IDI: Whats your problem?

[BBB167893]

My attempt at W.C. Fields.

Try Groucho Marx:

"As the quote above proves, you can't make a cow outta hamboiger and you can't make a lawyer outta Wood."

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Just keep in mind that this is legal-feagle palaver. At the end of the day, if the tech says "consistent," then you're screwed.

Really? PR and JR "consistent" fibers were found, yet they weren't screwed. Instead they were exhonerated. Why is that?

 

[WHITEFANG]

Quite so.



Apples and handgrenades, Fang. Besides, if you want to talk about how the Supreme Court screwed the works in regard to this case, I'm your man.

details, the "little" things, is my point. She wasn't a SCJ at the time. The poor old sod locked in jail for 10 years, unnecessarily, has written about the importance of what may appear to be these kinds of "small" legal matters. I'll find it and pass it along to you if you'd like.

 

[MurriFlower]

Yeah, it's a freakin' laugh riot.

No, just good old-fashioned mean-spiritedness.

Aw shucks, you think too highly of me LOL.

Hope you don't mind if I borrow that quote, there seems to be a lot of it going around.

 

[BBB167893]

Really? PR and JR "consistent" fibers were found, yet they weren't screwed. Instead they were exhonerated. Why is that?

The Boulder DA's office. Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

I should change that. Instead of,

At the end of the day, if the tech says "consistent," then you're screwed,

I should say,

At the end of the day, if the tech says "consistent," then you're screwed, provided the prosecutor actually knows how to put a case together.

 

[BBB167893]

details, the "little" things, is my point. She wasn't a SCJ at the time. The poor old sod locked in jail for 10 years, unnecessarily, has written about the importance of what may appear to be these kinds of "small" legal matters. I'll find it and pass it along to you if you'd like.

No need.

 

[BBB167893]

Aw shucks, you think too highly of me LOL.

My point is, no matter what your opinion of it is, it's a far cry from "someone who never said a bad word about anyone through the whole ordeal." Fang has apparently swallowed that Ramsey BS and expects us to do so. Been there, done that, moved on!

Hope you don't mind if I borrow that quote, there seems to be a lot of it going around.

Chicken or egg?

 

[MurriFlower]

My point is, no matter what your opinion of it is, it's a far cry from "someone who never said a bad word about anyone through the whole ordeal." Fang has apparently swallowed that Ramsey BS and expects us to do so. Been there, done that, moved on!

No one said she was "Saint Patricia". She would have needed to be (presuming her innocence) not to have wanted to strike back, even by proxy. Yes, I can see it as giving a 'warm glow' after they way he had treated her.

Chicken or egg?

Ah yes, the eternal question.

 

[WHITEFANG]

No one said she was "Saint Patricia". She would have needed to be (presuming her innocence) not to have wanted to strike back, even by proxy. Yes, I can see it as giving a 'warm glow' after they way he had treated her.

Ah yes, the eternal question.

I thought I read all the posts describing her role in the Globe matter. What is it she did, exactly? Don't bother, I'll look it up.

 

[WHITEFANG]

SUPERDAVE: You're right. I do have the power...I HAVE ALL THE POWER IN THE WORLD!

you do, but i didn't ask you to stop what you're doing.

 

[WHITEFANG]

SUPERDAVE: You're right. I do have the power...I HAVE ALL THE POWER IN THE WORLD!

Super, kindly remove what you posted as my request.

 

[WHITEFANG]

"What's more, the garrote used to strangle JonBenet, made of rope and the broken end of one of Patsy Ramsey's paintbrushes, was an elaborate instrument of death—an unlikely tool for the Ramseys to have fashioned in the panicked minutes after allegedly striking her. Smit discovered a wood splinter, apparently from the brush handle, on the carpet just outside the room where she was found. Police found fibers from the same carpet on a baseball bat in the bushes outside the house, leading Smit to believe the killer used it to bludgeon JonBenet. DNA found under JonBenet's fingernails and in her underpants was male, but did not match John Ramsey's."



"The Boulder police were skeptical of Smit's stun-gun theory, and showed some of the autopsy pictures to Arapahoe County coroner Dr. Michael Doberson, who had researched stun-gun wounds. Doberson said he didn't think the marks were from a stun gun. But recently, NEWSWEEK asked Doberson to review Smit's stun-gun evidence.


Doberson says the police never showed him Smit's pictures comparing the size and orientation of the marks with the electrical contacts on the Air Taser.


He now calls Smit's stun-gun theory 'compelling.'"


Dr. Cyril Wecht M.D. staunch advocate that the Ramsey's murdered their daughter said, "If you inflict a blow like that on someone whose heart is beating," he asserts, "the heart doesn't stop, because the cardiac and respiratory centers are at the base of the brain. You're not damaging that with a blow to the top of the head. It'll become compromised as the brain swells, but initially there's no compromise. They control your heart and lungs. The heart continues to beat. The blood continues to flow. But in the Ramsey case, they got less than a teaspoon and a half of blood. If you have a beating heart and the carotid arteries are carrying blood, this person doesn't die right away. That means that blow was inflicted when she was already dead or dying."

The strangulation occurred before the head was smashed in according to prominent forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht.

In an interview with KUSA-TV, JonBenet's pediatrician, Francesco Beuf, said he never saw any indication that the child had ever experienced sexual abuse.
"I can tell you as far as her medical history is concerned there was never any hint whatsoever of sexual abuse," he said. "I didn't see any hint of emotional abuse or physical abuse. She was a very much loved child, just as her brother."
Beuf said that as a pediatrician he sees all sorts of children and he can normally tell whether a child is happy.
Beuf described JonBenet as "just a wonderful, happy kid who had the strength to deal with some very tough situations with regard to her mother's illness."

John Douglas FBI profiler
Douglas: And here is a young child, such force cracking her skull. This is not a crime of parents. Parents certainly kill. But not these kinds of parents.

Indeed, Douglas says, even when parents commit murder, it’s not usually as horrific as the scene at the Ramsey’s.

The Ramseys described to Douglas the horrific details of what they said happened in those next few frantic moments.

Douglas: It was a real emotional scene for the family, putting the child in front of the Christmas tree as they’re trying to rub the skin, the body is cold, the mother’s hysterical, the father’s hysterical, the minister is there, neighbors running in and out, so there really isn’t a crime scene...

The desperate rescue attempt, which completely contaminated any evidence at the scene, painted a picture of a family in agony, Douglas said, and he told Dateline this week that he couldn’t believe the Ramseys he encountered in his interview were capable of such brutality.

Douglas: When parents kill, there’s generally a softening of the crime scene. Where they take a blanket, cover up the child, roll the child over, face down or something like that. The child was found, JonBenet was face up. Her hands were tied together. Her head was off to the side. She had a piece of duct tape over her mouth.

And now, looking back nine and half years later, Douglas can’t shake the conclusions he first made about the case:

Douglas: I came to a very quick resolution that they’re barking up the wrong tree. This investigation is going in the wrong direction here.

JonBenet was strangled to death and then struck with a violent blow to her head which fractured her skull about 8 inches in length and created a large commuted fracture, as well, according to Dr. Wecht. Theories that she was the victim of an accidental blow to her head first, rest moot before the expertise and experience of this forensic pathologist. Whoever the perpetrator of this vicious act, he spared the massive blow until she was already gone. Neither the Ramsey's nor anyone else would have reason to be concerned with camouflaging the true cause of death.

Built upon this foundation, new, pertinent theories may one day help investigators to identify the killer of JonBenet

 

[DeeDee249]

JonBenet was strangled to death and then struck with a violent blow to her head which fractured her skull about 8 inches in length and created a large commuted fracture, as well, according to Dr. Wecht. Theories that she was the victim of an accidental blow to her head first, rest moot before the expertise and experience of this forensic pathologist. Whoever the perpetrator of this vicious act, he spared the massive blow until she was already gone. Neither the Ramsey's nor anyone else would have reason to be concerned with camouflaging the true cause of death.

Built upon this foundation, new, pertinent theories may one day help investigators to identify the killer of JonBenet

I hope so.

As far as I know, Wecht didn't say that she was already dead when she was struck on the head, but he did feel that it happened very close to the strangulation. If there is a quote available where he stated that he believed she was already dead, please let me know where it came from. I read his book, but don't recall that he said she was already dead. He did feel she was dying quickly, which is why there was not more massive swelling or blood loss that would have some through her nose, mouth, ears. That is how I understood his comments.
The term "accidental" is also confusing when it comes to this head blow. There is "accidental" as in falls onto something that punches a hole in the skull or "accidental" as in being slammed hard into something that punches a hole in the skull. And "accidental" as in "already holding a flashlight and bashing her when she screams". In those 2 cases, the fracture (and death) were unintentional (i.e. accidental), but the slamming or bashing was intentional.

 

[WHITEFANG]

"That means that blow was inflicted when she was already dead or dying." WECHT

Joni was strangled and died or was dying; then the head trauma occurred. My wish/opinion is that she was either unconscious, (gone) or dead, (gone) and thus did not feel the pain of that final assault to her body. WF

 

[MurriFlower]

"That means that blow was inflicted when she was already dead or dying." WECHT

Joni was strangled and died or was dying; then the head trauma occurred. My wish/opinion is that she was either unconscious, (gone) or dead, (gone) and thus did not feel the pain of that final assault to her body. WF

There has always seemed to be an overwhelming belief on this forum that the head bash occurred well before the strangle. In fact, many RDI theories are based on just this premise. I initially felt that it may have been unintentionally inflicted as well. But it's been something that's worried me as to why there was no external swelling, bleeding and bruising and that it wasn't noticed until well into the autopsy. So it now seems clear to me that the bash and strangle occurred at the same time. Without going into too much detail, it appears strangling is not achieved quickly, so the bash in conjunction would still the victim and hasten the end.

This further confirms my rejection of RDI, but doesn't help much in identifying the IDI unfortunately.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

"That means that blow was inflicted when she was already dead or dying." WECHT

Joni was strangled and died or was dying; then the head trauma occurred. My wish/opinion is that she was either unconscious, (gone) or dead, (gone) and thus did not feel the pain of that final assault to her body. WF

WF while your wishes are admirable, to me it seems like a mischaracterization: as if the perpetrator had some compassion wrapping JBR up in a blanket? Starting to sound like RDI sugarcoating as if the garrote and 2nd ligature were placed gently as a prop, and JBR's skull was fractured from an unfortunate and unintentional accident. See what I mean?

Its only when we are able to accurately characterize the crime that a true and sincere search for the perpetrator can begin. I suggest using this characterization:

"The person who did this crime is an evil person beyond imagination."

--John Ramsey, 1997

 

[MurriFlower]

GHB - easily made, 5-20 minutes to take effect, tases salty/soapy so best taken in orange/pineapple (anything acidic masks the taste), makes you happy, relaxed, sleepy. BUT how long after death can it be detected in the stomach contents?

http://everything2.com/title/GHB

 

[MurriFlower]

In low doses GHB is a CNS depressant, sometimes referred
to as sedatives and tranquilizers, and has similar effects
like alcohol. It can induce a sense of calm, relieve anxiety
and cause generalized relaxation. When combined with alco-
hol and other CNS depressants, it can cause severe lethargy,
mental confusion, coma and even breathing difficulties . As
of November 2000, the DEA documented 71 GHB-related
deaths. The number of reported GHB-related deaths proba-
bly underestimates the true number, since GHB does not
remain in the body very long and is usually not tested for at
autopsy.

 

[DeeDee249]

Usually. But in the case of a child murder, they'd test for anything. JB's toxicology screen was negative for drugs.

She screamed around midnight, so she was alert enough for that. And for those who say it was Patsy who screamed- it still happened at midnight. 6 hours before Patsy found the note. Some people feel it was Patsy who screamed when she saw JB die. Even it that is what happened, that meant she knew what happened LONG before that 911 call and knew it was no kidnapping.

I think it was JB who screamed.

 

[MurriFlower]

Usually. But in the case of a child murder, they'd test for anything. JB's toxicology screen was negative for drugs.

She screamed around midnight, so she was alert enough for that. And for those who say it was Patsy who screamed- it still happened at midnight. 6 hours before Patsy found the note. Some people feel it was Patsy who screamed when she saw JB die. Even it that is what happened, that meant she knew what happened LONG before that 911 call and knew it was no kidnapping.

I think it was JB who screamed.

The person who heard it was asleep at the time, so maybe she dreamed it and no one screamed.