If It Weren't For....

[Fran Bancroft]

Twizzler, I agree. The only thing about the pineapple, is assuming that she didn't get it herself or with her brother...someone, including an intruder, knew she liked it.


The "posing" and the carat (sp?) make me think it is "unbelievable" that a relative could do this. That is rather advanced esp for a child. Even when you look at cases of relatives molesting, they try to cover it up, but they don't go this far.

I, too, agree that someone broke in through the basement. There was indeed "biased" leaks to the media.

I think what has been done to this family and the accusations are horrific. Can you imagine losing your child this way and then being accused of it?

I will not be guilty of adding to this families burden/pain.

If I found my daughter tied up/out in any fashion, my first instinct would not be to preserve a scene dead or alive, I would release her...who could blame anyone for that?

The "big" spoon sounds like what one of my kids would grab. I wonder if she got it herself. My kids would climb counters to get what they wanted (and be scolded for it). The big spoon wouldn't come from a parent.

 

[Fran Bancroft]

I think it should be considered that Patsy has an identity disorder and that some of her actions were carried out by an alter. This could account for not only her lack of memory of certain events but also the "character" of some aspects ot the crime that she and others say are not typical of her or "a mother", such as the bowl and spoon, which Patsy said was not her set-up or something to that effect.

This could also account for her ability to distance herself from the crime and to attempt to return to a normal life. This can also account for the characteristics of the handwriting in the note, alters write differently from the major persona.

Brother Moon, I think you are more "entertaining" than enlightening. I credit you for thinking outside the box...in fact, you're WAY out there. Perhaps you should consider writing fiction.

BTW, have you given any thought to what such a horrific death and intense media/police pressure would do to your personality? You're already a step or two ahead of the rest of us...it could prove very damning for you

 

[BlueCrab]

Can we see the lie detector information/questions asked that you speak of?

Twizzler,

The following questions were asked by private polygraph expert Ed Gelb and verified by expert Cleve Backster between May 6 and May 17, 2000. The Ramseys had refused to take lie-detector tests given by the FBI. Gelb and Backster are considered among the most highly regarded examiners in the nation.

Both John and Patsy were asked the Series 1 and Series 2 questions. Only Patsy was asked Series 3 questions. The Ramseys answered NO to all questions without showing deception.

Series 1:

1. Did you inflict any of the injuries that caused the death of JonBenet?

2. Regarding JonBenet, did you inflict any of the injuries that caused her death?

3. Were those injuries that resulted in JonBenet's death inflicted by you?

Series 2:

1. Do you know for sure who killed JonBenet?

2. Regarding JonBenet, do you know for sure who killed her?

3. Are you concealing the identity of the person who killed JonBenet?

Series 3:

1. Did you write the ransom note that was found in your house?

2. Regarding the ransom note, did you write it?

3. Is that your handwriting on the ransom note found in your house?

JMO

 

[sissi]

Well then...why does anyone think they are such seasoned criminals as to "fool" the test? Clearly they do not know who killed their child! One surprise,however, is that question " do you know who killed your child", I would have expected them to feel strongly that they must have known him,causing problems with their response. The way Fleet acted, the way the Pughs and Santas seemed, would have made me think it was one of these families ,leaving me to respond, "maybe". imo

 

[TressaRing28]

I think it should be considered that Patsy has an identity disorder and that some of her actions were carried out by an alter. This could account for not only her lack of memory of certain events but also the "character" of some aspects ot the crime that she and others say are not typical of her or "a mother", such as the bowl and spoon, which Patsy said was not her set-up or something to that effect.

This could also account for her ability to distance herself from the crime and to attempt to return to a normal life. This can also account for the characteristics of the handwriting in the note, alters write differently from the major persona.

Just too far fetched Brother Moon.

No way!

Thanks for trying.

 

[BrotherMoon]

Just too far fetched Brother Moon.

No way!

Thanks for trying.

Stuff it, prune.

 

[BrotherMoon]

Brother Moon, I think you are more "entertaining" than enlightening. I credit you for thinking outside the box...in fact, you're WAY out there. Perhaps you should consider writing fiction.

BTW, have you given any thought to what such a horrific death and intense media/police pressure would do to your personality? You're already a step or two ahead of the rest of us...it could prove very damning for you

You're dumb enough to think someone came in through the window, you're dumb enough to come up with lines like a parent wouldn't use a big spoon, so stick your credit up your box.

 

[Camper]

I have NOT read this entire thread yet, so forgive me if I am going places that have been covered.

1. THE Ramsey plane for traveling to Mpls to meet John Jr, was NOT ready, and the pilot was not available to talk to JR when he called the morning of departure and the plane had NOT been fueled is my speculation. This to me means that the pilot was engaged getting someone outta Dodge. THE pilot would qualify to run his own major airline, called LDA aka 'Late Departures Airlines Inc.'

2. Great public relations for the Ramsey family would have been to make MAJOR noises ABOUT someone impersonating their son in Michigan, when a tabloid paper brought forth a story on a man who claimed that John Jr. had tried to hire him for the sum of $10,000 to have a boat accident with JonBenet in the boat. Man came forward in February of the year following JonBenets murder. Major silence from the Ramseys after this story broke.

3. Ramseys bypassing police and local media (local media would have been more helpful for a local murder, imop) and going to Cable network within a day or so to appear on JonBenets behalf ?. Badmouthing the threatment received from network in their DOI book, ie. shabby car that picked them up to take them to the station. This appearance came on the heels of dictate by doctor that Patsy was too frail to be interviewed locally. She was not too frail to fly to east coast and appear on cable network, hmmm.

4. Yep who of us would let a casual acquaintance (Mrs. Stein) go to the Ramseys front door to deal with the Boulder police who had come in response to a 911 call - now think hard on that one!!

5. Steins were NOT called to the Ramsey home the morning of the Ransom note. My theory was that Mr. S had accompanied a tipsy young man back to Georgia and was not available to come to the morning ransom note gathering.

6. Ramsey hiring LAWYERS for Ramsey family members in Georgia, duh, huh, how come?

7. John Walsh did not hire lawyers for his family in another state. Kobe Bryant did not hire lawyers for his wife in another state.

8. Ramsey hired a lawyer for himself and another for his wife as I recall. Correct me on this, my memory has eroded some on this case.

9. Red fibers might equate to JonBenets tale of a Secret Visit from Santa. Could a santa suit have flown out of Boulder that night also?

10. The missing santa doll that someone spirited away after the photo of IT on JonBenets bed.

I will most likely come up with some more stuff as I rethink the whole mess.

I shall finish reading the entire thread, have not at this moment read pages 2,3 and 4.



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[Camper]

So are we now saying Burke got out of bed, put on his hi-tek boots, went to his sister's room, took her downstairs, and molested/murdered her? Why put shoes on at all? I wonder if he dressed out of his PJ's and put on clothes too? Was he wearing these same boots the morning when Fleet took him to his home to avoid the chaos at the house that day?

===========OK sleuthers, tell me how you define the date and time that a footprint was made on a moldy ? surface in a basement where a murdered person was found?

The Ramsey children played and moved about in the family basement, footprints would abound from the shoes they were wearing.

Sorry, but I find your concept faulty.



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[Camper]

Blue crab, you said, "The pineapple also eliminates the intruder theory. JonBenet would not have willingly come downstairs in the middle of the night to snack on pineapple at the breakfast room table with an intruder. JonBenet was obviously secretly downstairs with Burke after the parents had gone to bed.



-------<><Burke said JonBenet walked up the stairs when they came home from the Whites. JR said he carried her up the stairs to bed.

I know many of you have taken a sleeping child from your car, and carried them into your home after a visit or late getting home.

My experience with eight children, is that frequently they will wake and be hungry or whatever. WE (meaning WS sleuthers do NOT know when that bowl was taken out of the refrigerator, so prints may mean nothing. At one time I thought this was a mighty tidbit, but now not so sure.

JonBenet could have gone down and eaten some pineapple, dipped her prescious little fingers into the bowl and had some, without anyone knowing about it. JR said he busily helped Burke with his Christmas model after they came home, IN the basement ?, again my memory is missing on that point WAS it in the basement???

JonBenet had a plate prepped for her to take home from the Whites, with crab on it as Mrs. White said, so that JonBenet would be certain of having some of it before it was gone, so she may NOT have eaten at the White's party, and may in fact have been hungry when she got home. At JonBenets age, playing and having fun, may have been more important to her than eating, AT THE PARTY.

I have not posted on JonBenet forum for quite some time now, it is interesting to revisit and rethink the facts as we know them after time has elapsed. Gives new perspectives on things.




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[VespaElf]

I have not posted on JonBenet forum for quite some time now, it is interesting to revisit and rethink the facts as we know them after time has elapsed. Gives new perspectives on things."


Good to see you back Camper!

Now where is Ned?

 

[twizzler333]

===========OK sleuthers, tell me how you define the date and time that a footprint was made on a moldy ? surface in a basement where a murdered person was found?

The Ramsey children played and moved about in the family basement, footprints would abound from the shoes they were wearing.

Sorry, but I find your concept faulty.



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I hope you didn't find my comment on the footprint as being fact or what I thought. I think the footprint if it is Burke's probably came at some other point in time prior to the murder. I think it is not even significant. There are some on here who preach the "unknown handprint" on the wall in the basement, yet, I think they found that to be a family member's hand print and not significant either but there are those who still taut that it is a significant clue. They lived there, so obviously prints would be there belonging to them.

 

[BrotherMoon]

-------<><Burke said JonBenet walked up the stairs when they came home from the Whites.

Really??????????????????

What's your source for that?

And what Santa doll picture are you talking about?

 

[BlueCrab]

WE (meaning WS sleuthers do NOT know when that bowl was taken out of the refrigerator, so prints may mean nothing.

JonBenet had a plate prepped for her to take home from the Whites,

Camper,

The bowl of pineapple was on the breakfast room table and it didn't get there by itself. It's important to know who put it there.

Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl, so THAT'S how the bowl of pineapple got there because there were no one else's prints on the bowl. (Patsy's fingerprints were also on the bowl, but that's understandable because she was the one who took the bowl out of the dishwasher and put it away.) The bowl of pineapple from which JonBenet ate was on the table along with an empty glass with a spent tea bag in it. Burke was the resident tea drinker.

With regard to the plate of cracked crab that Priscilla prepared for JonBenet, there's no evidence available that indicates it was prepared for JonBenet to take home. JonBenet loved seafood and ate the cracked crab dinner at the White's, probably around 7 o'clock since dinner was served late, and it had been fully digested and was in the large intestine when she died.

The fresh pineapple was in the upper small intestine and not mixed with any other food, which means JonBenet likely ate it 60 to 90 minutes before she died (my estimate).

JMO

 

[Camper]

BlueCrab, I shall respond in blue next to your quoted comments.

Camper,

The bowl of pineapple was on the breakfast room table and it didn't get there by itself. It's important to know who put it there.

Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl, so THAT'S how the bowl of pineapple got there because there were no one else's prints on the bowl. Not so much who put it there, if Patsy does not remember the pineapple then did Burke put the pineapple in the bowl to start with?

(Patsy's fingerprints were also on the bowl, but that's understandable because she was the one who took the bowl out of the dishwasher and put it away.)SO you think Patsy put the bowl away, 'who then' put the pineapple into the bowl>

The bowl of pineapple from which JonBenet ate was on the table along with an empty glass with a spent tea bag in it. Burke was the resident tea drinker.There again did the glass with the tea bag have a time stamped on it? Additionally I have never observed a young boy cleaning up after himself and putting things away, have you? My position is that JonBenet was hungry and just found the bowl 'sitting there' and helped herself to some then went on to bed again. I am entitled to my opinion, which sounds reasonable to me.

With regard to the plate of cracked crab that Priscilla prepared for JonBenet, there's no evidence available that indicates it was prepared for JonBenet to take home. JonBenet loved seafood and ate the cracked crab dinner at the White's, probably around 7 o'clock since dinner was served late, and it had been fully digested and was in the large intestine when she died.

The fresh pineapple was in the upper small intestine and not mixed with any other food, which means JonBenet likely ate it 60 to 90 minutes before she died (my estimate). I agree, she ate it in passing and went to bed. I personally think JR's story about bedtime 'activity' when they returned home 'smells'.

JMO

End of quoted passage from BlueCrab post, and my comments in blue.

=======================<><
Brother Moon, how long have you posted on WS on JonBenet? My source for who went up what stairs with whom was covered in the past and was reliable as I recall. Burke was deemed to have been confused about what he saw or did not see upon arriving home that night from the White's.



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[Nehemiah]

Hey Camper! I've missed you, girl. Hope you are doing well.

BrotherMoon, Camper is referring to the Santa Bear that was once on JB's bed and after the murder, the BPD put an "APB" out for the maker of the bear, etc... I think they settled it, however, by discovering that it was supposedly a gift from the last pageant in which she participated.

Camper, I do remember reading about Burke saying that JB walked up the stairs herself. Maybe that was in on of his interviews? I will have to look it up, or perhaps someone else will remember where that was. I have always thought that JB was up when they arrived home that night. Even if the Rs actually do not have knowledge of the perp's identity, I think that they created the scenario of JB going straight to bed in order to distance Burke.

IMO

 

[BrotherMoon]

BlueCrab, I shall respond in blue next to your quoted comments.



End of quoted passage from BlueCrab post, and my comments in blue.

=======================<><
Brother Moon, how long have you posted on WS on JonBenet? My source for who went up what stairs with whom was covered in the past and was reliable as I recall. Burke was deemed to have been confused about what he saw or did not see upon arriving home that night from the White's.



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Source, please.

 

[BrotherMoon]

The fresh pineapple was in the upper small intestine and not mixed with any other food, which means JonBenet likely ate it 60 to 90 minutes before she died (my estimate).

JMO

Thank you for that bit of honesty.

20 to 30 mintues tops, IF it was eaten alone. ETOD is 1 a.m.? Then she ate 'round 'bout midnight.

 

[TLynn]

Hey, Camper - welcome back.

I remember Burke stating JonBenet walked up the stairs with Patsy behind her.

The bowl of pineapple had BOTH Burke & Patsy's prints - you cannot tell from the prints who did what...so BOTH had contact with the bowl.

Twizzler, Patsy says she buys it; but couldn't remember specifically about this pineapple. If the children had not gone to bed yet - Burke would not have had to put his shoes back on - they would've already been on. Until we (ever) see the pictures from the White's on Christmas Night - there are many questions unanswered.


Bluecrab - Patsy "failed" the lie detector test (was it 2 or 3 times) before passing! Or should I say "inconclusive results."

You also mention that Patsy & John have exculpatory evidence with the DNA - if that's your deciphering factor - then you MUST put Burke in there as well. Personally, until the DNA has some worth to it - it means nothing to me. JonBenet didn't take a bath that morning, was playing with neighborhood children, etc.

 

[Camper]

Source, please.

-----<><Just HOW important is it to you in getting Boulder PD or the DA to reopen the case with a new prosecutor? In the scheme of things and perfection in general I would say not very important. Just another thingie that happened that caused my eyebrow on one side of my hed to raise with wonderment, up or down or alone, hmmm. Referencing the stairs in case you missed my point.

I do believe that John Sr. said how he carried her UP the stairs and took off her shoes yah dah yah dah, read to her (WE = WS ers donut know the name of 'the' book either, ?while she was sleepin?? er something like that. You should be able to zero in on that information by wading through the transcripts and reading Johns own words. Then a previous poster gave source for Burkes comment, which I believe is accurate also.

========================Nehemiah just popped in to look around. I picked up a GLOBE at the grocery store today with a photo enhanced picture of JonBenet on the cover that depicts what she would look like today. The header said forensics experts DEMAND that exhumation be done for another autopsy. Connected to the 'stun' gun use or NO stun gun usage. Have not read the story yet.

BrotherMoon, I had asked how long you had sleuthed on WS and you never answered me. Just an oversight I suppose.




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