how PAP operated.

A good insight and I think you are correct.

There could well be a larger umbrella group operating under model "B" (loose coalition of like minded, has a spiritual buffet table)

And associated with the larger umbrella group, a smaller, far more uhmm…. "select" group operating under model "A" (hierarchical, mandatory acceptance of all teachings from the leader, no buffet table- just forced feedings).

 

[Diddian]

If MG knew they would be killed, why did she and Lori discuss leaving JJ with Kay after he was declared a zombie? MG was told soon after that the handover actually took place. IMO Lori and Chad ultimately didn't trust MG with the truth about the kids. Lori claimed on the recorded call (and in an earlier call) with MG that JJ had to be moved for his safety.

ITA. And the fact that they lied to MG when Lori told her JJ was with Kay and also lied to MG when they both suggested JJ was with others for his protection and that they couldn't tell MG or others where for the protection of MG and others indicates that they were aware JJ's murder was criminal and so were concealing it. That is, regardless of the phony teachings about end times, estate hierarchies and light/dark assignments, zombies, and the need to leave loved ones behind for "the gathering," these two knew exactly what they were doing, that it was illegal and wrong, and that even those who had been close to them would consider it illegal and wrong.

 

[DI_Isokawa]

Does anyone happen to know the hotel Charles was staying at the night before he was killed? We are working on a video breaking down that timeline of the day he was shot.

I have not been able to determine that. It is known to Chandler PD because the staff was supposedly interviewed and shocked to learn Charles was dead. There doesn't seem to be any obvious choices based on distance to the house. I'd suggest asking Justin Lum through his FB page, he might know.

 

[indicolite22]

Yet many think there were only 7 or more that bought into such as to the children and zombies?

Number 7 came from Nate Eaton in a radio interview after he spoke with MG.

Let's pretend that Chad and Lori managed to gather several couples for their 144k before their campaign was interrupted. Let's say that Chad explained his entire doctrine to them, including multiple probations (their past lives), dark/light ratings (of their families) and the concept of zombies (not necessarily applied to their family members). It would be interesting to know if he ever declared anyone outside of his, Lori's and MP's extended families a zombie. I'm not counting tens of thousands anonymous zombies that he and Lori killed while praying or the two detectives who were merely dark.

How many now are on the net exclaiming "they were zombies, we all know this and we want to testify to such!"

Drag the butts into court and let's hear them.

Nate Eaton interviewed a couple of people who got out of fringe groups. I have not heard of anyone admitting to having been gathered by Chad, but they could be out there.

 

[indicolite22]

I have not been able to determine that. It is known to Chandler PD because the staff was supposedly interviewed and shocked to learn Charles was dead. There doesn't seem to be any obvious choices based on distance to the house. I'd suggest asking Justin Lum through his FB page, he might know.

In a Fox 10 article it is mentioned that Charles was staying in a hotel in Gilbert (Lori's house was in Chandler). Their source was an ex employee.

Lawyers: Husband of Lori Vallow made prediction on who will kill him months before he died

 

[DI_Isokawa]

In a Fox 10 article it is mentioned that Charles was staying in a hotel in Gilbert (Lori's house was in Chandler). Their source was an ex employee.

Lawyers: Husband of Lori Vallow made prediction on who will kill him months before he died

Well, there's a couple in Gilbert in the vicinity of JJ's school and a couple in Gilbert in the vicinity of the house. If it's a Fox 10 story Lum should know.

 

[GiGi4277]

I have not been able to determine that. It is known to Chandler PD because the staff was supposedly interviewed and shocked to learn Charles was dead. There doesn't seem to be any obvious choices based on distance to the house. I'd suggest asking Justin Lum through his FB page, he might know.

Thank you! We found it! Tru Hotel by Hilton!

 

[JujuColumbo]

Lori getting rid of JJ's service dog in August should have been a huge red flag to everyone. Supposedly the dog comforted JJ so he could sleep all night. What did Lori tell MG, or for that matter, how could she explain this to Tylee? You just don't give up a service dog because you are moving, IMO. Lori must have been an amazing liar and story teller to get away with so much for so long.

Yes, she was an amazing liar because she practiced it for decades..

 

[887sMtreme]

I cringe sometimes when in a scenario of a high profile case that voire dire is broadcast and some may know my voice. For some awful trials, they might ask things in voire dire that I would never ever ever want to answer under oath.
<snipped for focus>
MOO

That’s a good point, dixiegirl, especially in a small town where local eavesdroppers on a broadcast voir dire will recognize your name and hang on your answers.

 

[Trebor5591]

At that point in time, Lori was MG's very best friend and I think she lied out of loyalty, believing in the stories that Lori had fabricated.
I like to think that very few people would go along knowingly with the cold blooded, premeditated murder of children. That's why this case is becoming so infamous. It is rare. Just my opinion.

I just have to jump in on the discussion on MG and how & why she lied to LE about JJ. IMO anyone who lies to LE about anything is demonstrating they are not to be trusted. I bet this lady knows more about JJ's death than she is saying.

 

[Clair Louise]

I just have to jump in on the discussion on MG and how & why she lied to LE about JJ. IMO anyone who lies to LE about anything is demonstrating they are not to be trusted. I bet this lady knows more about JJ's death than she is saying.

I agree.