Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 #8

[tresir2012]

Thank you for tagging me!

In regards to the bold-- I believe that is the reporter, Adam Herberts' own wording, not a quote from police, correct? Someone correct me if I'm mistaken. I have yet to see LE make a statement on Joseph Ryan's death. If JR's death is really not part of the current investigation then I think there is another suspicious death that happened before Tammy that we are not aware of yet.
MOO.

Did he have life insurance I wonder. Did Colby and Tylee keep in contact with him?

 

[Colorado303]

Something has been bugging me about the Vegas marriages and even Lori and Chad's marriage, and what they say about motivations. Maybe someone can help me flesh it out.

I think the marriages may point much more heavily to money/legal motivation than to "cult cleansing"/must marry someone in the fold, or anything else religion-related. And, in turn, if the marriages were more money/legality motivated than religiously motivated, maybe the disappearance of the kids is less likely to be religiously-motivated, too. I don't know if that helps at all narrowing down where the kids could be, but at least it gives me more hope they are alive, not dead in some cult-mission-from-god-these-kids-are-dark-spirits scenario.

In LDS theology, a marriage--a legal, civil, piece-of-paper marriage--is an earthly thing "of man." A temple sealing is what is important and focused on. It's a saving ordinance, which means you can't get to (the highest degree of) heaven without it. A temple sealing for a live couple (as opposed to proxy sealings for the dead) is most often both a legal marriage and religious ordinance. The temple sealer is a legal officiant. But some couples are first married outside the temple in a regular wedding ceremony, and later are sealed in the temple. In that case, the sealing ceremony is just that: a sealing, not a marriage.

Now, we know Chad et. al. had one foot in the mainstream church and one foot in the fringe/possibly his own church. As such, maybe he holds no stock in the regular Mormon temple and the sealings there. But then you see a lot of these fringe groups performing their own marriages, and bypassing civil marriages--civil marriages aren't what "count" anyway.

But there is some reason(s) that this group of supposed anti-government religious fanatic cultists wanted government civil marriages. I can only think it's because they wanted some advantage(s) that civil marriages provide, and they obviously wanted them *quickly.* So, what advantages??? Community assets? Automatic beneficiary in case of death? Spousal privilege barring testifying against spouse (which has exceptions that vary from state to state)? Something else I'm not thinking of? Health insurance ?!?!? (I don't think anyone but MB's spouse is likely to have a company-sponsored plan.)

The other reason for a civil marriage is because it makes one look more above-board to one's children/family/friends. But then, it would be just as easy to lie and say a marriage had been performed out of state, even if it hadn't. I guess since we still don't have a record of the Daybell-Vallow marriage, that could still be the case. Also, if one is still holding to LDS standards, a marriage (civil or temple) takes having sex from the realm of grievous sin to "go for it" (sex outside of marriage is a sin). Or maybe they just *wanted* to actually be married, and since they couldn't go to the temple, they did Vegas (or Hawaii or wherever, for Chad and Lori). Chad and Lori may have been able to get married in the temple, actually, but not likely for Melanie, don't know about Zulema or Alex. Women can't be sealed to more than one person at a time (civil divorce doesn't dissolve a sealing), and you have to answer affirmatively to certain behavioral/belief standards to go in the temple.

Just my ramblings that I'm not feeling able to put to words. Does anyone get what I am trying to say? Why these quick civil marriages that don't hold religious weight?

All of the above is MOO.

This is a really good point! And one I hadn’t thought of before. Why would these people who have evident distain for the gov’t/LE go out of their way to legalize 3 marriages in a very short period of time? Probably something other than not testifying against each other—IMO I doubt the fear of perjury would keep them up at night.

What do you need a marriage certificate for?

Not life insurance—you can designate any beneficiary you want as long as you’re not married. Health insurance could make sense but as @UnknownSleuth points out it’s unlikely one in each couple has something other than free market/Obamacare. Making parents happy, making sex legit, legitimizing offspring, none of those seem to fit here IMO.

One that might is access to a dead/incapacitated spouse’s property or assets. But I doubt they all married these new people only to kill them. You think they’d pick richer people. (And ironically AC’s new wife, not AC, gets that benefit).

I agree the sudden legal marriages are a significant clue if we can figure out why.

I also think who they chose to marry may provide insight. We can’t really sleuth Melani and Alex’s new spouses here, but I wonder if these couples had been together for a while (perhaps secretly) or if the couplings happened suddenly. Does anybody know?

 

[UnknownSleuth]

I thought I saw the Joe Ryan postmortem examination on here a week ago as well as on FB, but apparently that wasn't the case and it was just on FB. I agree it isn't an autopsy. With Adam Herbets releasing this without any sourced/quoted comment from law enforcement, I'm going to take it as his own words until I see otherwise. Perhaps someone sent it to him from FB, highlighted already. FYI, a family member of Joe's made some comments on social media about the examination/him/his death/his relationship with Lori/his relationship with Tylee/his relationship with Colby/his childhood. You could find them if you want. Since we can't discuss that kind of stuff I guess I will make some observations of my own.

Judging by Joe Ryan's LinkedIn photo he was a fit and muscular man but doesn't look as tall as the report says he is. So, who knows how accurate his BMI. He also had some high stress jobs per LinkedIn and had custody battles that took a financial toll and likely an emotional toll, on top of a rough childhood. All of this could lead to a high strung individual who is unhealthy in more ways than one.

We see from the court filings we've pulled, and comments from at least one VI, that like with most divorces and custody battles, there was a lot of he-said, she-said between Joe and Lori. As easy as it is for us to look negatively at anything Lori says or does, VI(s) have corroborated some of the she-said, and they're not the only one(s). The whole Joe Ryan situation is pretty murky.

(That doesn't mean it was okay of Lori to sic Alex on Joe.)

The Cox family member on the Gray Hughes video says that Lori got $75,000 when Joe died. They didn't say Tylee got it, they said Lori got it. I don't know if they know what they are talking about, or if this is accurate at all. From what I can see, Colby Ryan was living with this family member or at least in their town for a couple of years, so they may have had good insider knowledge of the circumstance. Or not. Family member speculated that this is what gave Lori the idea of getting rid of Charles. In other words, that Lori didn't have anything to do with Joe's death, but that it set in motion the other events. Again, speculation, both the family member's and mine.

 

[tresir2012]

Something has been bugging me about the Vegas marriages and even Lori and Chad's marriage, and what they say about motivations. Maybe someone can help me flesh it out.

I think the marriages may point much more heavily to money/legal motivation than to "cult cleansing"/must marry someone in the fold, or anything else religion-related. And, in turn, if the marriages were more money/legality motivated than religiously motivated, maybe the disappearance of the kids is less likely to be religiously-motivated, too. I don't know if that helps at all narrowing down where the kids could be, but at least it gives me more hope they are alive, not dead in some cult-mission-from-god-these-kids-are-dark-spirits scenario.

In LDS theology, a marriage--a legal, civil, piece-of-paper marriage--is an earthly thing "of man." A temple sealing is what is important and focused on. It's a saving ordinance, which means you can't get to (the highest degree of) heaven without it. A temple sealing for a live couple (as opposed to proxy sealings for the dead) is most often both a legal marriage and religious ordinance. The temple sealer is a legal officiant. But some couples are first married outside the temple in a regular wedding ceremony, and later are sealed in the temple. In that case, the sealing ceremony is just that: a sealing, not a marriage.

Now, we know Chad et. al. had one foot in the mainstream church and one foot in the fringe/possibly his own church. As such, maybe he holds no stock in the regular Mormon temple and the sealings there. But then you see a lot of these fringe groups performing their own marriages, and bypassing civil marriages--civil marriages aren't what "count" anyway.

But there is some reason(s) that this group of supposed anti-government religious fanatic cultists wanted government civil marriages. I can only think it's because they wanted some advantage(s) that civil marriages provide, and they obviously wanted them *quickly.* So, what advantages??? Community assets? Automatic beneficiary in case of death? Spousal privilege barring testifying against spouse (which has exceptions that vary from state to state)? Something else I'm not thinking of? Health insurance ?!?!? (I don't think anyone but MB's spouse is likely to have a company-sponsored plan.)

The other reason for a civil marriage is because it makes one look more above-board to one's children/family/friends. But then, it would be just as easy to lie and say a marriage had been performed out of state, even if it hadn't. I guess since we still don't have a record of the Daybell-Vallow marriage, that could still be the case. Also, if one is still holding to LDS standards, a marriage (civil or temple) takes having sex from the realm of grievous sin to "go for it" (sex outside of marriage is a sin). Or maybe they just *wanted* to actually be married, and since they couldn't go to the temple, they did Vegas (or Hawaii or wherever, for Chad and Lori). Chad and Lori may have been able to get married in the temple, actually, but not likely for Melanie, don't know about Zulema or Alex. Women can't be sealed to more than one person at a time (civil divorce doesn't dissolve a sealing), and you have to answer affirmatively to certain behavioral/belief standards to go in the temple.

Just my ramblings that I'm not feeling able to put to words. Does anyone get what I am trying to say? Why these quick civil marriages that don't hold religious weight?

All of the above is MOO.

Both Melani and Lori have custody battles on the horizon. If they are married and can show they are in a stable relationship with husbands who have or have raised their own children they may stand a better chance of getting custody or at least joint custody. Assuming the attempted murder and suspicious deaths are resolved. Even if the deaths end up as not criminally motivated, the murder attempt does appear to implicate the Lori/Alex/Melani trio. MOO.

 

[squareandrabbet]

Just curious, if an LDS member is traveling can they attend services at a local Ward as a guest? If so, is that common or do most people forego services until they get back home?

You can go anytime anywhere as a guest. I would say 50/50. Depends on your time but no big deal if you don't.

Aside: in many of these "cultlike" situations, one of the original harbingers of trouble on the future horizon is that "regular" services in the standard religion just won't "do" for the apostate cult; and thus is one of the first things to go in the cultish worldview.

Isolation is the goal, not fellowship (Jonestown; Waco, etc.); because isolation fosters the echo chamber. Interaction with the mainstream members of the religion would run the risk of snapping them out of it.

 

[jjenny]

One has to have live children in order to have a custody battle on the horizon.

 

[Jethro4WS]

This is purely speculation but what I read into that is that she wants her kids and had already retained the attorney. Given her likely obvious guilt and minimal fine (she's probably paying more for the attorney to defend it), she just wants it behind her as she fights for her kids in Utah (assuming they are there). I don't think a family law attorney would be my first call from lockup anywhere so there must be more to it.

Not sure what she is doing. The case is in Arizona. She can't just start a new one in another state. As it is, just last week she filed a response to the petition to stop paying spousal support. Since BB has custody there isn't a reason to pay her anything.

 

[FindingJoLee]

And if this was how Lori felt then it is particularly evil to want your ex, the father of your children, dead. The method doesn't really matter in law, i don't think, but it would still have to be proved. Eg. With CV the self defence has seemingly been accepted but the investigation is still open. As you say, with the cremation of JR, not much can now be done unless the 11 year old tissue samples could be of use. MOO.

I think a lot of people say things they don't mean like "I wish he was dead" or "I'm gonna kill her" when they are involved in a hostile divorce and/or custody battle. But most of them don't try to end their problems by actually assaulting or killing their ex or having someone who is willing to do it.

Other people say those things and mean them.

The source of Lori saying that Tylee died years ago is the Dec 30th Press Release put out by the Rexburg Police Dept: Rexburg Police Department

Quoting from that press release:

We strongly believe that Joshua and Tylee’s lives are in danger. We are aware that in the weeks after Tammy Daybell’s death, Lori Vallow/Daybell and Chad Daybell told witnesses that Lori’s daughter had died a year before the death of her father, which is untrue. Around that same time Chad told another witness that Lori had no minor children.

--------------------

We don't know who Lori told this to but I believe police know. In an interview sometime after this press release a LEO (I'm thinking either the Fremont County Sheriff or the Rexburg Sheriff?) said Lori told "family" that Tylee died years ago. I looked but can't find that quote about it being family now -- maybe someone else knows which sheriff said it and where. Otherwise, consider it my opinion only that Lori told family members (possibly Chad's family IMHO) that Tylee died before her father.

Thank you! That makes sense. Her own family and friends would know that Tylee was very much alive until at least July 11th, but Chad’s family probably wouldn’t have any reason to question (at least not in the moment) her claim that Tylee died two years prior.

 

[indicolite22]

The Cox family member on the Gray Hughes video says that Lori got $75,000 when Joe died. They didn't say Tylee got it, they said Lori got it. I don't know if they know what they are talking about, or if this is accurate at all. From what I can see, Colby Ryan was living with this family member or at least in their town for a couple of years, so they may have had good insider knowledge of the circumstance. Or not. Family member speculated that this is what gave Lori the idea of getting rid of Charles. In other words, that Lori didn't have anything to do with Joe's death, but that it set in motion the other events. Again, speculation, both the family member's and mine.

The same family member also claims that Chad increased Tammy's life insurance policy nine months before she died. How do people learn about such things?

 

[indicolite22]

Not sure what she is doing. The case is in Arizona. She can't just start a new one in another state. As it is, just last week she filed a response to the petition to stop paying spousal support. Since BB has custody there isn't a reason to pay her anything.

I wonder if Melani's actions are independent or if she is still influenced by Lori's cult, now that Lori is in hiding.

 

[indicolite22]

Thank you! That makes sense. Her own family and friends would know that Tylee was very much alive until at least July 11th, but Chad’s family probably wouldn’t have any reason to question (at least not in the moment) her claim that Tylee died two years prior.

IMO Chad's family would not volunteer that info to the police. They didn't seem too cooperative when LE raided Chad's family home.

 

[jjenny]

IMO Chad's family would not volunteer that info to the police. They didn't seem too cooperative when LE raided Chad's family home.

But they are lots of people in Chad's family. His children is one thing, but he also has siblings. His brother issued a statement that suggests brother is very unhappy with the situation (was not happy when he found out Chad remarried so soon after Tammy died), and wants Chad to cooperate. So some people could very well be talking to the police.

 

[FindingJoLee]

This is a really good point! And one I hadn’t thought of before. Why would these people who have evident distain for the gov’t/LE go out of their way to legalize 3 marriages in a very short period of time? Probably something other than not testifying against each other—IMO I doubt the fear of perjury would keep them up at night.

What do you need a marriage certificate for?

Not life insurance—you can designate any beneficiary you want as long as you’re not married. Health insurance could make sense but as @UnknownSleuth points out it’s unlikely one in each couple has something other than free market/Obamacare. Making parents happy, making sex legit, legitimizing offspring, none of those seem to fit here IMO.

One that might is access to a dead/incapacitated spouse’s property or assets. But I doubt they all married these new people only to kill them. You think they’d pick richer people. (And ironically AC’s new wife, not AC, gets that benefit).

I agree the sudden legal marriages are a significant clue if we can figure out why.

I also think who they chose to marry may provide insight. We can’t really sleuth Melani and Alex’s new spouses here, but I wonder if these couples had been together for a while (perhaps secretly) or if the couplings happened suddenly. Does anybody know?

I definitely don’t know but Melani and her new spouse were both married to other people until roughly the same time frame last year. One divorce was in August one in October, and their new marriage was in November.

 

[indicolite22]

But they are lots of people in Chad's family. His children is one thing, but he also has siblings. His brother issued a statement that suggests brother is very unhappy with the situation (was not happy when he found out Chad remarried so soon after Tammy died), and wants Chad to cooperate. So some people could very well be talking to the police.

I was under the impression that his brother had not been in contact with Chad for a while. IF Chad introduced Lori to his family, it was probably to close relatives. This could have happened during the Thanksgiving vacation. Again, I don't see many people being there.

 

[snoflake20]

Both Melani and Lori have custody battles on the horizon. If they are married and can show they are in a stable relationship with husbands who have or have raised their own children they may stand a better chance of getting custody or at least joint custody. Assuming the attempted murder and suspicious deaths are resolved. Even if the deaths end up as not criminally motivated, the murder attempt does appear to implicate the Lori/Alex/Melani trio. MOO.

They all needed new places to live, no money and bad rental history? ( not sure this is true for MB/P but it is of AC) and perhaps their new spouses weren’t ok with just living together due to their religious beliefs? MOO

 

[nopynono]

Something has been bugging me about the Vegas marriages and even Lori and Chad's marriage, and what they say about motivations. Maybe someone can help me flesh it out.

I think the marriages may point much more heavily to money/legal motivation than to "cult cleansing"/must marry someone in the fold, or anything else religion-related. And, in turn, if the marriages were more money/legality motivated than religiously motivated, maybe the disappearance of the kids is less likely to be religiously-motivated, too. I don't know if that helps at all narrowing down where the kids could be, but at least it gives me more hope they are alive, not dead in some cult-mission-from-god-these-kids-are-dark-spirits scenario.

In LDS theology, a marriage--a legal, civil, piece-of-paper marriage--is an earthly thing "of man." A temple sealing is what is important and focused on. It's a saving ordinance, which means you can't get to (the highest degree of) heaven without it. A temple sealing for a live couple (as opposed to proxy sealings for the dead) is most often both a legal marriage and religious ordinance. The temple sealer is a legal officiant. But some couples are first married outside the temple in a regular wedding ceremony, and later are sealed in the temple. In that case, the sealing ceremony is just that: a sealing, not a marriage.

Now, we know Chad et. al. had one foot in the mainstream church and one foot in the fringe/possibly his own church. As such, maybe he holds no stock in the regular Mormon temple and the sealings there. But then you see a lot of these fringe groups performing their own marriages, and bypassing civil marriages--civil marriages aren't what "count" anyway.

But there is some reason(s) that this group of supposed anti-government religious fanatic cultists wanted government civil marriages. I can only think it's because they wanted some advantage(s) that civil marriages provide, and they obviously wanted them *quickly.* So, what advantages??? Community assets? Automatic beneficiary in case of death? Spousal privilege barring testifying against spouse (which has exceptions that vary from state to state)? Something else I'm not thinking of? Health insurance ?!?!? (I don't think anyone but MB's spouse is likely to have a company-sponsored plan.)

The other reason for a civil marriage is because it makes one look more above-board to one's children/family/friends. But then, it would be just as easy to lie and say a marriage had been performed out of state, even if it hadn't. I guess since we still don't have a record of the Daybell-Vallow marriage, that could still be the case. Also, if one is still holding to LDS standards, a marriage (civil or temple) takes having sex from the realm of grievous sin to "go for it" (sex outside of marriage is a sin). Or maybe they just *wanted* to actually be married, and since they couldn't go to the temple, they did Vegas (or Hawaii or wherever, for Chad and Lori). Chad and Lori may have been able to get married in the temple, actually, but not likely for Melanie, don't know about Zulema or Alex. Women can't be sealed to more than one person at a time (civil divorce doesn't dissolve a sealing), and you have to answer affirmatively to certain behavioral/belief standards to go in the temple.

Just my ramblings that I'm not feeling able to put to words. Does anyone get what I am trying to say? Why these quick civil marriages that don't hold religious weight?

All of the above is MOO.

I cant remember where, but I've seen another reference to marriage recently. I think it was something about Shawn Littlebear (runs in Chad's circle) having to be married to accept some sort of godly mission.

 

[nopynono]

I thought I saw the Joe Ryan postmortem examination on here a week ago as well as on FB, but apparently that wasn't the case and it was just on FB. I agree it isn't an autopsy. With Adam Herbets releasing this without any sourced/quoted comment from law enforcement, I'm going to take it as his own words until I see otherwise. Perhaps someone sent it to him from FB, highlighted already. FYI, a family member of Joe's made some comments on social media about the examination/him/his death/his relationship with Lori/his relationship with Tylee/his relationship with Colby/his childhood. You could find them if you want. Since we can't discuss that kind of stuff I guess I will make some observations of my own.

Judging by Joe Ryan's LinkedIn photo he was a fit and muscular man but doesn't look as tall as the report says he is. So, who knows how accurate his BMI. He also had some high stress jobs per LinkedIn and had custody battles that took a financial toll and likely an emotional toll, on top of a rough childhood. All of this could lead to a high strung individual who is unhealthy in more ways than one.

We see from the court filings we've pulled, and comments from at least one VI, that like with most divorces and custody battles, there was a lot of he-said, she-said between Joe and Lori. As easy as it is for us to look negatively at anything Lori says or does, VI(s) have corroborated some of the she-said, and they're not the only one(s). The whole Joe Ryan situation is pretty murky.

(That doesn't mean it was okay of Lori to sic Alex on Joe.)

The Cox family member on the Gray Hughes video says that Lori got $75,000 when Joe died. They didn't say Tylee got it, they said Lori got it. I don't know if they know what they are talking about, or if this is accurate at all. From what I can see, Colby Ryan was living with this family member or at least in their town for a couple of years, so they may have had good insider knowledge of the circumstance. Or not. Family member speculated that this is what gave Lori the idea of getting rid of Charles. In other words, that Lori didn't have anything to do with Joe's death, but that it set in motion the other events. Again, speculation, both the family member's and mine.

I've seen it happen before where when someone dies their ex spouse is entitled to their benefits/accounts. JR never remarried, Lori was his last spouse, so its not unheard of that the money went directly to her.

 

[snoflake20]

I cant remember where, but I've seen another reference to marriage recently. I think it was something about Shawn Littlebear (runs in Chad's circle) having to be married to accept some sort of godly mission.

I read this on the LDS Energy Healing/Emotion Code Exposed Facebook page. It was in a screenshot from an owner of the media company we can’t talk about: saying Littlebear was about to receive a special calling but couldn’t do that till he was married. Definitely recommend people check that page out for more information about the “cult”. They don’t care about a virtual cease and desist. MOO

 

[utahobserver]

Something has been bugging me about the Vegas marriages and even Lori and Chad's marriage, and what they say about motivations. Maybe someone can help me flesh it out.

I think the marriages may point much more heavily to money/legal motivation than to "cult cleansing"/must marry someone in the fold, or anything else religion-related. And, in turn, if the marriages were more money/legality motivated than religiously motivated, maybe the disappearance of the kids is less likely to be religiously-motivated, too. I don't know if that helps at all narrowing down where the kids could be, but at least it gives me more hope they are alive, not dead in some cult-mission-from-god-these-kids-are-dark-spirits scenario.

In LDS theology, a marriage--a legal, civil, piece-of-paper marriage--is an earthly thing "of man." A temple sealing is what is important and focused on. It's a saving ordinance, which means you can't get to (the highest degree of) heaven without it. A temple sealing for a live couple (as opposed to proxy sealings for the dead) is most often both a legal marriage and religious ordinance. The temple sealer is a legal officiant. But some couples are first married outside the temple in a regular wedding ceremony, and later are sealed in the temple. In that case, the sealing ceremony is just that: a sealing, not a marriage.

Now, we know Chad et. al. had one foot in the mainstream church and one foot in the fringe/possibly his own church. As such, maybe he holds no stock in the regular Mormon temple and the sealings there. But then you see a lot of these fringe groups performing their own marriages, and bypassing civil marriages--civil marriages aren't what "count" anyway.

But there is some reason(s) that this group of supposed anti-government religious fanatic cultists wanted government civil marriages. I can only think it's because they wanted some advantage(s) that civil marriages provide, and they obviously wanted them *quickly.* So, what advantages??? Community assets? Automatic beneficiary in case of death? Spousal privilege barring testifying against spouse (which has exceptions that vary from state to state)? Something else I'm not thinking of? Health insurance ?!?!? (I don't think anyone but MB's spouse is likely to have a company-sponsored plan.)

The other reason for a civil marriage is because it makes one look more above-board to one's children/family/friends. But then, it would be just as easy to lie and say a marriage had been performed out of state, even if it hadn't. I guess since we still don't have a record of the Daybell-Vallow marriage, that could still be the case. Also, if one is still holding to LDS standards, a marriage (civil or temple) takes having sex from the realm of grievous sin to "go for it" (sex outside of marriage is a sin). Or maybe they just *wanted* to actually be married, and since they couldn't go to the temple, they did Vegas (or Hawaii or wherever, for Chad and Lori). Chad and Lori may have been able to get married in the temple, actually, but not likely for Melanie, don't know about Zulema or Alex. Women can't be sealed to more than one person at a time (civil divorce doesn't dissolve a sealing), and you have to answer affirmatively to certain behavioral/belief standards to go in the temple.

Just my ramblings that I'm not feeling able to put to words. Does anyone get what I am trying to say? Why these quick civil marriages that don't hold religious weight?

All of the above is MOO.

Great thoughts! These marriages are a key of some sort.

 

[utahobserver]

Not sure what she is doing. The case is in Arizona. She can't just start a new one in another state. As it is, just last week she filed a response to the petition to stop paying spousal support. Since BB has custody there isn't a reason to pay her anything.

Would you be able to point me where you found this recent petition she filed?
MOO - It is just too bizarre if Melani is living in Rexburg establishing a new life with her new spouse, attending mainstream services as mentioned by a poster. She has a trove of information for LE. And surely Alex’s wife must know something....