Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 16, Tammy Daybell, 49, Sept & Oct 2019 *Arrests* #58

[LinasK]

How is it legal to switch accounts to be paid into.

It's not. It's another crime that she may or may not be charged with. She stole their money.

 

[LinasK]

Brief psychotic disorder - Wikipedia.

Disclaimer: I believe she knows right from wrong, and her psychological status is not an excuse for her actions

Lori seems to have a Personality Disorder-Narcissistic, Sociopathic , etc. At minimum, having a Personality Disorder means having a weak foundation as a person, so even more likely to crumble under stress.
It could be a Brief Psychotic Disorder. Even so, that diagnosis only gives her a month or so

Her attitude in the beauty pageants that she participated in struck me as a narcissist, yet she accused Charles of being the one who wanted expensive vacations...

 

[BeachSky]

How is it legal to switch accounts to be paid into.

I guess LVD justified it thus :
Tylee was a minor, LVD was the (cough) parent
Or possibly LVD lied & said Tylee had a new bank account to send it to...

MOO

 

[Midwestmom2019]

I have always been amazed at the judicial system and determinations of "incompetence". A woman, who is able to manage independent living, driving, all other activities of daily living. Yet, the attorney of record wants a "competency hearing"?

It’s not what happened then. It’s pretty obvious she was competent back then. The question is right now. Can she assist counsel in preparation for the trial and trial itself. Does she understand right now what she’s charged with or has she had a breakdown while she was being held and now is not functioning?

 

[mickey2942]

It’s not what happened then. It’s pretty obvious she was competent back then. The question is right now. Can she assist counsel in preparation for the trial and trial itself. Does she understand right now what she’s charged with or has she had a breakdown while she was being held and now is not functioning?

She knows what she is charged with. This is criminal manipulation at it's finest.

 

[LinasK]

She knows what she is charged with. This is criminal manipulation at it's finest.

But she still has to go through the arraignment process and formally have the charges read to her and indicate that she understands them. It's required by law.

 

[Kemug]

Does anything else think that Larry could be Thomas Markle's twin? (Sorry, I digress)

 

[RickshawFan]

The prosecution clearly needs Janine DeMarte (prosecution psychologist in the Arias trial) to deconstruct the Vallow nonsense.

 

[SuziQ]

Perhaps now they will now that Chandler finally decided to actually investigate Charles's murder (which he tried to warn them about) rather than take the word of a "cute" murder suspect who giggles and twirls her hair at them.

And they cleaned up the blood from a crime scene for her! Holy cr**. It is like she casts a spell on every male she meets. I want to know the sex of the shrink who did her evaluation.

 

[BeckyF]

It’s not what happened then. It’s pretty obvious she was competent back then. The question is right now. Can she assist counsel in preparation for the trial and trial itself. Does she understand right now what she’s charged with or has she had a breakdown while she was being held and now is not functioning?

It’s a ruse. She’s been in jail for over a year. She knows what she is charged with. She is a master manipulator.

 

[Boxer]

And they cleaned up the blood from a crime scene for her! Holy cr**. It is like she casts a spell on every male she meets. I want to know the sex of the shrink who did her evaluation.

Apparently wasn't a shrink.
It was a
psychologist.

 

[Boxer]

That's really awful!

MOO similar to ordering rings before Tammy's death.

 

[fuzzybutter]

And it took forever to prosecute them. That is the depressing part.

A close friend of mine was murdered by her mentally ill brother on Christmas Eve 2019. He was in custody within 3 hours and has been incarcerated ever since—he bounces between the county jail and state mental hospital. He is a diagnosed schizophrenic who responds to medication. He doesn’t like medication so he doesn’t take it. His attorney asked for a competency review at his arraignment. He was ruled incompetent and he refused to voluntarily take any medication, so eventually the judge ordered the drugs administered one way or another (involuntarily if necessary) At the same time his attorney submitted the judge’s involuntary drug order to the State Appeals court. There is no forced medication case law in my state. Waiting for the appeals court has been, at last count, over a year. The new judge has decided to proceed, until when and if the appeals court rules. But still there hasn’t even been a preliminary hearing, not a peep about a trial date.
Aside from these issues the case has lots physical evidence and seems cut dried—he called 911 and there is video of him disposing of the gun.
Initially the sluggish movement, that really seems to not advance the process was extremely painful for friends and family.
We have now calmed down somewhat with realization that he will never get of custody. He will always be in county jail, a state prison, or a forensic unit at a state mental hospital. I find comfort in this, initially it was eating me alive.

So this why I am less concerned about how long it takes for Lori to get to trial. She will never be free and wherever she is, it will be a miserable existence. And I think it will take several years to come to trial between the competency issues and the possibility that it becomes a capital case. It was 4 or 5 years before Jodi Arias went to trial.

 

[indicolite22]

Interview Justin Lum did with Zac Cox, Adam’s boy. I’ve not had time to listen to it yet.

There are quite a few new details in that video. For example, every Lori's family member except for Adam and Zac was on Lori's side before AND after Charles was killed. Tylee wasn't allowed to speak to Zac afterwards. MBP was monitoring BB's phone before that to prevent contact with Charles. Charles asked Adam to record Lori's crazy beliefs and give the recording to her bishop so she would get excommunicated and lose temple access (she was spending 8 hours a day there). Charles believed that it would make her snap out of it. Adam came to town for that a day before the murder. He and Zac learned about Charles' death from a news article after being unable to reach him on his phone for two days. They were afraid for their own lives while staying with SS. After what happened to Charles, they believed they could be next.

Alex was into podcasts and Chad's books as well. He offered Zac $100 to read one of Chad's books. Once Alex told their bishop that Lori saw Jesus in person and Lori got mad at him for that.

 

[squareandrabbet]

There are quite a few new details in that video. For example, every Lori's family member except for Adam and Zac was on Lori's side before AND after Charles was killed. Tylee wasn't allowed to speak to Zac afterwards. Charles asked Adam to record Lori's crazy beliefs and give the recording to her bishop so she would get excommunicated and lose temple access (she was spending 8 hours a day there). Charles believed that it would make her snap out of it. Adam came to town for that a day before the murder. He and Zac learned about Charles' death from a news article after being unable to reach him on his phone for two days. They were afraid for their own lives while staying with SS.

Important emendation on the last sentence I think: Zac said they were specifically afraid that Alex and/or Lori would show up to kill them; which is worth stressing due to the nightmarish switch it illustrates in their previous mostly normal relationships with each other; and I do mean this as the stuff of literal nightmares.

Other additional information: Zac said that he believes Lori, while at Barry and Janis's house, had access to Charles' unlocked cell phone for multiple days; and that Lori most likely merrily deleted multiple items off said cell phone which she wanted to conceal (I think Kay has previously admitted that Charles never locked said phone, as well as telling a similar story. I am unclear as to whether or not Kay and Zac ever met in order to consult and piece these two stories together). This also enabled Lori et al to snoop at length through Charles' phone discovering the text message exchanges between Charles, Zac, AdC and Brandon "conspiring against her", which so enraged her. He also seemed to have pretty good assurance that Melani P.-then-B. read Brandon's texts on the same topics as well (the hinted context seemed to imply this might be some sort of spousal accountability doohickey on Mel's part); and that these were the referenced communications Lori would later cast up to Rexburg LE as the "my brother (AdC) wanting to kill me for my life insurance". (Zac assures Justin that neither he nor Adam have any idea if there are any insurance policies on Lori's life; and points out that this is yet another instance of Lori flipping "things I am doing to Charles" into "things Charles is doing to me".)

 

[Riverdoc]

Okay, I feel compelled a bit to tease apart a few mental health and psychiatric forensic concepts.

First of all, there are defined and treatable psychiatric illnesses and at the other end of the spectrum there is bad behavior that has been reinforced/rewarded over time (thus, persists because it works).

Youu can’t be diagnosed with a psychiatric illness UNLESS it substantially interferes with interpersonal and/or occupational functioning. Everybody has a right to be quirky and make poor decisions.

When CV was trying to force Lori into involuntary psychiatric care, the bar was high. The statutes differ by state, but what they all have in common is that there has to be a psychiatric illness that is presenting at a time of acute imminent (like next 24-48 hours) risk of medically serious bodily harm to oneself or others, that can be modified by psychiatric treatment (as opposed to straight up predatory behavior). A person may well have psychiatric illness that would benefit from treatment, but if they are not acutely dangerous, they cannot be forced into an involuntary psychiatric hold. This is what I believe likely happened in AZ. MOO

Now “competency” is a legal term, not a medical term, and can only be determined by a judge, typically a probate judge, like for a guardianship hearing. Psychiatric health care workers of varying credentials (probably also varies by state) can raise a question of “capacity”. Capacity refers to someone’s ability to understand their circumstance, choices, and what are the possible outcomes of each choice. They don’t have to make a WISE choice, they just have to demonstrate understanding of what the choices are and the possible outcomes.

A person determined medically to lack capacity can be referred to a court for a judge to determine competency. Typically the person believes they DO have capacity and the court assigns them an independent evaluation and defense attorney. If a judge determines someone to be incompetent, they can do several remedies like; assign a temporary or permanent guardian, give permission for involuntary medical treatment, or other intervention to restore a person’s ability to understand their circumstances and choices.

It would be weird for someone to say “hi, I’m Jane Doe, and I’m incompetent “. It would also be interesting to see the documents of the psychiatric triage evaluation in AZ (it would have been triage, ie determine least restrictive setting for care) to see if she could express understanding THEN of what concerns were raised and her explanation/understanding of why these were not of acute importance and/or require immediate inpatient psychiatric care. I am guessing she sang a different tune to the psychologist is Idaho.

I also want to reassure folks that a forensic psychiatric commitment to restore competency to stand trial is in a facility typically operated by the state for that purpose, it is NOT in a regular psychiatric hospital. Everybody is facing charges or has become too psychiatrically ill to be cared for in prison, because psychiatric care is routinely available in regular prisons for criminals with co-morbid mental illnesses. A forensic unit is VERY secure and probably pretty unpleasant given that the population is acutely seriously psychiatrically ill. Better than death row, but worse than the county jail for sure.

 

[indicolite22]

You have got to watch this li e stream tonight

They were talking about receiving information (not confirmed at this point) that Lori had schizophrenia.

 

[Nosurprise]

Just a hypothetical question. What if a defense attorney that is over their head for the alleged charges of their client. The client is Evil and is successful manipulating person. The state doesn't have insanity plea. But you have to be competent to go for with proceedings. Does that attorney say to client..let's go this route of mental illness and it can delay things for a long time so I can file for more frivolous actions where others have to do my job for me? JMO.. just a question

 

[Hoosgirl]

This article had some interesting bits about Lori and competence: After 2 major developments in case against Lori Vallow Daybell, what's next?

A licensed clinical psychologist assessed Vallow Daybell in March and found her not competent to proceed with the case. In a rare move, prosecutors contested that finding.

"I have not, in a mere 49 years of practicing law as a prosecutor and defense lawyer, seen a prosecutor object to this kind of finding and this kind of report,” said Dave Leroy, a former Idaho attorney general, former Idaho lieutenant governor, and current private lawyer.

...

During the psychological assessment, they would have looked to see if Vallow Daybell was aware of her surroundings, could examine the facts of the case, and help her lawyer prepare for trial.

"Someplace in that mental process, according to the psychologist, Ms. Vallow has broken down in terms of assisting her lawyer in preparing for trial,” said Leroy.

...

Leroy said one of the reasons it’s not typical to contest the 90-day rehabilitation period is because setting the new hearing to contest the findings can take just as long. At that hearing, the state will be able to cross-examine the psychologist and bring in other evidence, which could mean another psychologist's report.

Remember, that state expert will not have direct access to Lori Vallow. And remember that the psychologist who did have that access was from the state Department of Health and Welfare; it wasn't somebody chosen by the defense," Leroy said.

Leroy pointed out that there are some ethical issues that come up when a mental health professional gives opinions about someone they have not personally interviewed, and it’s not likely the prosecution would give another expert access to her.

...

Leroy expects the judge will set the new hearing in the next 30 days or so. For now, Vallow Daybell will be transferred to a state mental health facility.

More at link.

 

[indicolite22]

More from Zac's interview.

After moving back to Arizona from Hawaii in 2017, Lori spoke to Zac during spring break about Chad's and others' books she was reading, as well as listening to JR's podcast. She spent a lot of time in the temple and even worked there on Thursdays.

Lori told Zac at the end of January 2019 that Charles was dead and that there was a zombie living inside of him. Beforehand she notified her family that she was in a big fight with Charles and that he was having an affair. She instructed the family not to answer his calls.

Before the zombie accusation Charles talked to Zac about Lori's beliefs. They agreed that neither shared her beliefs but Charles was okay with it because she was still living a regular life, including being a mother and wife. Charles told Zac to nod his head and keep Lori happy.

It looks like things were slowly building up within Lori and nobody suspected (at first) it could lead to tragedy.